| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| ralphyde |
Posted - 03/25/2005 : 11:21:38
In the "Educating Dr. Z" thread, Baseball65 made the above statement, which seems to have some truth to it. In trying to understand my wife's extreme resistance to the TMS diagnosis, I've often thought that part of her just doesn't want to get well. See my previous thread, "Extreme resistance to TMS diagnosis by my wife" for details (last updated 3/2).
Can some of you elaborate on this theme, that is, why people need or want their pain? It still has me baffled. Is it because their repressed anger or emotions are too scary, or too painful? |
| 20 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Baseball65 |
Posted - 03/29/2005 : 21:54:51
Hey Moose!
I remember working on two long jobs as a supervisor before my surgery....I WAS looking forward to my surgery,because I thought it was the end of my pain!I only worked because the money was "an offer I could not refuse"
Funny,I was making $375 a day working on a low budget film as the paint "boss"....it was agreed with the designer that I did NOT have to do any of the physical stuff(I mixed colors,ordered paint,made samples and pointed).I demanded a high salary if I was to put off my surgery for three months.I was one of the highest paid employees
(Linda Hamilton,the star,was working on "spec"..for points on the box office gross)
Anyways,I'm Vic-ed out of my mind,laying on an ice pack with my feet up on my tool box,when around the corner comes the producer
I tried to scramble to my feet,but to no avail.
"Here's your million dollar painter...the stoned one laying down on the ice !"  
That day they came and planted bright brass appliques right in the middle of a house I had just painted and aged down.It shot in three days and they changed EVERYTHING....and the sciatica moved into the OTHER leg!!!
Anyways,...its funny in retrospect....I make that per week now!!! and I don't even get a break in 8 hours.
ahhhh the good old days,the money was rolling but so was the TMS..
Those people on Healthboards back forum list their surgeries and procedures like medals won in combat!
Thank god I'm so impatient and din't go back for more "vacations"
give 'em hell...maybe you can save one or two.....don't get too combative though...you know how we can get sometimes.
"Do not fire unti you can see the whites of their MRI's!"
peace
Baseball65 |
| verdammt |
Posted - 03/29/2005 : 18:43:13
Interesting observation, moose1. It makes us realize how far we've come.
At the same time, I wonder if there's a group of genuinely happy, healthy people out there who have gone a step further. Maybe they're reading our posts and shaking their heads. |
| moose1 |
Posted - 03/28/2005 : 17:38:34
If you wanna see some people truly hooked on their secondary pain gain, check out the Back Pain room in Yahoo chat. I swear these people are addicted to their back "problems." They talk about back surgery as if it's an upcoming vacation in the Bahamas and they can't wait to get there, and for many it's their third or fourth time, and many are on disability (there's a shocker for ya). I thought about tossing Sarno in there just for some entertaining flame bait but figured it wasn't worth my time.
Moose1 |
| miehnesor |
Posted - 03/27/2005 : 13:19:35
quote:
Originally posted by ralphyde
But I went through big psychological changes while there. My emotional side, which had sunk into the unconscious at age 11 when my mother died unexpectedly (to me) of cancer, now returned to the surface with a vengeance (after my father died), and I went on an emotional roller-coaster for several years.
Death of a parent for a child even as old as 11 can still be felt as abandonment with the accompanying feelings of associated shame that need to be grieved as an adult. |
| ralphyde |
Posted - 03/27/2005 : 11:52:16
Hi Baseball65,
Thanks for that very interesting post. My Unitarian background was that in 1969, I left my successful corporate-suburban career to study for the Unitarian ministry, where I thought I could work for social change. I fit in with the intellectual humanistic freethinking heretical bent of that denomination (though raised unchurched Episcopalian), and besides, that's where all the draft cards were being burned in protest to the Vietnam war.
But I went through big psychological changes while there. My emotional side, which had sunk into the unconscious at age 11 when my mother died unexpectedly (to me) of cancer, now returned to the surface with a vengeance (after my father died), and I went on an emotional roller-coaster for several years.
I found that life was far richer than my previous existential worldview, and I studied Carl Jung to understand my new world, also dropped out of theological school, realizing that as an introvert, and newly reborn emotionally, I couldn't live in the fishbowl of being a minister. Besides, I had too much of life yet to live.
But I still admire the Unitarians, a very well meaning bunch, though very much in their heads, dedicating to make our world a happier, more just and loving place. And some of my best friends went on to become dedicated and successful Unitarian ministers.
I took a different path. As Jung said, "To know the human mind, one must wander with the human heart through the world."
Thanks for your comments.
Best,
Ralph
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| Baseball65 |
Posted - 03/26/2005 : 21:11:42
Hi Ralph.
Good guess...I was raised Unitarian-Universalist,though I knew none of their doctrines growing up...most of the youth camps and youth groups were excuses to get high and drink(like our parents in the Unitarian church)
If William Ellery Channing were alive today he would be shocked at the group of Secular agnostics and their sophistry that is the fabric of modern Unitarianism.
When I was 14 I had to ask my mom if we even believed in God...we studied Buddhism,Islam,Catholicism,Zoroastrianism and the protestant faiths,but never were told the fundamental doctrines of our own "faith"
In Adulthood I have studied Channing ,Arminianism and Universal Salvation and have
my own opinions on them....If they were still preached
from the pulpit of a Unitarian Church,I would perhaps return...unfortunately,to date,I have found no such fellowship.
I have found a very unique fellowship where our pastor reinforces the message that "we don't know what we don't know"...and that "Love pays the Bills"....I have a feeling that if Channing were alive he would join OUR fellowship and leave the Unitarians to their intellectualism....he was a christian(a word our church is thinking of dumping based on all the negative connotations associated with it)
They fail ,in their attempt to be "right" to make any sort of declaration at all.
Sorry if I sound a little cynical,but a decade or two around them left me completely uneducated as to any sort of consistent theology....maybe because God is rarely discussed.
Like I said though....excellent guess!!
do I smell like wine and cheese?
There were a TON of wine and cheese tasting parties in the U/U church
peace,love and woodstock
To question IS the answer...but there
eventually has to be SOME answer.
Marc
Baseball65 |
| ladyrat |
Posted - 03/26/2005 : 17:33:11
What a great, insightful thing to say. It had not occured to me that the guilt/punishment dynamic could be the culprit. I had been trying to work out what was making me angry and causing the pain, but guilt has been such a big part of other emotional problems in my life, it could certainly be at work here with TMS.
quote:
Originally posted by verdammt
Why choose pain?
Guilt can be a factor. We feel bad about things we did in the past so we punish ourselves. In the back of our minds, we tell ourselves that we're bad people and we don't deserve to be happy. We deserve to suffer.
If you're a sensitive person with a strong sense of justice, you probably can't escape being your own judge, jury and executioner/torturer.
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| lobstershack |
Posted - 03/26/2005 : 15:48:45
I can relate to this thread wholeheartedly. There have been many times when I found myself panicing over the prospect of my pain leaving; something I found to be a truly scary thought indeed. In the beginning of my mindbody journey, this was a major issue: on the one hand I was trying so hard--too hard in fact--to adhere to the TMS principles, but at the same time part of me wanted the pain to stay and would actually rationalize reasons over why having chronic physical symptoms "wasn't that bad after all." In the moment it all seemed so convincing.
Now, 6 months later, that feeling has abated quite a bit, but I have found that, as Rick Carson and many others have said, just simply noticing the thought as opposed to fighting it is the way to go. Heck, it took me all of 6 months just to realize that it is essential for me to begin living in the here and now, as opposed to inside my head with the TMS gremlin.
Seth |
| smth416 |
Posted - 03/26/2005 : 13:02:41
I feel the idea that most sufferers want or need thier pain is true but might be misunderstood. Dr. Sarno tells us that these thoughts are buried deep in our unconsience.
When you think about your own pain, doi you "befefit" from it at all?
How many people would reject the Mindbody cure because their childish unconsience would rather do without the pressures of working everyday, or want that money coming in a pending lawsuit, or perhaps cannot see living without those soothing meds. Maybe your brain would much rather deal with familiar pain then the unbearable pain that facing or deepest hurts would cause.
Although the idea of wanting or needing the pain may seem ridiculous to you, can you see how another may benefit from it. Good luck. Al
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| ralphyde |
Posted - 03/25/2005 : 20:33:52
And thanks, Baseball65 and Sandy for your thoughts, too. They are also very relevant. And Baseball65, was that fellowship you joined a Unitarian fellowship by any chance? Just wondering.
Ralph |
| ralphyde |
Posted - 03/25/2005 : 20:24:20
There are some good ideas in what you've said, Verdammt. But as far as her not really loving hang gliding, that's not one of them. She had been flying for eight years and had her advanced rating before she even met me. We were introduced on a mountaintop. I'd been flying for 19 years at that point.
During our first six years together before her back pain, it was usually Julie that wanted to "chase the wind," and go flying, and I was usually ready to go too. And we had some fantastic times flying together for hours at a time.
And hang gliding isn't as dangerous as some people think. It's mostly a matter of judgment, and launching and landing are the only potentially dangerous times other than severe weather, which can be avoided.
On the other hand, I have had a few poor launches or landings with her over the years (though never seriously injured,(knock wood)), and she could be unconsciously worried about me though I am in good physical shape.
But I could never willingly give up hang gliding. "For once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the earth with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there you will always long to return." (quote attributed to Leonardo da Vinci, who although he designed hang gliders never got to fly one as far as I know.)
Here's our website in case anyone is interested: http://skyfun.ms11.net/
Thanks for the stimulating thoughts.
Best,
Ralph
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| ssjs |
Posted - 03/25/2005 : 19:51:28
One thing I have learned is that people do not want to admit they are depressed and people do not want to HEAR that someone is depressed.
If your wife says she is sad or mad to you or anyone else, many peoples reaction would be to tell her to buck up. Get over it. Take some medication and go on.
If she says she has a backache, or any other kind of physical ache, people are more likely to react with a sympathetic ear. " oh I know how you feel...my back has hurt too...sit down and rest...I'll do it for you, don't worry!"
Somewhere in peoples head, it seems easier to go through the pain and feel the "caring" as opposed to having to care for ourself.
And ironically for most of us...once we care for ourselves, it is actually easier and more pleasent for others to care about us too!
Sandy |
| Baseball65 |
Posted - 03/25/2005 : 13:53:58
Guilt seeks punishment.
Water seeks lower ground.
Energy takes the least path of resistance.
My own wife had fought me tooth and nail regarding religious/spiritual/philosophical ideas our entire marriage...we eventually just "didn't go there".
Recently we joined a fellowship where the pastor preaches from the pulpit what I have preached in private my whole life.
My wife apologized to me profoundly the other night.She said that until she heard these ideas from someone else,she didn't believe that what I said/did/professed had any substantiating merit.
Most people go with the herd and never venture into their own life to find out what's in it......I call them somnambulists from the Jerry Mander literature.
They aren't bad or evil or wrong...they are just mean in the truest sense of the world....they are safely in the middle,and they fill up the majority of the space on the planet.Rank and file...average...mundane.
You seem to have projected your own insight and uniqueness into her....people who really feel have a hard time understanding that they are in the minority,and find nothing but frustration when they try to waken a somnambulist.
Let her sleep.
peace
Baseball65 |
| verdammt |
Posted - 03/25/2005 : 13:25:47
quote:
Originally posted by ralphyde
we had a wonderfully happy life before her back pain, the happiest years of her life, she said. We both loved hang gliding, and for her it was her greatest joy.
Just a thought...are you sure your wife really loved hang gliding? Or is it possible she just went along with it because she wanted to please you? Don't take this the wrong way, but you're 67 and you're doing something that most 40-year-olds would shy from. Maybe this pain thing is her way out of a scary situation. Someone may have commented on how dangerous hang gliding is, and it started eating away at her, even subconsciously. Maybe she's afraid something will happen to you. She's had a rough childhood and can't bear another loss. If you get hurt, she might blame herself. At the same time, she doesn't want to take the joy of the activity away from you. She's between a rock and a hard place. TMS to the rescue!
Of course, you can't just give it up now to please her. She'll probably feel guilty and it'll make things worse. It has to seem like your own decision. Maybe you should both take up some new activity together. Something less hazardous, like ballroom dancing. Sweep her off her feet! |
| verdammt |
Posted - 03/25/2005 : 12:21:28
quote:
Originally posted by moose1
I never understood the secondary gain thing at all. Why the hell would anyone want to be in chronic pain?
You're being logical, Mr. Spock, er, sorry...moose1.
To quote the good doctor: "The realm of the unconscious is not logical or reasonable like the conscious mind." (Mindbody Rx,p.144)
And again,
"In the realm of the emotions, we have two minds and must not make the mistake of judging the unconscious mind by the accepted rules of logic and rationality that are characteristic of the conscious mind." (ibid, p.172) |
| moose1 |
Posted - 03/25/2005 : 11:50:25
I never understood the secondary gain thing at all. Why the hell would anyone want to be in chronic pain? When my crippling leg pain went away I was so ecstatic I just about crawled out of my skin with joy. I've known plenty of guilt and self-loathing in my life...I never once wanted to have excuciating pain.
Moose1 |
| ralphyde |
Posted - 03/25/2005 : 11:42:45
Good point, Verdammt, there might be some guilt and a need to punish herself. |
| verdammt |
Posted - 03/25/2005 : 11:38:52
Why choose pain?
Guilt can be a factor. We feel bad about things we did in the past so we punish ourselves. In the back of our minds, we tell ourselves that we're bad people and we don't deserve to be happy. We deserve to suffer.
If you're a sensitive person with a strong sense of justice, you probably can't escape being your own judge, jury and executioner/torturer. |
| ralphyde |
Posted - 03/25/2005 : 11:38:29
Thanks, Dave, for your thoughts. But the thing is, we had a wonderfully happy life before her back pain, the happiest years of her life, she said. We both loved hang gliding, and for her it was her greatest joy. She continued it for the first year and a half of her back pain, before she gave it up and became worse (same with biking). It's been over 3 1/2 years now, and she still won't give up her physical therapies (craniosacral and chiropractic). She thinks Dr. Sarno is a crackpot, and that I am crazy for believing in him. We can't even talk about it anymore, and all I can do is wait and hope that she'll become desperate enough to give him another try. |
| Dave |
Posted - 03/25/2005 : 11:26:31
quote:
Originally posted by ralphyde
Can some of you elaborate on this theme, that is, why people need or want their pain? It still has me baffled. Is it because their repressed anger or emotions are too scary, or too painful?
I believe so.
For some people the symptoms have become a part of their personality. They can't imagine being without them. It gives them something to focus on, something to talk to others about, something to gain sympathy for.
Take away the pain, and what is left in their lives? Maybe they would have to face the fact that life has not turned out the way they wanted it to, or thought that it would. This would bring up severe feelings of low self-worth. Taking away the physical pain would open the door to emotional pain that they are unwilling to deal with.
This is all happening unconsciously, but I believe it to be the case. Of course, everyone is different... |
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