| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| lia |
Posted - 03/06/2013 : 16:01:14
i'm not sure if my knee pain is TMS or not because i started developing pain in my knees one day while i was exercising. i was also going through some emotional stress at that time though. basically this is the story:
both my knees started hurting way back in december 2012 and the doctor diagnosed me with patellar tendonitis. it's been 2 months going on to 3 and it's getting kind of ridiculous. i want to work out really badly but i can't because i'm afraid that i might aggravate it even further. one doctor told me i have inflammation in my knee and gave me ibuprofen. i took that for two weeks and it did seem to help but i still have pain, "clicking" and squeaking in my knees. my current doctor said i overexerted myself and did too much exercise. i started getting pain while exercising one day. i was dancing and suddenly could barely move my legs anymore. i only danced for around 40 minutes each day and two weeks later, this pain developed. i'm not sure if it's TMS or it's really an overuse injury, since the pain coincides with my exercise. i didn't immediately jump into doing this. i danced for 10-15 minutes each day for around a week before increasing the time to 40 minutes. i've danced like this before to try to lose weight and i also did squats and i never got this type of pain.
i rested and took time off exercising this whole entire time. i didn't have total immobility; i still walked, climbed stairs, did a bit of jumping and running here and there but that's it. i couldn't really avoid those but i think i gave my knees enough rest. 2-3 months is a long time and i don't think this is normal.
i've been stressed lately about my knee pain and suddenly my throat started hurting. talking became such an effort since i had to force every word out and i felt like my voice would give out any second. my dominant arm also starting hurting so much that it hurt to write and use the mouse. i even started using my left hand for everything. i realized that this might be caused by emotional stress so i pushed through the pain and now both my throat and arm are fine. so i'm thinking this might be the case with my knees too?
i started physical therapy two weeks ago and initially it didn't seem to help much but after doing three sessions on 3/2, 3/4 and 3/5, it seems to have gotten a LOT better. on 3/2 though i found out about TMS and started considering the fact that my pain might be TMS.. so i don't know if that has anything to do with it. i asked my therapist if i have inflammation or any structural damage and he said most likely no but he's not sure because i didn't get a MRI. he said i have patellar tracking problems because my knees click but my doctor never told me that. he just said i have patellar tendonitis. my knees were actually quite okay until my doctor told me i have tendonitis and to be careful because injuries will happen much easier. i got scared and regretted exercising. then my legs started feeling weak when walking and i felt like i was back to square one again. they started feeling better again after my physical therapy session on 3/2 but that was around the time i thought about the possibility of TMS.. |
| 20 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| tennis tom |
Posted - 04/02/2013 : 18:11:50
quote:
Originally posted by lia
i have one question. when resuming physical activity, does the pain worsen before it gets better?
Yes it can, too many variables depending on your state of mind and the activity. If you're dancing with someone who stresses you out it may worsen, if you're walking alone in a relaxing environment it may go away in 15-20 minutes like mine does. TMS is the volume control for the pain. Try it and let us know.
G'luck!
tt
==================================================
DR. SARNO'S 12 DAILY REMINDERS:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0dKBFwGR0g
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| lia |
Posted - 04/02/2013 : 15:50:56
thanks tennis tom. your post was very encouraging. and pspa123, my MRI report does mention synovitis. it says there's minimal joint effusion which is suggestive of synovitis and that there's a mild lateral subluxation of the patella. the MRI report on my other knee mentions those plus bursitis.
i have one question. when resuming physical activity, does the pain worsen before it gets better? |
| tennis tom |
Posted - 04/01/2013 : 22:17:01
Hi Lia,
You're story sounds like the typical person with TMS that I've heard here a thousand times. You've had all the tests and seen docs and gotten conflicting DX's and big bad NOCEBOS. If you can see a TMS doc, do so for an unbiased dx, there will be lists of them in my sig below.
You are VERY intelligent for someone your age AND that may be contributing to your symptoms, reading and listening to too many conflicting "scientific sounding" opinions. You had the intelligence and luck to discover TMS, a huge alternative to current medical "thinking". Since this is the TMS board, go with the TMS protocol. Read about TMS and you decide what course you need to follow.
My educated guess, based on reading your posts, is that the percentages are very high in favor that it is TMS, about 80%.
So, JUST DO IT! You've had plenty of rest.
tt
==================================================
DR. SARNO'S 12 DAILY REMINDERS:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0dKBFwGR0g
TAKE THE HOLMES-RAHE STRESS TEST
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holmes_and_Rahe_stress_scale
Some of my favorite excerpts from _THE DIVIDED MIND_ :
http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2605
==================================================
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." Jiddu Krishnamurti
"Pain is inevitable; suffering is optional." Author Unknown
"Happy People Are Happy Putters." Frank Nobilo, Golf Analyst
"Be careful about reading health books. You may die of a misprint." Mark Twain and Balto
"The hot-dog is the noblest of dogs; it feeds the hand that bites it." Dr. Laurence Johnston Peter
"...the human emotional system was not designed to endure the mental rigors of a tennis match." Dr. Allen Fox
======================================================
"If it ends with "itis" or "algia" or "syndrome" and doctors can't figure out what causes it, then it might be TMS." Dave the Mod =================================================
TMS PRACTITIONERS:
John Sarno, MD
400 E 34th St, New York, NY 10016
(212) 263-6035
Here's the TMS practitioners list from the TMS Help Forum:
http://www.tmshelp.com/links.htm
Here's a list of TMS practitioners from the TMS Wiki:
http://tmswiki.org/ppd/Find_a_TMS_Doctor_or_Therapist
Here's a map of TMS practitioners from the old Tarpit Yoga site, (click on the map by state for listings).:
http://www.tarpityoga.com/2007_08_01_archive.html |
| pspa123 |
Posted - 04/01/2013 : 21:21:01
Lia, I think you need a clinician such as a rheumatologist or physiatrist to assess the nature and extent of your swelling. I mean from what you said it could be trivial or it could be enormous. Does your MRI report also mention synovitis, which is more specific than general swelling (effusion) and is specific to the joint lining? At 16 and absent a specific traumatic injury it seems highly unlikely you have done any significant damage to your knees, so unless a clinician tells you there is something very clearly wrong (it seems highly unlikely but there can be rare systemic causes of inflammation) I would probably start with the assumption that it was a psychogenic thing. |
| lia |
Posted - 04/01/2013 : 19:53:53
quote:
Originally posted by eric watson
lia you can call me and ill go over the issue with you ok
no problem, free
i followed your advice and picked up healing back pain by sarno. i will get the great pain deception and also the divided mind. |
| lia |
Posted - 04/01/2013 : 19:49:20
quote:
Originally posted by pspa123
Don't rely on a radiologist. They just do a mechanical reading of the MRI, and virtually any MRI is going to show SOMETHING (although as I recall you are fairly young). At the very least, you need a clinician to tell you if the findings potentially mean anything in relation to pain, then you can make a better assessment of whether they are just incidental (as many or even perhaps most findings are)or signficant. By the way my left knee has been clicking/cracking for decades and does not bother me at all, so I wouldn't make too much of a clicking noise.
you're right. i am very young actually, i'm only 16.
i went back to read your comments and you said "I started to have doubts, getting an MRI which found acute synovitis (inflammation of the joint lining) as well as a large effusion (swelling, fluid, etc.) as well as some other stuff that seems less likely to be a real source of pain". that is exactly what my MRI report says. except i'm slightly confused because originally i was diagnosed with tendonitis and now it's synovitis. they're both inflammation but it's two different things.
if i'm not wrong i think you started treatment of TMS on your knees again right? how's it going?
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| eric watson |
Posted - 04/01/2013 : 18:26:24
lia you can call me and ill go over the issue with you ok
no problem, free |
| pspa123 |
Posted - 04/01/2013 : 18:24:48
Don't rely on a radiologist. They just do a mechanical reading of the MRI, and virtually any MRI is going to show SOMETHING (although as I recall you are fairly young). At the very least, you need a clinician to tell you if the findings potentially mean anything in relation to pain, then you can make a better assessment of whether they are just incidental (as many or even perhaps most findings are)or signficant. By the way my left knee has been clicking/cracking for decades and does not bother me at all, so I wouldn't make too much of a clicking noise. |
| lia |
Posted - 04/01/2013 : 18:13:56
Hi all,
i haven't responded for a while but i just got two MRIs for both of my knees and the results say i have inflammation on my knees. my doctor said there's an indication of knee joint effusion and subluxation of the patella. i'm not sure what these mean but he said in simplier terms it's basically a mild patella dislocation (hence why i hear clicking in my knees when i bend them) and inflammation.
so does this mean my knee pain is due to real structural abnormality and not TMS?
quote:
Originally posted by gigalos
Just an example of step two:
What kind of dancing do you do, how much time do you normally spend on dancing? Beside the fact that you like to dance obviously, are there any factors that put pressure on you doing it? Could it be that you push yourself very hard. Is there some kind of social pressure for you to get better? Was there a healthy balance between enjoyment and working hard on getting better for you? Try to be real honest to yourself. Maybe the dancing itself has something to do with the cause (non-physical), maybe you can conclude it has nothing to do with it. It is just an exercise of exploring any potential hidden causes (emotions) of physical discomfort.
take care
i'm sorry i didn't respond in such a long time. i thought about your questions and i do like dancing but i only like doing choreographed dances. what i mean is, i started dancing because i wanted to do a form of exercise in order to improve my health. a year ago i started having some health problems which did make me very depressed for half a year. but when i was dancing, i used it as a form of exercise and i was just randomly dancing while looking at videos of people dancing. i didn't really enjoy doing that and i felt pressured to exercise everyday. i forced myself to do it anyways for the sake of my health. soon my knee pain started and that was what really broke me because not only did i not improve my health, i even developed knee pain.
i'm thinking maybe it's because i didn't enjoy dancing like that so my mind created knee pain so i could stop doing something that i felt forced to do? my MRIs did show structural abnormalities though. at least that's what my doctor (or radiologist rather) told me |
| gigalos |
Posted - 03/09/2013 : 07:05:46
Lia,
If you are too anxious to decide if it is TMS and slowly work through it, maybe you should have a MRI done to reassure you. I didn't and trusted the opinion of my physical therapist, but this is a personal choice. The most we can do is state our suspicion whether it is TMS, based on what you tell us. If I read your story I think the chance is high, but I can't guarantee it 100%.
As you already paid for your treatment, you could at least explore the 'work through it' option with your therapist in a controlled environment, while in the mean time you keep TMS responsible and work on the keys to get better.
If it is TMS and you follow the keys, I don't expect the pain to dissappear instantly, although it could give an instant relief that might surprise you. You have to build confidence in your own body and mind. Acknowledging TMS is one step, finding the things that feed or makes you repress emotions (the cause) is step two. Step three, if necessary, is developing other ways of thinking and acting patterns in daily life.
Just an example of step two:
What kind of dancing do you do, how much time do you normally spend on dancing? Beside the fact that you like to dance obviously, are there any factors that put pressure on you doing it? Could it be that you push yourself very hard. Is there some kind of social pressure for you to get better? Was there a healthy balance between enjoyment and working hard on getting better for you? Try to be real honest to yourself. Maybe the dancing itself has something to do with the cause (non-physical), maybe you can conclude it has nothing to do with it. It is just an exercise of exploring any potential hidden causes (emotions) of physical discomfort.
take care
|
| pspa123 |
Posted - 03/08/2013 : 19:46:27
Lia we cant know if its tms or not. Is there an objective concrete physical finding that closely correlates with the pain? Does the pain seem to move around? Is it worse with stress and anxiety? These are some of the questions to ponder. A no yes yes in response to the above would be suggestive of psychogenic pain. |
| lia |
Posted - 03/08/2013 : 19:02:51
quote:
Originally posted by eric watson
lia read sarnos book healing back pain - while doing that go get steve ozaniches book, the great pain deception
then make sure you always do the 28 keys to healing right here free for you to enjoy
by ace1, and lets not forget nicole sachs, the meaning of truth- she has a powerhouse of info
the first thing is the reminders from sarno on p. 82 on tennis toms post.
then write back in a week or two and talk to us. ok -bless you
i will read those books. the problem right now is deciding whether the pain is really TMS or not. i paid for my physical therapy sessions already so i can't stop all physical treatments. and i don't want to stop without knowing for sure. and that's why i posted here, i wanted some of your opinions. there's no use mentioning this to my doctor because i feel like he would just dismiss it.
is it possible for pain to get better by just acknowledging the fact that the cause might be TMS? |
| shawnsmith |
Posted - 03/07/2013 : 16:41:06
In his keys to healing, Ace writes in key number 12, "Be active if possible independent of the symptoms (not for overcoming your illness, but to be comfortable with your body) and do things you were afraid to do gradually, not to challenge, but just to do them. (I.e. if I play soccer and there is back pain, I will not think of using my back more or strain with it more to get it "used" to activity. I would just play soccer, and if in pain, just accept it and use affirmations if necessary). As you get into the game, you'll probably forget about it. This activity can be slowly and gradually increased as not to increase the strain. You want to coerce you body back to normality."
See all keys here:
http://tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7765&whichpage=1
*************************
“The snow falls, each flake in its appropriate place.” |
| lia |
Posted - 03/07/2013 : 16:29:43
i read that if pain is TMS, then you should start to work through the pain.. but what if it's so painful that you can't work through it? |
| alix |
Posted - 03/07/2013 : 15:53:25
Great find as always Shawn. |
| shawnsmith |
Posted - 03/07/2013 : 14:51:32
"Practicing the Power of Now" -- by Ekhart Tolle (Audio)
Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j61Ul9YOD58&list=UUfay4RTVeZIJBnIQgEIccRA&index=280
Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Otz39Sb58U&list=UUfay4RTVeZIJBnIQgEIccRA&index=279
Part 3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAOWjdYiEuY&list=UUfay4RTVeZIJBnIQgEIccRA&index=277
Part 4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMAgp2dZnEA&list=UUfay4RTVeZIJBnIQgEIccRA&index=278
Part 5
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFzEnN1LOQQ&list=UUfay4RTVeZIJBnIQgEIccRA&index=276
Part 6
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptBDGkZyfB0&list=UUfay4RTVeZIJBnIQgEIccRA&index=275
Part 7
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MU0FLxBr7Xo&list=UUfay4RTVeZIJBnIQgEIccRA&index=274
Part 8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WDMd2W1uUM4&list=UUfay4RTVeZIJBnIQgEIccRA&index=273
Part 9
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jgua001RPD8&list=UUfay4RTVeZIJBnIQgEIccRA&index=272
Part 10
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MVrwtobXzxg&list=UUfay4RTVeZIJBnIQgEIccRA&index=271
Part 11
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0X2-HEf0AfA&list=UUfay4RTVeZIJBnIQgEIccRA&index=270
Part 12
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_vSY6wI25Y&list=UUfay4RTVeZIJBnIQgEIccRA&index=269
Part 13
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pdU7xOHVk3g&list=UUfay4RTVeZIJBnIQgEIccRA&index=268
*************************
“The snow falls, each flake in its appropriate place.” |
| alix |
Posted - 03/07/2013 : 14:02:09
Shawn, I very much like Tolle. I particularly recommend "Practicing the power of now" which manages to be a very practical and to the point "how-to" book but at the same is also very convincing and enlightening. |
| shawnsmith |
Posted - 03/07/2013 : 13:19:56
quote:
Originally posted by Sam908
Shawn, a bit off topic, but I had the privilege of attending two of Krishnamurti's NYC talks at Carnegie Hall, in 1982 and 1983. It was a very moving experience.
Thanks for the heads-up. I see Krishnamurti has many clips on youtube. These mindfulness / spiritual teachers essentially all say the same thing but use different words. I really do enjoy the works of Ekhart Tolle but I know others on this message board don't care much for him. But that's ok too. Whoever or whatever resonates with you and leads to healing is good.
*************************
“The snow falls, each flake in its appropriate place.” |
| andy64tms |
Posted - 03/07/2013 : 12:37:13
Hi Lia,
Pspa123 is still trying to rule out that his pain symptoms are not real or serious. This is something that we all have to do for each pain that we encounter. We have to understand this at a deep level of belief by any means and logic possible.
The basic guidelines and reasons of the how and why the brain manifests pain in different parts of your body are described in Dr. Sarno’s books. It’s essential to read one of them. “Healing Back Pain”, did it for me for basic understanding and as Eric says order “The Great Pain Deception”. It’s a terrific read - almost a thriller. Oh, and be prepared to read them with disbelief and denial at first.
Hi, pspa123
Good luck and welcome,
Andy
Past TMS Experience in 2000, with success.
Stopped Wiki Edu Program in lieu of own journalling
Charlie Horse on neck for 20 years, is almost gone.
Books:
Healing Back Pain
Unlearn your Pain
The Great Pain Deception |
| Sam908 |
Posted - 03/07/2013 : 11:08:49
Shawn, a bit off topic, but I had the privilege of attending two of Krishnamurti's NYC talks at Carnegie Hall, in 1982 and 1983. It was a very moving experience. |
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