| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Sylvia |
Posted - 01/12/2013 : 05:54:18
What % of people do you believe get totally well from their condition? I'm including in this also without an equally unenjoyable equivalant (Depression, pain, fatigue etc.) And held without TMS for let's say I dunno, 5-10 years?
Why this post? Reality. What are the REAL odds of complete abatement? What are your chances?
It is surely a chronic condition, like cancer. Cancer treatment has a low cure rate, and they only count cure as 5 years, I believe, cancer free, but often, it is coming back.
If I am cured it is 100% if you arent it is 0%. But what is your own gut feeling as to the % of people that are "cured" My sense is that it is worse then most drug trials with placebo. I see that relapse is high, that equivalents is high, that struggling is high, I'm gonna vote
15%
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| 15 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Sylvia |
Posted - 01/13/2013 : 16:10:48
Thank you Doc's. It looks like the odds are very very good to anyone who wants to apply themselves, and apply themselves undaunted.
And Dr Alexander you said this...TMS forums are not a random sample of the general population, nor even of the TMS population- if this is where you are getting your impression (of no cures) from, then it could be misleading,
an important insight and distinction! |
| Ace1 |
Posted - 01/13/2013 : 05:39:08
Thanks james |
| Dr James Alexander |
Posted - 01/12/2013 : 21:58:16
Ace1. The impression i have developed from the many clients i've worked with over the years is that the success rate would have to be in the region of 80%. Quite a few years ago, i did start collecting data to gauge this very question, but unfortunately i stopped when i decided there wasnt much i was going to do with it (big mistake). As such, my sample was only of 17 people who presented to me in chronic pain of one form or another. I administered a self report measure of pain and disability to them (the OMPQ) both on our first meeting, and then again at the completion of my intervention. 16 of the 17 had reductions in their pain (and 1 person had an increase). The average size of the reductions in pain was 30 points (from a scale that goes up to 100). As with all averages, there were some that were low sized reductions in pain, and some that were very large reductions. Someone starting with an OMPQ score of say 70/100 is in a lot of pain/disability. To reduce down to 40/100 is a great improvement. I wish i had have kept on doing this research, but alas, i didnt. Also note, that this was short term research- the interventions lasted from a few weeks to a few months only. It is possible that some of them may have returned to higher pain levels, and some of them may have continued reducing in their pain levels. People do tend to come back to me if they need more help though (and these people didnt, so i suspect that they remained better). Also, keep in mind that I am seeing a skewed sample, ie. those who are willing to see a psychologist because they are in pain. This does suggest a level of openness to a psychological approach right from the start.
To follow Ace1's question, my recovery was within around 3 months. The difficulty i had was trying to work out if Sarno's writings related to me, as he was discussing primarily back, neck and shoulder pain. At the time, i was thinking that my groin pain was muscular, however the literature made no mention of groin muscles being vulnerable to ischemia (as opposed to the postural muscles)- so, i was not certain. And i think this is why it took me 3 months to resolve. In the end, 'the penny dropped' for me when i revisited the accident site (where i was nearly killed and traumatised as an 18 year old). I went back there 20 years later, on what turned out to be within a day or two of the anniversary of the accident (not deliberate). My groin pain became the worst that i had ever experienced in the days running up to this- i could barely walk. Then, when at the accident site, it dawned on me that regardless of what/wasnt in the literature, my pain was clearly related to my trauma. Over the next few days, the pain went away and has never returned. I later realised that the pain was resulting from ischemia of the lumbar nerve which runs through the groin (and not from ischemia of the muscle); and that this was in Sarno's books all along- i just wasnt tuned into it. I recount all this in Session 1 of the workshop which i have just put on my webpage which people can download as an MP3, or listen to directly from the 'Workshops & Training' page (www.drjamesalexander-psychologist.com
James |
| shawnsmith |
Posted - 01/12/2013 : 20:18:33
Well Ace1, for the first time with your last post I have discovered you are a physician. My condolences:) |
| Ace1 |
Posted - 01/12/2013 : 17:59:06
Sylvia in regards to your question, I do think you have to change in order to really get better. I do think some folks will do their best to ignore their pain and will be successful at stopping their symptoms but the psychological need is still there. In others, the symptoms will go no where or shift if they try to ignore their symptoms. I have a woman with diabetes and anemia, she had back pain and by just reading dr Sarno's book she got better from that but still has her other illnesses. Someone may say, but those other two illnesses are not related, but in my experience they are. It's as if the "extra" tension goes back into these other things. So real cure through what I have listed is hard. I am not trying to discourage anyone, but I must mention the reality behind it and that you have to treat this as a project for it to work. I tried to lay it out the best I could in my keys to healing, but even with that its still hard. It takes practice and becoming a master of what I am saying and breaking bad habits of a life time. I think if someone followed those keys to recovery and didn't give up practicing even up to years, I think close to everyone would get better to the point were they were close to normal. Will the members on this forum take this stance and prove me right? I will ask what percent of people whom have had themselves caught up in this syndrome (in a severe state) will be patient and dedicated enough to do this? Very few in my experience. I do think people who are also caught early in the syndrome have a much faster time to recovery than someone who has been stuck in the for years. I have had much success helping the nurses I work with than my patients. They are more receptive and they tend to listen to my advice more. I think for them it's a much higher rate of recovery, like 80% or so within a few months, but they in general are not that severe. So like I said before it really depends on the factors I listed, so it's for sure more than 15% for all comers, but low for very severe cases but very curable with time.
James what would you say our cure rate is? Also would you be willing to post a brief success story on this forum, and your time frame for curing yourself. I know your story is in your book, but I'm sure there will be a few whom never read your book who could benefit from it.
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| tennis tom |
Posted - 01/12/2013 : 17:40:39
You know Sylvia, you came here asking for help, a lot of people including myself gave you good TMS advice. Now you are undermining your own TMS recovery questioning Dr. Sarno's credibility. Maybe this is no longer the right place for you. You sound very unhappy with everything and everybody, no one here can fix that for you, only you--that's what TMS is about, taking charge of your own mindbody health and not leaving it up to others to do it for you. |
| pspa123 |
Posted - 01/12/2013 : 17:03:12
Complete abatement is not necessarily the only meaningful yardstick of success. I would be thrilled beyond my power of expression if someday I can achieve even a reduction in my neck pain level.
BTW when I thought I had CFS I bought Gupta's program and sent it back for a refund -- I was not impressed at all with it. |
| tennis tom |
Posted - 01/12/2013 : 17:01:52
quote:
Originally posted by Sylvia
..Very few completely verifiably get well to work and live (those who HAVE been posting for years, not success stories from seldom posters, which might be real, or might be propoganda).
...Just like posters here believing and working the program for years, not really better.
Well I've been posting here for years and I don't do it to get better. I do it because the topic fascintates me, is very important for mankind and it's good typing practice. I post at several other boards about cars and tennis. I don't post there because there's something wrong with my car or wrong with my tennis game. I participate because I'm interested in those topics, the same here.
TMS "knowledge penicillin" helps me on a daily basis as a PREVENTATIVE measure. It's like getting an inouculation--you don't get polio vaccines because you have polio.
TMS is applied functional psychology. It is psychosomatic mindbody medicine. Eighty percent of people in doctor's waiting rooms are there for psychosomatic reasons, not structural or traumatic, you just have to look around and listen--there's the science--I'm a one man study.
Dr. Sarno has done wonders to cure me of TMS personality traits that are detrimental like GOODISM for example. In the old days, I would have gone to a TMS book like SteveO's and copied the relevant reply to your statistical question, I know exactly where it is. But, no longer being a goodist, I'll do it when I feel like it or maybe I won't do it at all--not my problem--I don't care if you believe me or not--TMS is a protective device--why should I deprive folks of the protection they must cling to in a rough patch in their lives--it would be cruel and un-humanitarian to rob them of it--if I believed in that sort of stuff.
==================================================
DR. SARNO'S 12 DAILY REMINDERS:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0dKBFwGR0g
TAKE THE HOLMES-RAHE STRESS TEST
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holmes_and_Rahe_stress_scale
Some of my favorite excerpts from _THE DIVIDED MIND_ :
http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2605
==================================================
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." Jiddu Krishnamurti
"Pain is inevitable; suffering is optional." Author Unknown
"Happy People Are Happy Putters." Frank Nobilo, Golf Analyst
"Be careful about reading health books. You may die of a misprint." Mark Twain and Balto
"The hot-dog is the noblest of dogs; it feeds the hand that bites it." Dr. Laurence Johnston Peter
======================================================
"If it ends with "itis" or "algia" or "syndrome" and doctors can't figure out what causes it, then it might be TMS." Dave the Mod
=================================================
TMS PRACTITIONERS:
John Sarno, MD
400 E 34th St, New York, NY 10016
(212) 263-6035
Here's the TMS practitioners list from the TMS Help Forum:
http://www.tmshelp.com/links.htm
Here's a list of TMS practitioners from the TMS Wiki:
http://tmswiki.org/ppd/Find_a_TMS_Doctor_or_Therapist
Here's a map of TMS practitioners from the old Tarpit Yoga site, (click on the map by state for listings).:
http://www.tarpityoga.com/2007_08_01_archive.html |
| shawnsmith |
Posted - 01/12/2013 : 15:58:19
quote:
Originally posted by Dr James Alexander
When it comes to more severe problems, it appears that professional assistance is often required. In terms of TMS, this could mean when the pain is being fueled by trauma, PTSD, massive dilemmas, unsolvable problems, etc. So, like with most other problems, the more extreme the base line level of problem is, the more professional help may be needed.
I begin to see a therapist on this coming Tuesday but I am not sure yet if she will buy into the concept of TMS. I am not even sure how to explain my situation to her. As for personal trauma, PTSD, massive dilemmas, unsolvable problems, etc. in my particular case, I have yet to un-surface any, but I am still looking and try not to be in denial. |
| alix |
Posted - 01/12/2013 : 15:28:15
Interesting post Sylvia. By that measurement I am not cured and I don't aim at such a state.
I healed from pelvic pain but my old gremlins, that had completely vanished for 10 years, are back. Allergies and short bouts of back pain. The difference is that it is manageable and not life transforming (in a very bad way) like my pelvic pain was. |
| Dr James Alexander |
Posted - 01/12/2013 : 14:37:41
Sylvia. As has been stated by others, the answer to your question surely lies in the definitions and ratings of both the starting points (baseline levels of pain) and the end point (what is meant by 'better'). I would also be very interested to see 10 year results of Sarno's sample, 88% of whom got better (ie. eliminated or radically reduced subjective reports of pain; off pain drugs, and resumption of pre-pain activities). My guess is that the vast majority of them would still be fine 10 years later- but this is only a guess, and only research can answer it. And you have raised the valid point that this sample was not one which is representative of the general pain population, ie. it was taken from people who were open to the TMS model (Sarno suggests the level of openness to this approach in the general population is probably around 25%- probably right). So, you could conclude that of the minority of people who are open to this approach, most of them 'get better' in the relative short term (i think his sample was of former patients of around 1-2 years?)- but it hasnt (to my knowledge been followed up to 10 years).
Why conclude that most of these people would still be better 10 years later? I think once a very significant relief is created in a pained/troubled person, the natural healing/self correcting tendencies are activated (or at least, no longer held back and hampered by the problem). Positive spirals happen just as often as do negative spirals, and relief often leads on to new and additional improvements in a whole range of ways, many of which may seem unrelated. As a shrink, i view the TMS model as a form of psycho-education, and even psychotherapy in that it is using a psychological notion to heal physical/emotional pain (no distinction between these in reality). Over 40 years of research of psychotherapy outcomes reveals a consistent finding- around 80% of people who receive psychotherapy are emotionally better off as a result when compared to people with the same problems who do not receive psychotherapy (for more info on this, look up Scott Miller- psychologist). TMS is both treated by professionals and a self help modality. Research evidence demonstrates that for problems which are not of the most severe kind, self-help (including books, journaling, etc) are as effective as is psychotherapy, ie. 80% of self-help treated people are better off than those with the same problems not treated.
When it comes to more severe problems, it appears that professional assistance is often required. In terms of TMS, this could mean when the pain is being fueled by trauma, PTSD, massive dilemmas, unsolvable problems, etc. So, like with most other problems, the more extreme the base line level of problem is, the more professional help may be needed. And the reality is that professional help is often/usually not available in regards to TMS bec lack of TMS health practitioners, and financial barriers. This means that there may be many people in the TMS community who are trying to overcome their pain without professional help, where in an ideal world, they would have that help (thus the importance of forums like this one). And then there are multiple stories (my own included) of people who have pretty severe issues (eg. trauma) who managed to overcome their pain using self-help only (eg. books). These cases are entirely real, but your queries is 'how many of them become better, or stay better?'. As stated, i dont think the research has been done yet- research is incredibly expensive to do. However, apples still fell to the ground before one landed on Isaac Newtons head and allowed him to come up with the theory of gravity. That is, the real world operates pretty independently of researcher's activities- and there is plenty of anecdotal evidence that TMS cures exist in the real world.
Why then so many reports of people still suffering on forums like this one? Three reasons i suspect:- i) TMS forums are not a random sample of the general population, nor even of the TMS population- if this is where you are getting your impression (of no cures) from, then it could be misleading, ii) people who get better probably have a tendency to leave the issue behind, and to not remain involved in TMS forums (altho, some do)- again, you are seeing a 'skewed sample' in TMS forums (perhaps focus on the success stories), and iii) overcoming a TMS pain does not result in one becoming a 'super-human'. As Sarno has stated, and i agree, TMS seems to be the human condition. He reports to still experience headaches. Even though i overcame 18 years of chronic groin pain (and never had chronic pain from fracturing 3 vertebrae in my neck + 2 disc bulges), i still experienced a couple of days of abnormal back pain 2 weeks ago- the day after i scattered my father's ashes. Does this mean a 'treatment failure' in researchers terms? It may do (depending on definitions used by the researcher), however I dont see any reason to view it in that way. To me, it reflects 'the human condition'- we are vulnerable to emotional pain resulting in physical pain simply because of how nature evolved us as a species/how God made us (your choice).
I suspect that of the 88% of Sarno's patients who were found to be 'better' as a result of his psycho-educational intervention, many/most of them would continue to experience occasional bouts of pain like i did recently. Personally, i still consider myself cured (despite very rare pain experiences). Were one of my children to die, i suspect that TMS pain may become a more chronic feature of my life, a would the emotional pain. Just because we can internalise and productively work with these ideas does not mean that we are exempt from human condition, or reactions. There is no 'cure' for the human condition, as it really isn't an illness- its just a reality, like most of us having 2 arms and 2 legs. And the reality seems to be a self protective tendency from emotional pain which our mind/brain is able to utilise with a range of defense mechanisms, including chronic pain. To me, it is possible that some very unique people (like Echart Tolle) may be able to transcend the human condition and not suffer in many of the normal ways.
I would also like to see the long term research being done, but in the meantime, we need to focus on the style of evidence which is currently available. And this is primarily in the form of many, many anecdotal reports; Sarno's own outcome studies; and other sources of research based evidence (eg. that reported by Miller) which provides indirect support. Unfortunately, thats all we have to work with at the moment. Ideally, we would have long term research results, but as stated, this is very expensive to do- so if you know a rich philanthropist who is will to fund it, let me know- i'd be happy to do it.
James |
| Sylvia |
Posted - 01/12/2013 : 09:13:04
Ace1 According to dr Sarno, he said as long as everyone sits with it and continues to believe, he said everyone gets better.
I believe this, as he never said cured. True, maybe 10% of people who he selected improved. But he hasn't had the kind of scrutiny of patient records and follow up and any sort of scientific data that proves this out. Do you believe of his 10% he got a 100% cure rate? Or do you believe it is far lower.
Shawn Shawn Shawn. It is good to keep a positive mental attitude and belief in treatment. Cancer patients do it with only 20% odds of cure. But lets DEAL with the numbers. So many people who "healed" are back with "this or that dammit" over time, maybe several years of relief but man something else comes up to crimp their life.
tennis, yes I am talking about his chosen 10%, what is the cure rate of his patients during the 10 years later?
Without scientific scrutiny how can one chose the better treatment?
Abraham Low is not Claire Weekes is not Dr. Sarno is not SteveO is not Gupta
CFS has Gupta amygdala retraining. No unconscious modality there. Theory is a stuck habitual ON switch of the thalmous/amygdala that keeps the fear/flight/freeze response activated therefore symptoms. For sure with CFS there is a basketful of dysfuction, immune, hormonal, muscular (pain), mental/emotional all of it is wonked. Now his course has been out for years, and his exclusive forum of retrainers looks the same as here. Very few completely verifiably get well to work and live (those who HAVE been posting for years, not success stories from seldom posters, which might be real, or might be propoganda). Just like posters here believing and working the program for years, not really better.
I think 15% is likely it. And really amusing if you think that NO INTERVENTION AT ALL would get 15% also.
Being a Dr Ace, you think that above sentence is a reasonable statement?
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| tennis tom |
Posted - 01/12/2013 : 08:09:22
15% sounds about right, probably optimistic. Dr. Sarno carefully selected his patients based on whether he thought they were capable of accepting his theory that TMS pain was caused by emotions and not structural causes. This was not to waste people's time or money with those who NEEDED their TMS pain as a psychological defense mechanism. Most folks won't act for their emotional needs, fearing being ostracized or looked on as crazy if they expressed their rage and anger. The general society doesn't like people who rant, look what happened to Jesus. TMS pain distracts most of us from acting on our rage, living a dynamic life, doing what we would like to be doing. If we acted on our emotional impulses, we may be locked up for strangling a mate, or run off with the secretary or the milkman--fight or flight--but instead we're stuck--thank you pain. |
| shawnsmith |
Posted - 01/12/2013 : 07:13:17
Sylvia,
I think you have written these words in a moment of despair. The question you ask is not really answerable with verifiable data but you went ahead and answered it anyway by stating you felt only a low percentage of people totally recover. You did this because, in your current discouragement, that is what you want to believe. I feel this is the TMS speaking and not you. Since you have not recovered, it is logical in your mind that few others recover also. But this conclusion of yours is not based on sound logic (or data), but an unverifiable belief you have embraced. I feel that your thinking needs to be investigated to see what the real issues are taking place deep within yourself. You seem to be filled with a lot of doubt and no small dose of cynicism.
I know it can be discouraging when after years of effort there seems to be little relief, but don't allow despair to overtake you as it only leads to more suffering.
Best regards!
Shawn |
| Ace1 |
Posted - 01/12/2013 : 06:42:36
Lovely question and its good you brought this up. I think there is a spectrum of how healthy you are, so there are always degrees. So I don't really see it as cure or no cure. It's like from 1% ( deathly ill) to 100% (perfect). Like in anything in life you will find the same spectrum. So, now your question has multiple answers bc the first question would be, at what point is the person starting from, obviously on average if someone is starting at only 10% health, they will have a harder time, more prolonged time to recover than let's say someone at 60%. People with cancer or close to complete disability are at the bottom of the spectrum. The other thing is how intelligently is someone able to apply the cure to themselves, how diligent and how patient they are. There are too many factors. One thing that is true however, a person has no really good other options than to work on themselves from a TMS model. I think because it is a spectrum, one can always get to a better state. Cure in my mind is that they have minimal symptoms were they can do anything and they don't feel that they need to go and seek relief, maybe that's like at the 90% level. According to dr Sarno, he said as long as everyone sits with it and continues to believe, he said everyone gets better. Your right however, I think a lot of people who think they are cured are not really because of a shift in symptoms that they don't think is TMS htn etc. |
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