| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| MikeC |
Posted - 03/02/2005 : 14:53:04
Hello,
While I have responded to some of the posts that have come along the way, this is my first original post so I hope you will bear with me.
First, I would like to say that I think this has been a wonderful place for me to read other people's issues. The best thing to know is that I am not alone with a pain problem. By far, the perception of being isolated can bring on fear, anger, depression, and helplessness very quickly.
I have had back/leg issues on and off for over twenty years. Some times in my life have been fine and others have been miserable. Right now, we are in miserable stage. I have done the gamut of chiropractors and orthopedists that would last anyone a lifetime.
About eighteen months ago, I heard about Dr. Sarno and his work. I read the books (HBP and TMBPrescription). I also got the video of his lecture. After making some progress over the months, I felt that I stalled out. The stall turned into the misery stage that I am in now. I decided to make an appointment with one of the TMS docs on the directory. His name is Dr. Eugenio Martinez (I live in Massachusetts). After spending some time looking at MRIs and an examination, he told me while there were some structual issues (stenosis), he thought that the primary focus of the pain was stress/tension. I tested positive on all the neck, back and buttock points that Dr. Sarno mentions in his book regarding the exapmination. He told me that I should read two books; TMBP and Back Sense by R. Seigel. He felt that both of these authors were way ahead of the curve regarding pain issues. He also sent me to an aggressive physical therapy course to break my fear of lifting, bending, and every other taboo item that has been created regarding back pain. I've completed the course on that and while I don't feel much better, he told me that he did not expect much in the way of pain improvement at this point. We are in the early stages of this monster and there was a long ladder to climb in order to get out. I will see him again in a couple of weeks where we will plan the next steps of recovery.
The best thing about him (and from what I gather about people who have seen Sarno) is that they truly care about their patients. At my first appointment, I was as depressed as I can ever remember. He could tell I was upset and told me 1) that he wanted me to consider him his "coach" and we would work together to solve this problem. He gave me his voice mail and e-mail address and told me to contact him at anytime if I was having issues. 2) As long as I really wanted to get better, he would help me with the process. He explained to me that some people get into his office and when he starts talking Sarno philosophy, aggresive physical treatment, stress/tension, he can tell which ones don't want any part of it and which ones are serious. He could tell I was serious.
I think the only place where he and Sarno part company is that repressed emotions are the issue for every pain problem. He thinks that while stress and tension are the major factors of pain, they don't all come from repressed emotions. Although, now that I think about it, I don't think Sarno believes that either. He says that everyday issues can cause the problem as well so maybe they aren't as far apart as I thought.
Anyway, sorry for the length of this opening e-mail. I hope to contribute to helping anyone with an issue. The one thing that I have learned through all of this is that we are not alone. There are many people out there with chronic pain problems who use medications alone to deal with it which is the wrong way to go. As my doctor mentioned to me, one of his friends asked whether the withdrawl of Vioxx left him with no alternative medications to give his patients, his response was "no" because he never gave any of his patients VIoxx or Celebrex because he felt that it didn't address the problem.
Sincerely,
Mike C |
| 20 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Colleen |
Posted - 03/11/2005 : 18:45:54
MikeC,
Thanks for the phone number. I did get an appt....and it is at NEBH.....I took it because it was the only appt. left in March and it is the last week of March at that. Believe me, I do know what you mean about Hospitals.....between my Mom's cancer and my own surgery, recovery, etc....I am not a big fan of Hospitals either. My husband will drive me in although I cannot figure out if he truly buys the TMS (he is a Medical Engineer) or he just wants me to get better so much.
I will read the book as you said. Thanks!
Colleen |
| MikeC |
Posted - 03/09/2005 : 09:32:17
Colleen,
Try 617-738-8642. That is his office at ProSports Orthopedics in Brookline which is just west of Boston. He works mainly out of New England Baptist Hospital but he also has offices in Brookline and Dedham. Just a suggestion and I'm not sure why I say this but don't see him at NEBH. I always find hospitals the most depressing places.
Good luck and let me know if I can help out any other way. May I make another suggestion? You may want to make sure you have read MindBody Prescription by Sarno and Back Sense by Siegel. I know your issue is not your back but read it anyway. There is a lot of good information on the psychology of pain.
Best wishes,
Mike C |
| Colleen |
Posted - 03/09/2005 : 09:25:15
Mike,
I was given the wrong phone number (twice) for Dr. Martinez. Could you send me the correct number. Thanks.
Colleen |
| diverlarry |
Posted - 03/09/2005 : 05:59:11
I was doomed to fail when i did the agressive PT becasue i did not truly believe in TMS. My mindset was not right. I was not ready. I think i was looking for that magic bullet that would fix everything. I was angry when it did not work and felt even more hopeless. For other people with the right mindset it could be helpful to them to get over the fear.
I have always lifed weights and excerised and the exercisies were nothing new to me. Now i do some of these same exercises and have no problems at all. What the aggressive PT did for me was to prove to me that special exercises,stretches,etc would NOT help me. It pushed me more in the right direction of programming,anxiety,repressed rage.
Sort of like a kick in the ass. We all need that now and then even if we don't like it.
I will email u MikeC. |
| Kajsa |
Posted - 03/09/2005 : 01:05:02
By the way Menvert...
How are you doing? Are you still getting better?
Kajsa |
| tennis tom |
Posted - 03/09/2005 : 00:36:03
Good post Menvert, logical and well thought out. |
| menvert |
Posted - 03/08/2005 : 16:31:08
this issue is a contentious one,
The use of the word Physical Therapy PT is sometimes misused i think.
my concept of PT is the specific excises/massage/treatment specifically designed to FIX muscle/joints/bones & pain.
Exercise for the sake of general(not pain focused) Fitness is good
Exercise for pushing through Fears is good.
What MikeC is explaining sounds like part PT & part Exercise for pushing through Fears....
OK my experience with this stuff.....
I did yoga & swimming & stretches etc. BUT I stopped & my TMS improvement is no longer STALLED. it WAS indeed holding me back
but i _may_ not have started making the progress i made after ceasing PT related activities IF i hadn't done Yoga & swimming simply to get my body tone back, so I CAN do activities. I was servely weakend by ceasing to use my muscles..
(NOTE: no Physio, massage,triggerpoint or other Focussed on the specific area PT worked at all , bar short placebos, Yoga & swimming was also general exercise so it helped more)
so although in the long run ANY PT IS BAD i think it may be a usefull (for a few cases) 1st step for people who are severely weakened. but most of us wont get any benefit from PT if we are still bogged down in pain... etc.
mine helped because i did SARNO -> then PT for a bit -> Then back to SARNO & NO PT.
But by all means, if you can - AVOID & STOP any PT
also I should include Therapy in general not congruent with sarno. I have now stopped taking vitamins & anti-inflammatory fish oil and everything.
Even the little things can help reinforce the physical. The brain only needs the tiniest foothold in order to keep the facade alive.
[And now for my highly controversial content :)]
I would even go as far to say that reading non-sarno supported books can also be counterproductive.... for many people(it appears to me) it simply means you are not prepared to put in the Sarno work or do not really believe and are looking for an alternative(EASIER) way out, rather than just knuckling down and doing it.
It is a lot easier to go from book to book (much like going from Dr to Dr therapy to therapy) as a form of distraction to avoid really getting down to the Juice of the matter.
Of course, once you know you have a strong handle on TMS , it may then be beneficial to branch out... the trouble being if you start reading an author, which has a thoery non-compatible with sarno it can introduce doubt about TMS & put you in reverse recovery wise.
These are my thoughts, feel free to pick them to pieces. |
| Stryder |
Posted - 03/08/2005 : 14:59:55
Hi everyone,
I also had counter productive results from aggressive physical therapy. I got much worse (and more angry) after 4 weeks of PT, and was losing ground. This was during my pre-Sarno days, and I knew nothing of the TMS diagnosis. Coincidently, when I stopped PT in my case I started to get better. PT can also act as a placebo in some cases (I'm "doing something" to get better, so you "get better").
I can see in some cases that if you are very scared of physical activity, that PT might help you get over that part of your denial. On the other hand, if your back muscles are tight due to TMS tensions, then this is actually the wrong time to try to streach them back out again. You really must accept the TMS diagnosis and address the root cause of your TMS pain, be it repressed emotions, rage or other psychological issues.
Hope this helps, -Stryder |
| MikeC |
Posted - 03/08/2005 : 13:42:40
Hi Everyone,
Before I respond, I just wanted to know if DiverLarry is still in Marlboro. If so, shoot me over a private e-mail offline so we can talk all Marlboro all the time.
Back to the main topic. Everything that Larry said is accurate but I think you can take it with your own interpretation. He is on the money about the program being lifting weights and stretching. I was also told about how much of everything you should do regarding 150% of weight limits, etc. etc. I didn't buy much of that. After my setback, I didn't want to do anything because I was scared and angry. I used this program to remind me that my back was strong. Anyone can do this program at their gym or in their basement if they wished. I will continue to do this at my gym along with a bunch of other weight machines and aerobic activities in order to show my back who is boss. Some people may call this physical therapy. I agree with Larry that it depends on your mindset.
I have an appointment with Dr. Martinez on Monday and I want to advance some of this theory with him. I have had two appointments with him so far and its amazing how your memory escapes you (especially when you feel you are at rock bottom) but here is what I beleive his theories are:
1) Sarno is a lot closer to right than most doctors although he is not a 100% Sarnoist.
2) The program that he sent me to is to ensure that you eliminate fear from your mindset AND have adequate strength and flexibility.
3) He is closer to the Dr. Seigel/BACK SENSE book. In fact, he is one of the contributors to the book.
I wanted to write more but I need to get going. In summary, I don't think it is the activity that you are doing but the mindset that you are doing it with. I believe in one of Sarno's books or audiotapes regarding typical back exercises, he says that he does these exercises and "it's a very good thing" but the idea that it will cure you of back pain is wrong.
I hope that answers some of the questions. If not, let me know and I will give it another shot.
Thanks,
Mike C |
| Baseball65 |
Posted - 03/08/2005 : 05:57:38
To Dave,Mala and everybody..
Correct me if I'm wrong,but I thought Sarno says he still occasionally sends people to PT if they have become "physicophobes"....I never used any after the book,because excepting for an atrophied calf on my left leg,I had 'digested' the theory completely(with the occasional doubt demon)....
My calf eventually normalized,but there was NO pain associated with it's diminution....I just looked funny in shorts(adding to my anxiety{LOL!})
...did Sarno change his stand on this in MBP??
peace
Baseball65 |
| mala |
Posted - 03/07/2005 : 22:38:54
Actually, Sarno in either HBP or MBP, mentions a case where he did use physio to help a patient recover. The patient was so scared of doing anything physical that it was the only way and apparently it worked so not everything is a complete No No.
Mala
Good Luck & Good Health
Mala |
| Colleen |
Posted - 03/07/2005 : 19:23:06
There are quite a few of us from MA! I find that kind of interesting.
Colleen |
| diverlarry |
Posted - 03/07/2005 : 12:07:52
The PT was called Back Boot Camp. New England Baptist was the hospital. The doctor i seen was Cristin Jouve who is also on staff same as Eugenio Martinez. The PT was at healthpoint in Waltham,Ma where the Boston Celtics train. It was ciruit training using various machines,Back Ext,Leg machine,Rotary Torso,Lat PullDown,dumbbell dead lifts, lifting milk boxes with wights to different levels on a platform.
But this could have been different than what MikeC did. I thought this was the same program since its the same hospital. But i could be incorrect.There are different programs and programs do change.
This was my experience and may not be the same as MikeC.
I am also interested into hearing more about it MikeC.
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| FarmerEd |
Posted - 03/07/2005 : 09:36:59
Your probably right Dave. If the aggressive therapy program is along the lines that Diverlarry descirbed then I also think it would be counterproductive. That is why I asked for more details about the program. Perhaps it's more like a trainer in a gym with someone pushing you to do activity of all kinds to show there is nothing wrong with you, constantly urging you to get up and go. If it's PT that is aimed at correcting some percieved strucural or other problem then I believe it is counter productive as I have always said. Perhaps MikeC can fill us in a little more on what's involved. He said it was a TMS doctor he was going to so I'm interested to hear more about it. |
| Dave |
Posted - 03/07/2005 : 07:11:32
quote:
Originally posted by FarmerEd
Hello MikeC,
You wrote: "He also sent me to an aggressive physical therapy course to break my fear of lifting, bending, and every other taboo item that has been created regarding back pain."
This sounds like an excellent type physical program, one that tries to deprogram a persons fear of physical activity. Could you give a little more detail on how they go about this?
If such therapy was valuable in TMS theory, Dr. Sarno would surely use it.
As diverlarry points out, physical therapy, in any form, is contradictory to TMS treatment. Dr. Sarno originally perscribed physical therapy. Even though the PTs he used were colleagues of his and well versed in the TMS theory, it didn't work.
If you focus at all on the treating the body, even under the guise of "building strength" or "deprogramming fear" it is counterproductive. It leaves the door open for the unconscious mind to exploit your belief that there is a structural cause of the pain. |
| diverlarry |
Posted - 03/07/2005 : 05:59:43
I am also from MA and from Marlboro and went to see a doctor at New England Baptist and went to the aggressive PT and have had back pain for 10-15 years.
The aggressive PT did not work for me. The PT was actually a setback for me. The problem i had with the aggressive PT was the PT recommended stretching as part of the program. The program was also based on the theory of weak muscles causing back pain along with the fear. The routines were based on previous people going through the program. This information was used to plan the program with specific weight amounts. The idea was once you achieved a certain percentage of the weight, based on your total weight your back would be strong enough. For example: being able to do a back extension with 150% of your total weight meant your back was ok. When they told me that.....it made no sense at all. They also used and recommended ice if you were sore. They also said you need to keep doing it when you left or you would get sore again !! Yes, it was also used to get over your fear. If you have any doubts ask the Doctor and PT's how the program was started and the theory behind it.
The program did not work for me becasue of these reasons. It was based on the physcial vs TMS. The real "cure" is repressed emotions and breaking the conditioning and starting physcial activities again. There is not a "Normal Time" for recovering from TMS. This subject has been discussed before. The book tends to use the people with the shortest recovery times vs the ones with longer recovery times.
If you have suffered for 5,10,15,20 years.....it makes sense that it might take longer than 4-8 weeks to break the conditioning and to re-program your sub-conscious rather than someone with pain for a year. Forget the time table and keep working. All time tables do is discourage you.
Its been many months for me, i don't coun't anymore. The symptons occur infrequently ,are relatively minor, don't stay around and don't stop me from doing things anymore. I suffered for many many years. It takes time and work. |
| FarmerEd |
Posted - 03/05/2005 : 17:06:51
Hello MikeC,
You wrote: "He also sent me to an aggressive physical therapy course to break my fear of lifting, bending, and every other taboo item that has been created regarding back pain."
This sounds like an excellent type physical program, one that tries to deprogram a persons fear of physical activity. Could you give a little more detail on how they go about this? |
| Fredarm57 |
Posted - 03/05/2005 : 14:54:17
I think Allan has a good point (actually several). In my case too, the pain seems to be a sign that there are issues that I need to deal with. Also, I originally (early 1990's) had to go through just about every treatment imaginable before I could accept the TMS diagnosis. Even now, when I get pain, it's easy for the old fears to come back. I guess we're just wired to equate pain with harm. I have found mindfulness techniques very helpful in ovecoming the fear.
Fred |
| Allan |
Posted - 03/05/2005 : 09:22:30
Hello Mike.
You are doing a great service to the members of the forum with your sharing of your experiences.
I went to Dr. Jay Rosenfeld in Sandwich, MA and I highly recommend him. Where did all these Massachusetts people come from?
I have had a problem with the theory of repressed emotions causing TMS pain, that is, the pain being a cover for the repressed emotions applying to all cases. I would suggest that it may be the opposite, that the TMS pain is alerting us that there is anger or anxiety that needs to be recognized and dealt with in some cases.
Let me say that people are all different and that one size does not fit all. I am sure that in some cases (most cases?) the repressed emotions concept is very valid.
I would also suggest that the TMS pain can be very disproportionate to the underlying anger or anxiety. In my recent bout with TMS pain, the cause turned out to be what I would call "a slight apprehension" as opposed to repressed anger. Even though it was easy to defuse, the pain (sciatica) lasted for over four weeks.
It bothers me that so many people appear to have bought Dr. Sarno's diagnosis but are taking months (if ever) to recover. Dr. Sarno says in his first book that the normal time is four to eight weeks. There appears to be a missing link here in the process.
I think that we have to recognize that Dr. Sarno is a pioneer with an orginal thought - his diagnosis. There is no question that he has helped thousands including me. May I suggest that his theories will go through a process of evolution as we learn more about this subject.
I thought that Dave's recent posting covered it all very well. Maybe, as Dr. Sarno says, some people have to be desparate in order to obtain the mindset to accept the diagnosis.
Allan.
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| Colleen |
Posted - 03/05/2005 : 07:41:53
I meant to mention.....and this may or may not go over well with everyone.....I started doing "shiatsu" about 6 weeks ago. It is an Eastern healing method much like accupressure, but incorporates alot of mind/body work as does most Eastern philosophy versus Western. It took me awhile to open myself up to it. I see a wonderfully compassionate woman who has trained for years in shiatsu, both here and in her native country. I go for one session every other week. I also attend her yoga/meditation class, when I can get there.
Colleen |
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