| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| ralphyde |
Posted - 02/23/2005 : 13:29:32
My wife and I had a wonderful loving marriage for seven years before we learned about TMS. We were both active hang glider pilots, an activity she loved. But she had given this up along with bike riding after almost two years of severe lower back pain. She is 44. I am 67 and retired.
We had been all over California seeking a cure. The chief Orthopedic Surgeon at SpineCare Institute in SF had told her, "We don't know what is causing your pain," but they gave her cortisone shots which didn't help, and we continued our search through acupuncture, massage, Egoscue exercises, chiropractors, craniosacral therapy, hypnosis, spiritual therapy, etc.
Up until this time we had no problems in our marriage. We both had felt that our years together had been the happiest of our lives. She wrote a card to me saying:
Dear Ralph,
Your love and support has kept me happy
and hopeful for this painful year I've been
experiencing.
I have grown to love you
even more than I ever thought capable of
loving another. You are so positive and
careing and helpful, and I love being with
you each and every moment.
Love always, Julie
Finally, after two and a half years of severe back pain, I ordered two books for her, and they both happened to be about TMS, one by Monte Hueftle, Get Rid of the Pain In Your Butt Now! and the other by Fred Amir, Rapid Recovery from Back and Neck Pain. We had never heard of Dr. Sarno until both of these authors praised him for healing them after years of disability and searching for a cure. Julie skimmed the first one, but rejected it. I then read it and found it most compelling and based on solid psychology (I have an MA in psychology). I could see her on every page and she fit the profile for people who get TMS very well. So I urged her to give the books another chance.
But she blew up at me most irrationally, said they were saying "It's all in my head." I tried to explain that the pain was real, caused by the cutting off the blood flow through the autonomic nervous system, but she wouldn't even listen, put her fingers in her ears, batted the book out of my hands, and other expressions of juvenile anger. We couldn't even talk about it, and she screamed at me that she wanted me to leave.
Unfortunately, I made a bad bargain with her. I agreed to leave (back to my retirement home) if she would promise to read the books with an open mind. She promised, and soon took a trip to visit her Mom and her 4th husband, where she tried to read the books, but turned her Mom against me too.
Julie had had a rough childhood. Her parents had divorced when she was about 9, followed by two abusive stepfathers, and her mother was an alcoholic. So she had plenty of repressed unresolved anger.
When she got home, she kept me away, saying she needed more time alone, and though she said she tried, she could never accept the TMS diagnosis, though it was obvious to me, and she continued with her physical therapies which gave her temporary relief and insisted she was getting better.
Her mother encouraged Julie to divorce me, as she would rather blame me in the present for Julie's pain than accept responsibility for Julie's childhood abuse. Julie gradually became more distant from me. She said her back hurt when we talked on the phone, so she eventually asked me to stop calling her. All this time I was fully supporting her from my retirement income, wrote her loving letters of encouragement, bought her the Sarno book on CDs, and the VHS tapes of his lectures, which she reluctantly watched after a few weeks, and was not persuaded. I also read everything I could find on TMS including both of Dr. Sarno's books, Back Sense, and others.
In October, Julie agreed to go back with me to a spiritual healing center in Montana where she had gone before. They came down strongly on my side, urged us to reconcile, and told Julie that she was being very unfair, that her back is physically healed, and "the rest is emotional," and urged us to take a vacation together. They also had us say some vows of commitment to each other.
We were close again, went to Hawaii for 10 days where some friends loaned us their house. During this time, Julie's pain came back strong for the whole vacation (Vacation syndrome, as described in Dr. Sarno's Healing Back Pain), and while we became "good friends" again, she still couldn't accept TMS as her problem, couldn't even talk about it, insisted she was injured, and went back to her physical therapies. And this reminded me that her first serious experience of back pain was on a vacation to Colorado in 2001 when she was in pain for most of the trip.
So when I suggested we go see Dr. Eisendorf of Santa Cruz,(the only doctor I know of in Northern California who diagnoses TMS), she broke off the reconciliation, and banished me again. Now she has filed for a legal separation (she wants to keep my medical insurance) including an order against me calling her (saying it hurts her back and upsets her emotionally).
Our entire "irreconcilable differences" revolve around her rejection of TMS and my acceptance of it. Everything I've done has been to help her heal and restore her happiness, but her emerging anger complex has turned her very negative and fearful, has even distorted her thoughts to keep me away.
I totally underestimated the strength of the TMS complex to have its way with her and keep her from seeing through its deception and distraction.
Has anyone else had experience with extreme resistance to the TMS diagnosis?
Fred Amir told me in an email that he resisted it at first and only accepted it when he was desperate. Dr. Sarno says, "When someone tells me he is having trouble accepting the diagnosis, I suspect that there is resistance in the subconscious to giving up the TMS."
I suspect that Julie's repressed emotional contents are so frightening or painful that she resists dealing with them and that the back pain is preferable.
Anyway, it's a pretty sad situation, and I would appreciate any relevant or helpful ideas, that might help us solve our problem.
Thanks,
Ralph
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| 19 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| MikeC |
Posted - 03/02/2005 : 15:49:00
Ralph,
I am sorry for the pain that you are going through. I know that your wife is in a bad state so she can't see clearly what she has in a devoted husband. Any illness can bring a family to its knees but the fact that you want to help her is wonderful. Unfortunately, there is not a lot you can do in this situation. She needs to find out that you are trying to help. I'm afraid that one day, she will realize it when it is too late.
As bad as this sounds, you need to continue on with your life. I think everyone on this board tries to do that to the best of their ability. As long as you are there for her if she realizes what she has, that is all you can do. I wish I had the solution for this but she is the only one who can do it.
My thoughts and prayers are with you.
Mike C |
| Fox |
Posted - 03/01/2005 : 16:24:46
It is amazing how similar my wife is to yours as to how she reacts to conflict in the marriage....Thanks for all of the comments...I'll get off this topic for now since it's not strictly TMS. |
| Baseball65 |
Posted - 03/01/2005 : 14:59:40
Hi Fox.
Well,I suppose on a TMS web page that marital problems aren't too off topic.
Those Ideas have worked well.I tend to want to face problems and resolve them quickly,or as quickly as I can.My wife likes to go quiet and give me the silent treatment until she has gathered ALL of her thoughts.
A lot of the time we fought,she didn't have the replies she wanted.So...she'll bring them up later when I am not even "there" any more ,as the expression goes.I don't know what goes on in her head,but she doesn't process stuff as fast as I do,and we were always out of sync with each other.
I always felt this time lag was a form of manipulation....I have to walk around in a state of fear while I wonder what and when she is going to do or say.
I tried to bring it up at a time we were not fighting,but even than she didn't want to address it.She comes from a "just ignore it and it will go away" kind of family.....I come from a family of fighters...literally heavyweight fighters....(and metaphorically as well!)
We were having a really tough time resolving things,and all the usual 'good advice' that you get from well meaning friends wasn't helping...i.e. just let her cool off,You guys will work it out later,go to counseling(been there)
The ideas that Homer puts forth aren't new...I just never got desperate enough or tried to apply them to our marriage.You can't fight with someone who won't fight back.....and once you sense they aren't,you generally remember how foolish it is,and also remember that you used to LOVE that person as recent as weeks or a month or however long ago....you also remember that when you met them,you liked tham for being themselves....If they followed all your advice(almost all fights can be traced to someone trying to control or change anotherperson)...they wouldn't be that person you loved so much any more!!!!
....yeah,but if only....yeah,but,but...
I imagine his strategy only works for the most desperate,but what with all the external stressors stacked against couples staying together these days,I imagine there are LOTS of people who feel a sense of desperation.
If you read Jerry Mander or adbusters,you'd know that it behooves the growth of the distended belly of corporate america to have divorces....they generate multiple households,redundant purchases and incredible expenses...all pumped into the thriving FAKE economy....the more divisive and "individual" and "free" you become,the more of their ****#y products you buy.
"Leave your wife,buy a car,get you own pad and be truly FREE..."
and to her:
"Leave that guy,get plastic surgery,and buy all this stuff in the mall"
...and people wonder why advertising and corporate America turns a blind eye to the decay of relationships,extended family and stability...they don't make money if you SHARE a refrigerator...you need your own.
...anyways..point is,the odds are stacked against any relationship working,so we need a new concept in the area of togetherness,Family and relationships...I think Homers right on the button.
Somewhere deep inside of all of us is the instinctual desire to have a mate AND to want to get along....but sometimes you have to use a different brand of logic...like TMS theory....also NOT good for corporate america.
peace
Baseball65 |
| Fox |
Posted - 02/28/2005 : 15:55:59
Thanks so much Baseball and Mala---Baseball, I was fascinated to hear how this guy's ideas, which are so contrary to orthodox marital therapy, have improved your relationship. Despite your warning, I was not bored at all by what you wrote, and would appreciate hearing any details that you may have left our in an attempt to make a brief presentation....I think this guy has some ideas that could help me. |
| mala |
Posted - 02/25/2005 : 17:05:14
Fox,
I've only ever downloaded a whole book once before and that was Marc Sopher's book 'To be or not to be pain free'. the advantages are that it is cheaper that what you pay in a book store and it is instant.
However, you do need to have lots of paper ready and make sure there is enough ink in your printer. Also, once you have all the pages , you need to think of how to keep them all together. You could take it down to the stationers and they will bind it for you I guess. Reading a book is much nicer than reading than A4 pages though but then if I order a book that is not available here , I would have to pay quite a bit for postage.
Good Luck & Good Health
Mala |
| ralphyde |
Posted - 02/25/2005 : 15:47:57
Correction, Tom, it's her Mom who's on her fourth husband, not Julie. I am her first.
But as a child of divorce, her commitment doesn't seem to be as strong as mine. Her Mom's way seems to be to bury the past and move on, and Julie seems to be following this as well. Whereas my love is stronger than my anger, her anger seems to be stronger than her love. I feel that the TMS complex has taken over her thoughts, casting everything in a negative light, making her unable to trust or forgive, trying to keep the deception and distraction working, and using fear and pain as its tools.
Thanks,
Ralph |
| tennis tom |
Posted - 02/25/2005 : 06:03:43
Dear Ralph,
Sorry for your heartbreak. I also searced far and wide across the state of CA for a "cure" for my physical symptoms. Saw Egoscue in SoCal and also Eisendorf in Santa Cruz. If I'm correct, you were her fifth husband in less than fifty years? Like my yoga teacher says, "It's like a Marin marriage, the first four or five don't count."
It sounds like you had a better than average run given her history. It doesn't sound
like she can change. She wants all the benefits without any of the responsibilities. A reality check maybe the best thing you can do for her to help her get rid of the pain. Cut off all benefits, insurance, income, etc. Having to fend for herself in the real world may be the distraction she needs to "cure" her physical symptoms.
Good luck, I feel for you man, but I've always liked being free too. |
| Baseball65 |
Posted - 02/24/2005 : 16:24:37
Hi..
Sorry to go off the main topic Ralph..
To Fox: I never bought the book!! I just used the info he gave for free on the website! He leaves a pretty extensive amount of info for free....the night I began to use it EXACTLY what he describes on his page happened...
At the time I was doing everything he says NOT to do (being reasonable,wanting to talk about "it",letting her know I still loved her,etc.)
My wife and I were trading the kids (I was staying somewhere else)...she sat on the bed and said "I don't think this is going to work out" ..I had,weeks earlier,brought up the idea of counseling.
I responded "You're right...I don't think it is" and prepared to leave.
She replied "What do you mean? I thought you wanted to work it out?" and I said "I thought about all the stuff you've said over the past months and your right..we're two very different people,and you need your space and I'm going to let you have it"
I had kept it brief,been pleasant and basically let her be angry.I stopped trying to fix our relationship.
Oddly enough,as soon as I followed his advice,I felt better about myself as well.I was actually on the way to a party when we finally spoke for real.
I won't give you the blow by blow and bore you to death,but as soon as I stopped trying to get along and agreed with her wholeheartedly that we were through(and I meant it too) all of a sudden she was defending me,wondering why I had ever left in the first place(probably something in her saying "Get the F out!")
The odd part is...we never did 'resolve' our issues.I still use the technique he describes on that site whenever we have a problem....it doesn't just apply to drama and break up....I don't fight with her at all.
Our marriage is better now 2 months after I was out of the house(for the first time in 12 years) than it ever was before.
I got to see where I was stifling her with my fears,and she has actually awakened to the fact that I am never going "straight" and is OK with it.
...I feel guilty..I should buy the guys book..if ten pages helped that much,I can only imagine what reading the whole book will do.
..But than again,I have had friends with mild periodic backpain who have gotten better just from talking about it with me,and getting an explanation of TMS....funny how openminded they are BEFORE they get to see a specialist.
and Fox....I am writing a book...or a story...Tennis Tom talked me into it.It's not about TMS...It's about a street hood who grows up in a life of violence and crime. He undergoes a healing,spiritual experience and finds himself in a strange life where his crude mannerisms and 80 grit exterior are at odds with his attempt at changing his surroundings and ultimate destiny.He finds a life he never imagined that is even better than the one he supposed he would be forced to live if he ever really changed.
a.k.a....it's sort of a condensed autobiography.
In the first 20 or so pages,I've only lied to protect the innocent...truth is waaaaaaay stranger than fiction
Baseball65 |
| ralphyde |
Posted - 02/24/2005 : 12:02:48
Thanks Laura, Albert, Mala, Baseball65, Logan, Paul, and Dave for your thoughtful comments, questions, and suggestions. While I'm not much further on, it feels good to be responded to in a positive way and I'm grateful to you.
And thanks Baseball, for your story, much of which I could identify with, and I may download that book you linked, though I think it may be too late for that.
There are some things I could expand further on in my story, but I'm not feeling up to it right now, but I will answer any specific questions, and I'll let you know how things go.
Right now, the separation proceedings are somewhat fouled up, as I still haven't been served with the summons after getting the courtesy copies from her lawyer on Valentine's day, and my name is spelled wrong on the filing. So there will be some delay.
Anyway, thanks again,
Ralph |
| Fox |
Posted - 02/24/2005 : 09:33:05
Baseball - on the Stop the Divorce book, it's $20 more (!!!) for the printed copy versus the Ebook. I've never downloaded a whole book before. I've always ordered standard hard copy books which have arrived in the mail. Is there an advantage of ordering one way versus the other way? |
| Fox |
Posted - 02/24/2005 : 08:44:40
Baseball - I just want to thank you for the many helpful insights (always written in an upbeat,humorous,clever, and very readable way) that you have provided over the last few months. You ought to write a book, dude.....I think I'm going to purchase the stop divorce book off the link that you provided. It sounds like it could work for my marriage, because the goodist and holding-tightly-on thing sure isn't working for me. |
| Dave |
Posted - 02/24/2005 : 07:09:46
quote:
I suspect that Julie's repressed emotional contents are so frightening or painful that she resists dealing with them and that the back pain is preferable.
I suspect you are right.
Unfortunately I think you've done all you can do. Some people cannot escape the guilt they feel over "doing it to themselves" (which is totally inaccurate, but nevertheless it is what they believe). Some people need the pain and physical treatments as a distraction. Some people cannot accept the unproven theories of a 'crusader' over the traditional structural diagnoses.
I'm afraid it's up to her. Clearly she needs professional psychological help. Even then, she might never be able to accept that emotions can cause her symptoms, which means she can never get better.
Be sure to examine your own emotions in the context of all of this. Maybe it's time to stop being a 'goodist' and just let go. Maybe if you take an entirely different approach it will sink in. What would happen if you filed for divorce thereby threatening her precious medical insurance? What if you stopped being so caring and wanting to help and got angry with her? I'm not suggesting this, consider it a hypothetical. I'm just saying, maybe it's time to take a radically different approach, since it's clear that what you have already tried has not worked. |
| pault |
Posted - 02/24/2005 : 04:41:35
Sorry to hear of your problems.She does not want to get well,as it serves her needs too well.Sounds like she knows exactly what she is doing.You have gone over the top. I wish you well. Paul. |
| Logan |
Posted - 02/23/2005 : 20:37:11
Ralph,
I don't have any answers for you but I was so moved by your post that I wanted to at least tell you that I read it and that I am sorry for your emotional pain. It seem like a bad deal, you got rid of your physical pain but got this break up in the bargain. I feel for you, it's definitely not "fair."
I hope Baseball's suggestion might work for you.
Take care... |
| Baseball65 |
Posted - 02/23/2005 : 20:22:57
Hi Ralph.
I too live(d) with a wife who had TMS but would not do the work...even more frustrating..she understood and agreed with the concept,(so she said) but wouldn't do any of the introspection ,conditioning breaking and bookwork necessary to heal.
I just dropped it.I told her at one point,(not in anger) that her pain wasn't bad enough for her to do the work,and if it ever got bad enough I would always support her.I stifled my anger as I watched her waste our money and her time seeing chiro's and quacks(meaning she really did NOT get it)
She has now had a bit of respite doing the Louise Hay deal albeit vicariously through me(acknowledge that it's emotional,but deal with it differently)
Also...you were 60 and she was 37 when you got married? That is quite a spread and although I know times are different,you can't be blind to the fact that she might have a lot of other motives for wanting to break up.I guess from the reference you made in the story,the home she had you leave was yours or at least 1/2?
Also,the fact that she wanted only a separation to keep her medical benefits.I imagine since she's in the conventional med circle she's getting Oxy's or Vics for pain Management?
She has no insurance. Does she have a job? How much of her income did you subsidize?
Perhaps you have filled a kind of Father role to her,and now that it isn't 'fun' anymore i.e. her having to confront repressed angers,emotions,she sees it as an opportune time to bail out.
The first guy who told me about TMS scared the shi# out of me when he said "repressed emotions" because I had just had an affair of sorts with another woman and was trying to blot the memory of it out of my mind.....my wife and me were just becoming reconciled and the last thing I needed was her knowing about my indescretion.
This sounds a lot deeper than just a TMS difference of opinion.
care to elaborate??
PS...Here's a link to a website I used when my wife and I were getting ready to get a divorce...I used this gentlemans approach,and we went from lawyers to reconciled in about a week.....like Sarno,I thought it a bunch of crap,and like Sarno,it worked in spite of it seeming to be the wrong thing to do.
The URL is: http://www.stopyourdivorce.com/goto.htm
Let us know how your doing
peace
Baseball65 |
| mala |
Posted - 02/23/2005 : 19:43:04
Dear ralphyde,
So sorry to hear about what has been going on.
The fact that Julie is showing so much resistance towards accepting a tms diagnosis is in itself a very interesting aspect of this whole issue. You say that she has gone through all kinds of therapy including hypnosis so I wonder why it is so difficult for her to accept tms especially since a specialist has already told her that 'we don't know what is causing your pain.' After all one has to be pretty open minded to go for hypnosis, craniosacral etc.
Does she perhaps get the feeling that people around her especially you are starting to think that she is imagining her pain. In other words she could be thinking 'Even my husband doesn't believe that this pain is real'. For us who have read the books we know that even though the pain is caused by emotional problems, the physical pain is absolutely real but to a newbie it may seem that tms means you are crazy.
Another thing is that you say she has had a rough childhood . People who have had abusive pasts are more likely to fight the tms diagnosis as they are especially wary of past things being dragged up although this is not consistant with what you say about her willingness to go for hypnosis.
One more thing and I hope you don't mind my asking but do you think that there is something else going on in your marriage that could be a reason for her wanting to break up with you? The fact that she has filed for an order to stop you from phoning her and then wanting to keep your insurance makes me ask. It seems to me that she is now blaming you for her pain. Do you think that if you promised not to raise the tms issue again that it would help to reconcile your differences?
Do keep us informed of the situation and I hope that things take a turn for the better soon.
Good Luck & Good Health
Mala |
| Albert |
Posted - 02/23/2005 : 17:41:02
It may be that she doesn't want to look at psychological issues.
In a way I'm thank full about TMS because it really motivated me to look at some very important issues in my life. I was desperate about my physical condtion, and therefore was willing to do so.
If somebody could have shown me where I am today 2 months ago, I would have been amazed at what has transpired for me.
.....
If she isn't willing to admit that it could all be in her head you might let her know that it is almost impossible for our emotions to not effect us in a physical way. If we experience sadness our tear ducts might produce tears, if we get embarrassed we might blush, if we're amused we might laugh very hardily, if we're nervous or angry we might shake, and so on and so on.
The only difference with TMS is that it has more to do with the unconscious mind than the conscious mind. |
| ralphyde |
Posted - 02/23/2005 : 15:59:03
Dear Laura,
Thanks so much for your thoughtful reply. Tears came to my eyes as I read it as I felt my loss of Julie again, because I love the real Julie beneath the TMS complex which has taken over her life, maintaining the deception and distraction and distorting her thoughts.
But yes, I have tried not mentioning TMS or Dr. Sarno for months at a time, while we were separated, and after. But it's hard, as I see her doing the very things that delay her healing and prolong the pain, and it's already gone on for 3 1/2 years. You'd think she'd be desperate enought to give it a try. I tried to go on the idea that each person has to find their own path to healing, as her craniosacral therapist told me, and left her alone about it for quite awhile, but nothing came from it, and she drifted further away.
So now I'm at a loss as what to do. Her life seems dominated by negativity and fear (of injuring herself), and she (or at least the TMS complex) now wants me out of her life (though I have been supporting her while she hasn't been able to work).
I never could have imagined that our happy marriage could be destroyed by a disagreement over a couple of books. I still can hardly believe it. She even tells me that deep down she still loves me, but she can't be with me now and wants no communication.
So thanks, Laura, for your thoughts. I'm trying to roll with this the best I can, and I will appreciate any other thoughtful replies.
Thanks,
Ralph |
| Laura |
Posted - 02/23/2005 : 15:14:25
Dear Ralph,
First of all, I would like to commend you for being such a supportive and loving husband. If you have read some of the other posts on this forum you would see that many people would consider themselves lucky to have someone as thoughtful, caring, and kind as you are.
I'm not a psychologist nor do I pretend to be, but if I were to try and analize this situation it sounds like Julie has some pretty deep seated issues that you simply cannot help her with. It sounds like you have made every effort, only to have the door shut in your face over and over. How many times can you try to help someone who will not help themselves? Were you put on this earth to spend your every waking hour trying to convince this person of something that she does not want to be convinced of? Is your life and your well being important too? You are obviously a very selfless person but after awhile one would imagine that the sheer stress of dealing with Julie and her high maintenance bitter family is going to take it's toll on your health as well.
Have you tried saying nothing and sitting back and just allowing whatever will be to be? Maybe you should try it. How does the saying go, "You can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink..." Well, you've led the horse several times but it sounds like the horse has a mind of it's own. Try focusing on yourself and your life separate from Julie for awhile. Give her some space. Maybe she'll wake up and realize what a gem she has. She simply does not want to accept the TMS diagnosis so I think you have to stop cramming it down her throat and move on. If she changes her mind, then you, her loving husband, will be waiting with open arms to help her with the TMS therapy. If not, you can't say you didn't try.
I wish you the best of luck and again, I commend you for being such a gem of a husband. You obviously took your wedding vows very seriously!!! (To love, honor, and cherish not to berate, threaten, abandon!!!). Take care, Ralph. I'll be thinking of you.
Laura
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