| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Suzanne |
Posted - 06/26/2004 : 15:36:14
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http://www.medscape.com/px/viewindex/more?Bucket=columns&SectionId=1517
Expert Interview Index Page from Medscape Orthopaedics & Sports Medicine
An Expert Interview With Dr. John Sarno, Part II: Pain Management Prophet or Pariah? 6/15/2004
"In my experience...they wouldn't get better if the structural abnormality was responsible for their symptoms. They would get better by being educated, which is what I do."
An Expert Interview With Dr. John Sarno, Part I: Back Pain Is a State of Mind 6/8/2004
"I found that large numbers of people in whom pain was being attributed to some structural abnormality actually had a totally different disorder...it had to do with the stresses in patients' lives."
Both I saved as PDF's, letter-sized, and they came out to be 4 pages long. |
| 20 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| April |
Posted - 07/06/2004 : 08:33:00
quote:
Originally posted by JohnD
Thanks TT
I used to try to figure it all out in my pre-Sarno days. Now I'd much rather be doing things that make me happy instead of trying to know it all, which is impossible anyways.
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| JohnD |
Posted - 07/05/2004 : 17:41:17
Thanks TT
I used to try to figure it all out in my pre-Sarno days. Now I'd much rather be doing things that make me happy instead of trying to know it all, which is impossible anyways.
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| tennis tom |
Posted - 07/05/2004 : 11:31:49
quote:
Originally posted by JohnD
I think Lance Armstrong put it best when he says in one of his books that he doesn't know exactly why and doesn't need to know why he recovered from cancer that most doctors thought would kill him. Dr. Sarno's theory is far from perfect, after all he is just a human being. We could sit here all day, every day trying to pick it apart, but I'm satisfied because I am healthier than I was before reading Sarno. I think the lesson to be learned from Sarno is that many of our problems are only illusions created by limitations (or misinterpretations) in our own thinking, and once we overcome these limitations, what was formerly thought of as a problem no longer exists.
JohnD, I like this post of yours. I feel you 'gotta believe in something.
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| JoeW |
Posted - 07/05/2004 : 00:34:28
I tried this for a while, but didn't keep it up. I may get back to it now. Who knows if blood supply is the answer, but Sarno's argument and evidence is good enough for me (and your husband) at this stage.
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| EileenTM |
Posted - 07/04/2004 : 16:49:29
My husband has gotten very good at instantly banishing his TMS symptoms by telling his brain to "send blood" to whatever area is bothering him. It works great for his sciatica as well as his knees and ankles. He does not get numbness just pain. So whatever method his brain is using to induce pain, it responds to the command to send blood. And my husband says it very forcefully. |
| austingary |
Posted - 07/02/2004 : 07:34:00
TT: I do not read into it that Sarno is luke-warm about this evidence. It is not his fault that there have not been more studies.
P. 49: There has been some laboratory confirmation of this hypothesis. (Emphasis mine)
He does not cite twenty years of studies, but rather a study 20 years ago, and another, plus a paper, ten years ago, then something recent. Even those references are vague and the "evidence" depends on other, unproven conclusions, such as Sarno's belief that fibromylagia is TMS (which I imagine is true, yet it's unproven).
P. 50 "If research were to demonstrate some other autonomically-induced pain pathology, I would not be disturbed.
P. 50 "I have focused on the oxygen deprivation concept because it is the most logical one available (ed. argumentative evidence) and there is laboratory evidence for it (see previous).
All sounds pretty luke-warm to me.
TT: Having made a decision then you should close your mind and take action otherwise lingering doubts will de-rail you.
Well, you might want to keep the door cracked, just in case evidence appears that is too big for your resistance and you want to change your mind.
TT: If the evidence is good enough for Sarno then it's good enough for me.
Guess this is where you and I part company, TT. "If the evidence is good enough for (Stalin, Saddam Hussein, Pol Pot, Jimmy Carter -- oops, sorry, Jimmuh -- Lenin, Trotsky, Hitler -- should I go on?) it's good enough for me!" Just not my way of thinking. |
| tennis tom |
Posted - 07/01/2004 : 23:52:17
Gary, I re-read page 49 of MBP where Sarno cites multiple studies over a 20 year period that support mild oxygen deprivation as the probable source of TMS pain. I do not read into it that Sarno is luke-warm about this evidence. It is not his fault that there have not been more studies. It is not surprising considering the almost complete denial by medical science that his TMS theory even exists.
Sarno accepts these studies as confirmation for his career long personal observations. I trust the Good Doctor's ability to discern a good scientific study when he sees one.
In this age of widespread institutional lying, where the NY Times publishes fiction as fact and once prestigious Universities such as Harvard are more concerned with being PC than the truth, everyone is on their own as to what they believe. In coming to a decision one should keep an open mind. Having made a decision then you should close your mind and take action otherwise lingering doubts will de-rail you.
I accepted the studies Sarno cited on page 49 the first time I read them years ago and still do on re-reading. If the evidence is good enough for Sarno then it's good enough for me. |
| austingary |
Posted - 06/30/2004 : 09:56:52
Dave:Sarno's theory is just as valid as your claim that mental "tension" simply puts the muscle tissue into physical "tension", which eventually turns into trigger-point knots, or your statements that people have a tendency to hold their muscles in rictus. There is no scientific proof of any of this.
Nor did I claim any. I have no basis on which to claim scientific superiority to Sarno or anyone else on these matters. These are just my observations and opinions. I thought that was clear. It is not as though I am writing books on this subject and presenting myself as an expert.
That having been said, I don't think it requires much scientific proof to know that there are such things as "knots" in muscle tissue that hurt. Most of us have had them. Or that many people carry themselves with their muscles in a rictus. I have not only experienced this myself but I observe it in others.
A more salient point is that there is no real scientific proof of anything that Dr. Sarno claims. He is, after all, the one who is writing books on the subject, not me.
But scientific proof is not required for someone to get benefit from using Sarno's anti-TMS techniques. Nor is religious belief in his theories. I could see, when I first read his book, that the evidence was just testimonial and my belief on his ideas was very tentative. Yet, I did the work and got good benefit from it.
BTW, Dave, I love the "Preview" window. It really works well. |
| kenny V |
Posted - 06/30/2004 : 08:39:38
If oxygen deprivation is present in a painful muscle site and or spasm this is irrelevant.
If this is so, Oxygen depravation causing the pain has nothing to do with applying Sarno's work.
Why should it hinder us from understanding how the emotional components of the auto immune system can altar an effect on the physical level? To me the Ox theory does make sense but it doesn’t necessarily mean it is the deprivation that is causing the pain, it can also be the result of a chemical change in the muscle due to the emotional change of state in the area.
Not many studies are done, unless the one carrying out the study is trying to prove or expand on a specific theory. I suspect that during a chemical change, due to an emotional stressor, the bodies own ability to block pain is being absorbed inhibiting natural pain blockers, and as a result of the change, oxygen deprivation is present.
The fact that people have reported knots the size of golf balls, sensations such as glass piercing through the skin, along with pains and symptoms that are clearly physical manifestations, only reinforces the power of physical changes due to emotional changes.
Always Hope For Recovery
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| austingary |
Posted - 06/29/2004 : 13:16:49
Regarding proof of TMS, if memory serves me, Sarno cites a study that biopsed muscle tissue in a "TMS" state and found less oxygen then normal at a cellular level.
If you re-read what Sarno has to say about this experiment, he seems kind of luke-warm about it. In any case, I wonder if the experimenters could tell whether the low oxygen caused the painful state or the painful state caused the low oxygen? Or both were caused by something else? A good example of "correlational evidence" that may not mean what you think it does, isn't it?
Seems to me that if something -- mental "tension" or something else -- caused the muscles to tighten up, just that tightening would compress blood vessels and restrict the oxygen supply. There's some "argumentative evidence" to add to your basket! |
| tennis tom |
Posted - 06/29/2004 : 10:01:13
Regarding proof of TMS, if memory serves me, Sarno cites a study that biopsed muscle tissue in a "TMS" state and found less oxygen then normal at a cellular level. |
| 2scoops |
Posted - 06/29/2004 : 09:14:10
"Now if only this debate could be carried out in the medical community, maybe there would be some progress towards proving (or disproving) Sarno's theory. In the mean time, I'll accept his clinical observations and my own experience at face value."
Thank you Dave, I feel the same way. |
| Dave |
Posted - 06/29/2004 : 08:56:59
Cutting blood flow to your hand by strapping a belt on your arm does not prove anything one way or another. Does it cut off blood flow to the hand? Sure. Is this a valid reproduction of the "mild oxygen deprivation" that Sarno talks about? No.
I don't pretend to offer any facts about this; perhaps my words can be more carefully chosen if they come across that way. We don't know, and won't know in our lifetime, the exact mechanism of TMS. Sarno's theory is just as valid as your claim that mental "tension" simply puts the muscle tissue into physical "tension", which eventually turns into trigger-point knots, or your statements that people have a tendency to hold their muscles in rictus. There is no scientific proof of any of this.
Now if only this debate could be carried out in the medical community, maybe there would be some progress towards proving (or disproving) Sarno's theory. In the mean time, I'll accept his clinical observations and my own experience at face value. |
| austingary |
Posted - 06/28/2004 : 20:13:42
Dave: No doubt that blood flow to the area is reduced, but other things happen in the body as well as a result of doing this. Perhaps the brain shuts down nerves in the area as a protective mechanism.
I think you're reaching here. Usually, you don't want to invent new, more complicated, unproven explanations to justify a theory. Occam's Razor: Use the simplest explanation that fits the observed facts.
We cannot be sure that mild oxygen deprivation to soft tissue does not cause pain.
This is a logical fallacy called "Appeal to Ignorance". Something is true because it cannot be proven false. Or it is false because it cannot be proven true.
We cannot "be sure" that the pain is not caused by demons. But no more likely for that.
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| tennis tom |
Posted - 06/28/2004 : 14:02:55
JohnD,
Thanks for that thoughtful interpretaion of Dr. Sarno's message. It's very useful.
tt |
| tennis tom |
Posted - 06/28/2004 : 14:00:13
quote:
Originally posted by JohnD
I think Lance Armstrong put it best when he says in one of his books that he doesn't know exactly why and doesn't need to know why he recovered from cancer that most doctors thought would kill him. Dr. Sarno's theory is far from perfect, after all he is just a human being. We could sit here all day, every day trying to pick it apart, but I'm satisfied because I am healthier than I was before reading Sarno. I think the lesson to be learned from Sarno is that many of our problems are only illusions created by limitations (or misinterpretations) in our own thinking, and once we overcome these limitations, what was formerly thought of as a problem no longer exists.
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| kenny V |
Posted - 06/28/2004 : 12:38:08
Good stuff John D 
Always Hope For Recovery
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| JohnD |
Posted - 06/28/2004 : 10:39:08
I think Lance Armstrong put it best when he says in one of his books that he doesn't know exactly why and doesn't need to know why he recovered from cancer that most doctors thought would kill him. Dr. Sarno's theory is far from perfect, after all he is just a human being. We could sit here all day, every day trying to pick it apart, but I'm satisfied because I am healthier than I was before reading Sarno. I think the lesson to be learned from Sarno is that many of our problems are only illusions created by limitations (or misinterpretations) in our own thinking, and once we overcome these limitations, what was formerly thought of as a problem no longer exists. |
| Dave |
Posted - 06/28/2004 : 09:32:55
quote:
Originally posted by goodguy
An interesting point: Dr. Sarno says that he doesn't recommend relaxation techniques because TMS is not a physical disorder.
I believe Dr. Sarno is referring directly to physical exercises such as stretching. |
| goodguy |
Posted - 06/28/2004 : 08:44:37
An interesting point: Dr. Sarno says that he doesn't recommend relaxation techniques because TMS is not a physical disorder. I have always thought of relaxation as more mental than physical. I wonder what this means for the non-Western part of the world. Does one have to accept the Western ideas of Freud in order to be cured of TMS? In the East, a mindbody approach to medicine has been the dominant form of treatment for all disorders until the relatively recent past. Haven't doctors in the East had success for generations in understanding the psychological origins of most disease, and in successfully treating them with programs that reduce stress on the midnbody (yoga, meditation, nutrition, toxin cleansing, etc?).
I would imagine that most Ayurvedic doctors would not feel that the concept of TMS is anything new. Or, maybe TMS, as described by Dr. Sarno, is a uniquely Western problem due to higher levels of self-imposed stress that can be traced to cultural origins.
Personally, it seems to make sense to me that mediation would be a natural adjunct to the TMS program of education and thinking psychologically. In fact, Dr. selfridge has made it a part of her program.
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