| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| elise8 |
Posted - 02/15/2005 : 14:19:40
Well I feel like I have failed. My shoulder immobility got so bad that every time I tried to pull down my pants to go to the bathroom I just about died in pain when I try to reach my right arm toward my backside. The range of motion was getting worse so saw the doctor and the diagnosis now is adhesive capsulitis (frozen shoulder). First they said rotator cuff tear but now they say adhesive capsulitis.
I am currently in physical therapy 2 to 3 x per week. I feel like even after I cured my lower back pain some years ago with Sarno's books, that I just did not succeed with the shoulder problem. After two months of trying to ignore it and reading my Sarno books,etc., the immobility and range of motion got worse. In physical therapy they said I should have come in sooner and now it will take quite a while to break up the "stuck" shoulder. I guess they say there is fluid in there that is usually very thin and moves easily allowing the rotator cuff to move around but mine is thick and sticky causing the rotator cuff muscles to "freeze" up giving me no range of motion. The PT said the new research shows that this is an autoimmune disorder, the immune system "over-attacks" an area of injury. When I heard that my heart kind of sunk as I also have been diagnosed with Meniere's disease which I have been told is also an autoimmune disorder. So now I am totally depressed, am going through angonizing pain in rehab with the physical therapist (PT)trying to stretch and release this shoulder. The pain is the most excruciating pain I have ever had in my life but it only happens when I MOVE the shoulder in certain positions. The PT is slowly trying to push the stretches to break up the sticky stuff to release the shoulder. God I almost pass out and throw up when they do these stretches, it is so painful. So now I guess I am stuck in this diagnosis frame of mind until I at least get some mobility. If after the PT is over (it could last a while) I am still having pain even with increased mobility, then I will know it is TMS. But if the therapy works and I regain my moblity then I will know that just possibly it was a physical problem. But I just have been so depressed lately thinking that somehow I failed and that I lost the battle against the TMS demon...I think I will go have a crying spell again....
Elise
Elise8 |
| 16 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| menvert |
Posted - 02/21/2005 : 18:14:26
Yes what Dave says is very true,
I have made the biggest progress in the last six months than the previous year of TMS approach.
And strangely enough, that is the last six months that I have completely stopped any form of exercise related to therapy....
Now, I will do weights and ride my bike because I want to, riding a bike is a good one, because it is transport it's not just exercise, BUT not because I need to for my specific injuries.
I stopped my yoga, I stopped swimming, I stopped all my stretching and I stopped taking vitamins. And my body happens to be in the best shape its ever been pretty much :)
The only exercise I entertain doing, is if its something I just wanted to or it is something specifically that I 'shouldn't do' from a physical diagnosis point of view... in order to push through my TMS fears.
There is a fine line between exercise for exercise sake & exercise for therapy... and unless you have come close to mastering/accepting TMS fully any sort of specific muscle building exercise may be more detrimental than beneficial.... |
| Dave |
Posted - 02/21/2005 : 14:01:18
quote:
I know how to use the TMS self talk as I have used it on my back. I will continue to use it on my shoulder to the best of my ability.
Exercises and PT are not consistent with the TMS approach. Too many people fall into this trap. If you don't believe a symptom is TMS -- if you think the problem may be physical -- if you do physical treatments and exercises with the express intent of healing that symptom, then "TMS self talk" is really of no benefit.
Many people who wonder why their symptoms don't improve, or why new symptoms develop, have not given themselves over 100% to the diagnosis.
So, if you truly believe your frozen shoulder has a physical origin, by all means proceed with PT and exercise, but don't bother treating it as TMS because you can't get to step #2 if you choose not to submit to step #1. |
| elise8 |
Posted - 02/21/2005 : 12:00:38
Thanks baseball for doing all that cutting and pasting. Don't worry you did not hurt my feelings. I rather enjoyed the syntax examination.
I just know I am doing the best I can right now. I will take your words to heart and know that I will heal. It may not be in minutes like your shoulder was. We are two different people with possibly two different problems. I know how to use the TMS self talk as I have used it on my back. I will continue to use it on my shoulder to the best of my ability. That was interesting that one poster said she would not let the PT touch her. Very interesting thought and something to keep in mind. I am not sure how long I will continue to go to PT. I do have this underlying FEAR that they will want to keep me going for as long as possible and I certainly will not allow that to happen.
To LJJ. May I ask what exercises you used at home with your frozen shoulder? I may try some of yours if you would explain them. If I do not see much improvement in at least a month, I will not continue PT that is for sure. I have also heard that some cases of frozen shoulder just heal through time on their own without any PT. Each case is different. In the meantime I continue to use my shoulder. I type all day in my job, cook and clean at home, drive, etc. I have not let it stop my life. The only thing I cannot do well is certain aspects of dressing where you move your arms to the rear position and lifting weights. The lifting weights i miss the most. My arms are turning to mush! Sleeping is still difficult as it hurts to lay on the right shoulder still. Last night I just said, "screw the shoulder, it is just my mind playing tricks". So I just laid on it anyway and a few hours later the pain was so severe it woke me up and took me a while to recover. Hard to keep repeating that action.
Thanks again for all the comments. Very insightful of you all.
Elise
I was also interested in Godmother's post stating she had frozen shoulder in the questionaire. Can you elaborate on that Godmother and how you got rid of the frozen shoulder???
thanks Elise
ALSO, IS THERE A SPELL CHECK AVAIALABLE for these posts? I am lost without one..
Elise8 |
| Baseball65 |
Posted - 02/19/2005 : 14:01:40
quote:
I actually saw Dr. Sarno and John Staussel on 20/20 years ago and while watching the story of how John Staussel(sp?) was cured using Sarno's method, I knew I would get better
quote:
So I have decided I will finish out PT with a more positive attitude and know this will become "unstuck" with time.
quote:
I feel confident that the physical therapy and the hands on stretching by the PT will help. They are pretty caring people that are working on me and feel that I will heal.
quote:
He told me to be positive, relax, use the arm and just know and belive that it will heal.
quote:
I believe there is some phsical cause to my lack of range of motion.
I hate semantics,but I am a fan of literature and look for continuity,foreshadowing and trends in all writing....It was hard to read your string and NOT see the obvious threads.Everything you have believed and known has come true.
I won't waste your reading time patronizing you,and I make no claims about knowing your situation,but there seems to be a running thread of you KNOWing things and there surety.
My Shoulder went bad about 18 months after a complete back recovery....I of course was certain it was structural....it was NOT...the treatments were merely placebo's.THanK GOD I did NOT like my doctor...I throw baseballs all day,every day...of course there is always a 'reason'...that's why the camouflage is so effective.
I had to re-open the excavation into the sunconscious...what was it now???
As soon as I stopped the cortisone shots and the rest and worked on the psychological,it evaporated in minutes after WEEKS of needles and stretches and rest.
quote:
Anyway, as far as my back, as soon as I read the book, and re-read the book many times, my back pain slowly got better. I was so fearful that I would have to have surgery many years ago and so fearful that the doctor's diagnoses were "correct" that the fear kept me a prisoner of this pain
quote:
Believe me I tried this with my shoulder for two months and it just kept getting stiffer and more stuck. Then the fear mode set in.
quote:
My emotions have been "stuck" also in some negativity so am working on that. The old
fear mode started to creep in and am working on getting rid of that.
What is the distinction between your old fear and the new?
quote:
I am really not having all that much stress in my life now, things are going rather well in my marriage and life so I am going to work on my attitude about the healing of this shoulder. I do have some grief and guilt going on with my sister who has been diagnosed with cancer, guilt about not being able to be with her as much as I would like.
I'm really not having all that much stress in my life...because I have a distraction!!!
Just a guess,but i imagine your sister and yourself aren't too far apart in age,parents are the same??
Mortality...What if this happened to me? Oh my GoD!! Life can change on a dime...what if I lose my sister??? What regrets might I have about not being the "perfect" sister? How can she do this to me? She can't leave me.
When you are back to using ROM(I had to think on that one) and other terms,you have thrown the door open to all the other diagnoses.
A well known mindbody writer who designates specific symptoms to specific emotional situations,sites the shoulder as representing the inability to proceed thru life joyously....that is Certainly what was going on when my shoulder hurt.
I was throwing batting practices to my sons all star team INSTEAD of playing in my own adult league.SUB consciously,I was resenting the time and effort,though in my conscious mind I was sooo proud of my little all star.
As soon as I brought my anger at the imposition to my conscious mind it went away immediately.
How does your sisters cancer make YOU feel? You wrote you wished you could spend more time with her(moral imperative)..
What else is going on in your life??? There was a lot of structural evidence and jargon,but very little text on what is going on in your life....
Perhaps you've convinced yourself it is structural,but as a very successfully healed MB patient,you didn't convince me...
I didn't cut and paste all this text to try and hurt or embarrass you...I am truly concerned about your well being.
piece
Baseball65 |
| n/a |
Posted - 02/19/2005 : 10:54:56
Elise,
i just wanted to encourage you about the range of motion thing. I injured my shoulder a few years ago and kept guarding moving it and ended up with a frozen shoulder with very small range of motion. I did go to a physical therapist but I refused to let him touch me. Instead I had him show me what exercises and stretches to perform at home each day. (He told me he had never had a patient get their range of motion back by just doing the stretches and exercises on their own. He wanted to get in there and push and pull on the shoulder.) I worked at it and got the full range of motion back in 3 months to his amazement. I also did a lot of deep breathing when I was laying down and doing my shoulder stretches and tried to treat it like a game. The pain got less as I was able to stretch it more. The big thing is not to get freaked out by it and start worrying if you will get the range of motion back as it just makes the pain worse. Hope you're soon able to sleep better. (I did the Sleepytime tea as well!)
Take care,
LJJ |
| elise8 |
Posted - 02/19/2005 : 10:11:31
I still have the darned dizziess, mainly at night. My shouler bothers me at night as I can't sleep on that side which I am used to. Between the diziness and shoulder problem, nights have been a real challenge. I drink a very strong cup of Sleepytime extra strength tea with chamomile and valerian root to help me drift off, just started doing this and it seems to help..
I had a similar procedure done years back on my uterus where they had to dilate me and take out tissue samples. Boy was that uncomfortable as I recall, especially the dilation, like labor pains!
I wish you a speedy recovery and maybe you will get a break from your dizziness. Your stomach problems sound very uncomfortable. Are you researching any natural approaches for it? My husband once suffered from terrible stomach pain, burning and knife stabbing pains.I researched natural juicing and started giving him juice from raw cabbages and potato and it cleared it up in a week. He was very thankful. Try researching that on a yahoo search and see what comes up. Type in cabbage juice or potato juice. Not sure if it will work if it is TMS, but it would not hurt to try!
S.G. I wish you luck in your struggle to regain your muscle strength. Sounds like you have been through a challenging time. You sound positive though and I now realize that attitude is just about the key to healing from any disorder, including TMS.
Good luck and thanks for your comments. It helps.
ELISE
Elise8 |
| Laura |
Posted - 02/18/2005 : 10:44:35
Elise,
Just out of curiosity, while your shoulder has been giving you a run for the money, how has your dizziness been? The reason I ask is, my stomach symptoms have been ruling my life for a few weeks and the dizziness has been pretty much gone (just a couple BRIEF episodes). Maybe I'm holding onto the stomach pain for fear that when it lets up I'll be back to the dizzies again. Yesterday, I had a rather uncomfortable medical procedure done (gynecological -polyp removal) and my stomach pretty much stopped hurting for the day. I also was not dizzy! This morning, back to the stomach pain and cramping (some of which could be related to what I had done yesterday - or not!)
I'm glad you have a handle on things. Good luck!
Laura
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| elise8 |
Posted - 02/18/2005 : 10:04:03
You are right Dave to a certain extent. I am in the physical realm now but am confident that I will heal with this current mode of therapy and a positive attitude. After I regain my range of motion, I am also confident that it will never happen again. If I do feel twinges, I will most definitely attribute it to TMS and not let it become a chronic condition. I just want the darned range of motion to come back which I know it will as I already seen improvement. I feel that there are times when physical therapy approach can be useful, as long as you don't make it a habit or become dependent on it, and the symptoms do not become chronic. I feel that in certain cases, you can be injured or have a psysiologic cause and that it can be a dual approach with the therapy and the mind/body technique used. I really think that in some cases it is not just an "all or nothing" approach. The body is both physical and mental/emotional after all, or at least I believe it is. I mean you can break a leg and have pain and with a physical approach and positive attitute that it will heal, and with time it does. Same with soft tissue injuries in car accidents or other trauma. There is real physical damage but with time and often therapy it will heal. It is just when things go on and on never resolve, then you have to look at only the emotional. Thanks though for your comments. I am confident that I will not be spending a whole lot of time with the PT. Just enough to get my ROM back and then I will work on gaining ROM on my own at home. Once I get my full ROM back, then I will do strengthening and weights and I know I will be back to normal. If I keep this attitude, then I know I will heal. I am not discounting TMS in any way, I just think at times there can be a physical cause to CERTAIN symptoms caused by trauma. I know my body by now, having dealt with TMS before and I just feel that this "frozen shoulder" is not totally TMS. Maybe some fear WAS playing a part initially but I have a handle on it now and am confident I will be fine. Thanks again for your comments. This board helps me tremendously!
Elise.
Elise8 |
| Dave |
Posted - 02/18/2005 : 08:03:27
quote:
I believe there is some phsical cause to my lack of range of motion. My initial injury really scared me and then I injured it over again many times. The shoulder now is really stuck.
The above indicates that you are firmly in the physical realm now. Actually you ventured back to the physical realm when you listened to what you read about resting the shoulder, which is clearly contradictory to the TMS approach.
The bottom line is, you can't have it both ways. If you go for PT, and believe there is a "physical cause" and that you "injured it over again" then you are in direct contradiction with Step #1 of the TMS approach. So forget entirely about TMS for now and focus on your PT, since that is the choice you have made. Hopefully you will get the relief you seek, and the next time a symptom comes up, you'll give TMS a fair chance before allowing the fear to drive you back to the physical realm. |
| elise8 |
Posted - 02/18/2005 : 07:33:45
Thanks for all your replies. I was in a bad state of mind for sure when I wrote that post. I am better now. I did have about a month of inactivity and with my arm and my muscles have atrophied. I believe there is some phsical cause to my lack of range of motion. My initial injury really scared me and then I injured it over again many times. The shoulder now is really stuck. My emotions have been "stuck" also in some negativity so am working on that. The old
fear mode started to creep in and am working on getting rid of that. I feel confident that the physical therapy and the hands on stretching by the PT will help. They are pretty caring people that are working on me and feel that I will heal. I have to learn to relax when they stretch the arm in to the certain painful positions and I feel myself slowly loosening up with each session. It is a very hard thing to indure but I know necessary. I am really not having all that much stress in my life now, things are going rather well in my marriage and life so I am going to work on my attitude about the healing of this shoulder. I do have some grief and guilt going on with my sister who has been diagnosed with cancer, guilt about not being able to be with her as much as I would like.
Anyway, as far as my back, as soon as I read the book, and re-read the book many times, my back pain slowly got better. I was so fearful that I would have to have surgery many years ago and so fearful that the doctor's diagnoses were "correct" that the fear kept me a prisoner of this pain. After reading the book I knew that it was TMS. I actually saw Dr. Sarno and John Staussel on 20/20 years ago and while watching the story of how John Staussel(sp?) was cured using Sarno's method, I knew I would get better. John's story was just like mine. I immediatly got the book started reading and my back was better in a few months. It occasionally flares up with minor pain but I just do "brain talk" and it goes away. Believe me I tried this with my shoulder for two months and it just kept getting stiffer and more stuck. Then the fear mode set in.I then read somewhere that I must rest it first and so had no activity for a month, "babying it". The frozen shoulder got worse and soon I could not even dress myself. That is when I saw a doctor and was sent to PT. So I have decided I will finish out PT with a more positive attitude and know this will become "unstuck" with time. I also just got Schechter's CDs and have listened to them. They are very helpful but yet mostly talk about people with back pain. CD #3 is very helpful with the interview with the psychotherapist. Very interesting. Dr. Schecther does a very good job of explaining TMS and puts a little different spin on it than Sarno which I find helpful.
Anyway, thanks again for your imput. I am going to try to emphasize the psychological in this healing process of my shoulder, however, I really do believe there is an physiological element also that just needs some time and therapy to heal. I am not babying my arm now and use it quite a bit. Even the PT told me to do this. He told me to be positive, relax, use the arm and just know and belive that it will heal. They told me not to use weights but to use the arm and to keep ranging it. The joint capsule is actually stuck and it does take time to get it "unstuck".
Elise
Elise8 |
| Hilary |
Posted - 02/16/2005 : 17:24:57
Elise,
You MUST shift your focus on to emotional issues. What's going on in your life right now? how are you feeling about the people around you? What are you angry about??? |
| moose1 |
Posted - 02/16/2005 : 10:46:34
I think I've told this story before, but a friend of mine had similar pain...shoulder, arm and hand...that was so bad he would see stars if he moved it the wrong way. He finally had surgery on the "pinched nerve" in his neck after months of trying everything else. The surgery did absolutely nothing for his pain.
Then, for a totally unrelated reason, he changed careers and went from a super high stress IT job to making custom cabinets...something he always wanted to do. After two weeks at his new job, his pain was completely gone and has never once returned. That was about 4 years ago.
I'm not saying you need to do something as drastic as changing careers, but in most cases, this "auto-immune" thing *IS* TMS. You just gotta find out what the root purpose for the pain distraction is.
Moose |
| tennis tom |
Posted - 02/16/2005 : 09:51:09
Elise,
If it's any help, I had excruciating pain that sounds much like yours, about ten years ago, before I found Sarno/TMS. I went to my family doctor who sent me to a neurolgist. He hooked my up to some contraption that measures electrical nerve impulses, an EMG, I think and deduced pinched nerve C6/C7 vertebrae. He told me to quit playing tennis for a month or "I would be seeing him for surgery".
He prescribed a contraption to do neck traction for an hour a day. I basicly sat quietly with this gizmo under my chin hung from a door to stretch my neck out. It was very boring, a form of Western Meditation, as Deepak would say. I busied myself by reading Dan Millmans's book, the "Warrior Athlete" and learned how to write left handed, practicing a tip from Millman's book to learn to do things with the other side of your brain.
I started playing tennis again cautiously after about two weeks. Today, my shoulder is as good as new. I have a really great serve, it is my weapon.
Thank God I didn't do any x-rays back then, who knows what that could have turned up. Your shoulder sounds like mine did and I just wanted to encourage you that it could be as good as new again. I had to hold my arm over my head while walking because the pain was so bad in certain positions. |
| Logan |
Posted - 02/16/2005 : 08:57:27
Elise,
You actually have been getting good news. Anytime you hear the phrase "autoimmune disorder," what you are really hearing is "this is TMS." Autoimmune literally means the mindbody is working against itself. What you can do from here is figure out why.
Why did you have lowback pain years ago? How did you heal from that?Have you tried these same methods for the shoulder manifestation, if not, why?
If so, what else could you try? Did you see Dr. Sarno or Schecter? Did you see a psychotherapist before you saw the physical one? What's going on emotionally in your life right now?
Did you realize in this post you only talked about your shoulder and not your mind/emotions?
Regarding the shoulder and how you should have gone in sooner: I heard that same load of BS from the PT and the chiro I was seeing for my shoulder pain, so don't believe them. Of course they will tell you it's your fault for not coming in sooner, that way the onus rests on you, not them. That way you must come back and back and back to see them, lining their pockets with your money.
Don't buy what they're selling.
Like Baseball said in another thread, if only contractors could give your house an MRI, then they'd never be out of work. |
| Dave |
Posted - 02/15/2005 : 15:47:44
You need to stop the self-defeating attitude. It is coming from the same place that causes your TMS.
My guess is that you did not really apply the full TMS approach to your shoulder if it has gotten to this point. "Frozen shoulder" (if it is even the correct diagnosis) implies that the muscles have atrophied. That is due to inactivity, which means that you did not resume full physical activity; you likely "babied" your shoulder.
Now, you are stuck back in the physical realm. You are accepting this diagnosis and all of the physical explanations the PT is giving you.
I am not discounting the possibility that you have a physical problem in your shoulder now that requires physical therapy. But I wonder if you did it to yourself through lack of physical activity, which implies that you really didn't follow all of the necessary steps for TMS recovery.
I wish you good luck in your PT, but I seriously hope you get a more positive attitude and stop being so hard on yourself. |
| hotshot468 |
Posted - 02/15/2005 : 14:25:08
Sorry to hear about your shoulder ,, not fun. Can you explain your situation with your back? I have had chronic back pain, sciatica for 3.5 years. Any tips you can give on getting rid of it? Thanks and get to feeling better --- Jimmy |
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