| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| JulesJ |
Posted - 11/28/2011 : 06:49:30
Hi all,
Feeling down in the dumps today about ongoing TMS and would appreciate any pep talks from anyone who took more than 12 months to recover after ascribing their symptoms to TMS -- but who did recover in the end!
I'm 38. I had a disc op in my late teens, and on discovering Dr Sarno saw off another likely one around a decade ago. I was good for years - I'd sometimes get back pain, and perhaps ascribe it to a pseudo physical cause (dancing, sleeping on someone's floor) but I had no leg pain, sciatica, I hiked for miles every day, in short my back went away.
About 3 years ago I started getting tingly pains in my legs / thighs when sitting, and very cold feet. Last May, when I had my guard down and was under a lot of emotional stress (family illnesses, relationship breakdowns, work etc) I had a major relapse -- the full bed ridden thing.
With Sarno, I was walking in pain within about a week, and was pain free for a couple of days within two months. But since then it's kept coming and going.
In particular, I just cannot get rid of this sitting leg pain/tingling, which if anything is getting worse with some weakness in my legs. It's always worse at a particular work desk (I move about) and it goes shortly on standing, goading me into thinking it's physical. (I have had all sorts of TMS equivalents and have benefited in the past from Nocebos, plus my previous Sarno experience, so I *believe* I am sure it's TMS).
I realise I should be patient, but it feels like a reservoir of a potential new outbreak. Also, I feel I didn't fully purge the TMS last time, so feel I should be aiming for near-100% this time. (A bit of pain now and then fair enough).
Perhaps foolishly, I veered a little from pure Sarno at the start of the year, and started reading about anxiety - Alison Weeks (sp?). Tolle etc - and trying to ignore/float more than fight. I'm not sure this was wise now, but I was pursuing closure on it all.
On good days I can do my old weight routine and walk for a few miles without pain. However standing in one place for an hour or two (e.g. a pub, or even 10 mins on a train/tube) or this sitting brings it back.
Has anyone got to this plateau in progress over such a long time and still gone on to recover? (My first recovery with Sarno took a week, max).
Pep talks appreciated! I feel like I got rid of it briefly last summer, if only for a few days, and yet it's kept coming back, so I am wondering if I really have the tools to finish it after all.
Thanks in advance for anyone's time.
best
J. |
| 20 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| gailnyc |
Posted - 03/22/2013 : 17:03:04
quote:
Originally posted by guej
Jules, to your point about recovered people coming back to the forum...you'll notice I haven't posted my success story yet. I think, as you mentioned with your quick recovery, it's part uneasiness that by doing so we're somehow going to jinx ourselves. I'm not sure I think of myself as "cured" because I still have all the awful, anxiety-producing habits that got me into this pain mess in the first place, even though I'm not in pain anymore.
Which brings me to Ace1's question. Ironically, I changed the most while in the midst of pain. I finally let myself off the hook from being the perfect employee/perfect mother/perfect house etc. because I physically couldn't do it with all the pain. It was the first time in my life I took care of my own needs first. In that regard, I have to agree with Dr. Sarno that perhaps the distraction of pain takes us away from all the other worries in our life. Unfortunately, now that the pain is gone, I'm back to my usual high-strung, worrywart self. It's actually quite disappointing because I really didn't learn my lesson.
Actually, I do think I'm much better off than before because I'm 100% aware of my negative thinking patterns. Going the TMS route has certainly given me a lot of perspective on my personality. Let's just say I'm a work in progress. The really good news, though, is that I now make the connection between tightness in my neck or throbbing at an old pain sight, with the fact that I'm usually aggravated about something and not expressing it outwardly. I have also mastered (for the most part), the art of not getting worked up over some minor pangs of pain here and there. I just assume they will go away, and they do. In the past, I would have run to physical therapy for anything lasting more than a week. I'm now much more of a believer of "the body heals itself" if our worrying and obsessive minds don't get in the way.
As for pushing through the pain...that was a mixed bag. At first, I followed the Fred Amir approach in Rapid Recovery from Back and Neck pain. I gradually increased my activity and tracked it closely. Like I said, I had about a 50% improvement and I was thrilled beyond belief. Then it tapered off, I had a setback and it became a source of frustration. Again, only with the benefit of hindsight can I now say that it was re-interpretation of the pain that helped me. So in other words, when I had pain while running or standing for too long, I made peace with it. Before, I would get worked up, aggravated, etc. When you're in the middle of pain, it's hard to think rationally. I also stopped tracking what I did or trying to prove something to myself. I let myself off the hook if I couldn't do what I set out to do and stopped making recovery such a project. It's very hard to force "letting go". I knew it was what I had to do, but I couldn't make myself do it. I can't put my finger on when it clicked. It just sort of unwound itself when I stopped trying to hard.
As for "recovery", I considered myself recovered in that I no longer have non-stop pain in the same places every day. Those nerve pathways have quieted down. I still get foot pain or achilles pain every now and then when I run (from old "injuries", I'm told). I no longer believe injuries from years ago still act up. I think what happens is that we have nerve memories just like we have muscle memory. Certain actions or emotions flare those up, but if you don't pay them much attention, they fade and don't take hold. I do have chronic insomnia. It's a bad habit that my body developed when I couldn't sleep due to pain. Even with the pain gone, the insomnia persists. However, I think a lot of it has to do with my highly anxious personality, and when I finally learn to deal with that, something tells me the insomnia will resolve itself...I'm not going to worry too much about it or I'll have replaced pain obsession with insomnia obession.
Hope this helps. Most importantly, just maintain hope you can get better. It's interesting, but we shouldn't monitor everyone else so closely in order to get better. We should just believe it's possible, right? But in reality, we all want some kind of verification that someone as bad off as us was able to get better so therefore, we can better too. I followed "Skizzik"s posts on this forum for about a year. He had a very simliar experience to what I was going through....trying so hard, following the program to a tee, asking lots of questions, reaching out for help, etc, and finally, sounding resigned to his situation. However, little by little, you can then see the letting go in his posts. I remember thinking to myself, I'm just like him. If he ever gets better, after all this time, then I'll know it's possible. Low and behold, months later he posts he's finally on his way, and then you can see in later posts the slow progression to his recovery. When I read that, something lifted in my heart and I had hope again and I knew it was possible for me. Call it a placebo. Who cares! That was a turning point for me, and I think it was at that point that I "let go" and just trusted that things would improve.
Sorry for the long post, but slow recoveries are something near and dear to my heart and it's so important to believe they are possible.
I am commenting on this in the hopes that someone will put it in the "success stories" forum. I think it would be useful to those of us who are taking long to heal. |
| Back2-It |
Posted - 12/06/2011 : 17:15:50
JulesJ...
quote:
Interesting hearing about the booster groups.
Sarno sees only those from NY, but I believe other TMS docs will see you. Dr. Stracks was talking about a young guy he saw from AZ or someplace like that.
It seems to me that there are enough people dealing with this type of thing that a "Meet-up" group could be formed in many places and, using some type of structure, so it's not a "gripe-a-thon", carry on and discuss the mind-body stuff.
The only danger I see in this is that it could form a dependency and perpetuate the symptoms. Dunno... it's a double edged thing.
Maybe a good thing for new people or for those who have "relapsed"?
"Bridges Freeze Before Roads" |
| JulesJ |
Posted - 12/06/2011 : 10:55:38
Thanks for all the further input and wisdom from everyone on this thread, and for the new success stories.
guej - I too have had insomnia in the past and am getting it again recently, I'm sure you're right it's something to do with your subconscious. My father used to suffer from it terribly, then (he told me) one night he decided he'd turn it into a useful thing. So instead of resenting not sleeping, he decided he'd use the time awake in bed to think about happy times in his life, good things that had happened that day - genuinely using the space to reflect and I guess be thankful. He wasn't even trying to 'let go' of fighting it, but surprise surprise that's what happened, and if moments of sleeplessness popped up again he almost welcomed them.
Regarding use of the word cured, I understand what you're saying tennis tom. As I said at the top, I consider myself as having successfully got over TMS before, and in the years following I certainly had occasional back pain, and other gripes. They just didn't bother me at all and I didn't fear them and they went away shortly afterwards. Perhaps 'having integrated a process' is better than 'cured' - especially as I relapsed, but perhaps it's also an acceptable shorthand.
Interesting hearing about the booster groups. Sometimes I fantasize briefly about flying to NY and meeting Sarno, thinking it might be the final nudge I need, which I know is not helpful. (It doesn't last long!)
best
J. |
| Fox |
Posted - 12/05/2011 : 07:13:34
That REBT form is hard to find. It won't do you any good until you read and reread Ellis, but here is a link. http://hypnosisrebt.com/pdf_files/III-13.pdf |
| Fox |
Posted - 12/05/2011 : 07:06:42
One more thing. REBT stands for Rational Emotive Behavioral Therapy. Albert Ellis started in the 1950s with the Rational Emotive Therapy (RET) system. It always emphazied cognitive, emotive, and behavioral elements, so he changed the name later to reflect that. Ellis is the granddaddy of the cognitive behavior therapists. |
| Fox |
Posted - 12/05/2011 : 06:53:28
Oh - forgot to say - I also focus on the classic "Hope and Help for Your Nerves" by Claire Weekes (been discussed on this forum a lot). With these two books, plus a little Albert Ellis Rational Emotive Therapy thrown in (after you've read and understood his elegant philosophy, complete REBT Self-Help Forms when you run into a psychological snag), in my opinion, you've got all the psychological bases covered. |
| Fox |
Posted - 12/05/2011 : 06:41:37
Appreciate the warm greeting, TT! I do skim some of the posts every couple of days but don't comment as much...Regarding meditation, that is something that has relaxed me quite a bit - counting my breaths as I walk (I walk at 5am so it's quiet) and looking at my sometimes negative, obsessive thoughts as if I were a relaxed, disinterested, non-judging third party until they float out of the mental picture. Then, later in the day, if I get into an obsessive "panic", I try focusing on my breathing and the beauty of the here and now, and dad gummit, it really helps so much more than I would have thought. I really like "The Mindful Path Through Worry and Rumination: Letting Go of Anxious and Depressive Thoughts" by Sameet M. Kumar. That's the system I have been using to quiet my brain a bit. It seems to have some impact on the frequency of my sciatica, but the big benefit is on the conscious psychological aspect of my TMS. |
| tennis tom |
Posted - 12/04/2011 : 08:52:59
quote:
Originally posted by Fox
I'm one of the turtles. Took me well over a year to get to 90% free of sciatic pain. I am convinced the remaining 10% has to do with conditioning. However, I no longer am obsessed with ridding myself of that 10% of the time in pain or performing every single activity under the sun that I would like to perform like I did in the past (like running - I'm now used to brisk walking with a little meditation thrown in). If losing the 10% happens, it happens. If it doesn't, thank goodness for Sarno anyhow because he has improved my life dramatically.
 CONGRATULATIONS on your TMS success Fox! Thanks for coming back to post. |
| balto |
Posted - 12/04/2011 : 08:20:38
quote:
Originally posted by Fox
I'm one of the turtles. Took me well over a year to get to 90% free of sciatic pain. I am convinced the remaining 10% has to do with conditioning. However, I no longer am obsessed with ridding myself of that 10% of the time in pain or performing every single activity under the sun that I would like to perform like I did in the past (like running - I'm now used to brisk walking with a little meditation thrown in). If losing the 10% happens, it happens. If it doesn't, thank goodness for Sarno anyhow because he has improved my life dramatically.
Either conditioning or you still have a stressful life style.
People who content with life, accept their fate, do not have tms/anxiety.
“Whatever the tasks, do them slowly
with ease,
in mindfulness,
so not do any tasks with the goal
of getting them over with.
Resolve to each job in a relaxed way,
with all your attention.”
- Thich Nhat Hanh, Zen Master
We rushing through our tasks, we speeding on the highway trying to get here and there, we facing deadline after deadline.... We got piss off when the lady ahead of us in the checkout line start to look through her big purse for that 1 penny. We're good at multitasking, We eat dinner, helping the kids with homework, watching the TV, read the papers, and talk to the wife all at the same time. We may got things done but our body didn't like it, our body didn't like rushing. Rushing create tension, pressure within our peaceful mind. Our body constantly tensed up and eventually create pain and anxiety symptoms.
Slow down and be with the present. Commit more time with what's important in your life: your passion and your loveones. |
| Fox |
Posted - 12/02/2011 : 16:36:19
I'm one of the turtles. Took me well over a year to get to 90% free of sciatic pain. I am convinced the remaining 10% has to do with conditioning. However, I no longer am obsessed with ridding myself of that 10% of the time in pain or performing every single activity under the sun that I would like to perform like I did in the past (like running - I'm now used to brisk walking with a little meditation thrown in). If losing the 10% happens, it happens. If it doesn't, thank goodness for Sarno anyhow because he has improved my life dramatically. |
| Hillbilly |
Posted - 12/01/2011 : 06:29:34
Right on, Back-2-it! When you no longer give a hoot about your symptoms you are cured of the problem. You can carry on without worry, and without the representation of worry present in your physical body, the symptoms dissolve. This is certainly true in my case.
As for there not being a cure, TT, I agree that stress manifests itself in various ways, but without going into Fearville, the symptoms are temporary, beyond conscious control (unless your name is Alexis), and wholly normal, like the increased heart rate on a roller coaster. These symptoms we accept as being psychosomatic readily; back pain not so much. Chronicity is the issue for people here, and there is certainly a cure for that.
I hate quotations. Tell me what you know.
Ralph Waldo Emerson |
| Back2-It |
Posted - 11/30/2011 : 18:50:50
I reported on the words that were used by those at the "booster" meeting who overcame pain.
I tossed in what has helped me so far. Some at the session were interested in what I had read beyond Sarno and some weren't.
Everybody can define the process however they like, and get to a good result however they can. They can define elimination of symptoms however they like as well.
Call it a "cure"; call it "remission", who cares, so long as they understand what it is that's happening to their body.
I don't so much care about definitions as results.
"Bridges Freeze Before Roads" |
| Dave |
Posted - 11/30/2011 : 18:49:41
quote:
Originally posted by JulesJ
Feeling down in the dumps today about ongoing TMS and would appreciate any pep talks from anyone who took more than 12 months to recover after ascribing their symptoms to TMS
It was over a year before I had significant lasting reduction in symptoms.
quote:
In particular, I just cannot get rid of this sitting leg pain/tingling...
The symptoms you have the hardest time ignoring are typically the ones that are most persistent.
quote:
...I feel I didn't fully purge the TMS last time, so feel I should be aiming for near-100% this time.
I do not believe this is a constructive mindset.
quote:
However standing in one place for an hour or two (e.g. a pub, or even 10 mins on a train/tube) or this sitting brings it back.
Accept the importance of conditioning in TMS, and why it causes symptoms to appear at certain times or during certain activities.
I believe it is important to take a long-term view. Accept that you may have psychogenic symptoms from time to time for the rest of your life. This is part of being human. The goal is to fundamentally change the way you think about and react to them. While it is important to try to look into the repressed emotions that might be contributing to the symptoms, this is secondary to reconditioning your responses to them. The goal is not to eliminate the symptoms, but to neutralize them. If you are successful, then over time, they will fade on their own. |
| Ace1 |
Posted - 11/30/2011 : 11:07:58
Thanks Guej, your post is most helpful and complete. Dear TT, thanks for your input, I appreciate your post. I understand what your saying and it makes a lot of sense. I guess when I mean "cure", its kind of like when we were teenagers where you would tell everyone you were perfectly healthy, despite getting an occasional headache here and there. |
| tennis tom |
Posted - 11/30/2011 : 10:29:34
I would say anyone who says they are "cured of TMS" is displaying a profound misunderstanding of TMS theory. I am not addressing this to anyone on this thread so I don't want anyone to take this personally and get bent out of shape. TMS is part of the "human condition", as the Good Doctor has said. There are life situations that are out of our control and so overwhelming, especially if several happen to us bundled together at the same approximate time, they can create TMS/psychosomatic symptoms. To see what these "human condition" stress creating situations are, you need only look at the Rahe-Holmes list in my sig.
You may "cure" yourself of a psychogenic or affective TMS symptom but you can't predict what life may have in store for you around the corner or down the road. TMS in practice is a changing of the mindset. As one wins a success "curing" a TMS symptom, they will gain confidence in the theory, that the mind can create benign pain in the body as a distraction and protective device when facing "dis-ease" creating situations head-on.
Last night I felt a pain in my right hand. I am going through several events listed on the Rahe-Holmes list. I will go out in an hour and play tennis with this painful hand and the pain will probably disappear, as so many other niggling pains, twinges and sensations have disappeared in the past thanks to having TMS theory in my medicine cabinet. I know as long as I am breathing and have interactions with people and life, this won't be the last time I have a TMS symptom. To think one can guarantee they will be TMS free for life is a misunderstanding of the theory. Once again, I am not replying to anyone here, just pontificating on the word "cured".
|
| guej |
Posted - 11/30/2011 : 09:28:11
Jules, to your point about recovered people coming back to the forum...you'll notice I haven't posted my success story yet. I think, as you mentioned with your quick recovery, it's part uneasiness that by doing so we're somehow going to jinx ourselves. I'm not sure I think of myself as "cured" because I still have all the awful, anxiety-producing habits that got me into this pain mess in the first place, even though I'm not in pain anymore.
Which brings me to Ace1's question. Ironically, I changed the most while in the midst of pain. I finally let myself off the hook from being the perfect employee/perfect mother/perfect house etc. because I physically couldn't do it with all the pain. It was the first time in my life I took care of my own needs first. In that regard, I have to agree with Dr. Sarno that perhaps the distraction of pain takes us away from all the other worries in our life. Unfortunately, now that the pain is gone, I'm back to my usual high-strung, worrywart self. It's actually quite disappointing because I really didn't learn my lesson.
Actually, I do think I'm much better off than before because I'm 100% aware of my negative thinking patterns. Going the TMS route has certainly given me a lot of perspective on my personality. Let's just say I'm a work in progress. The really good news, though, is that I now make the connection between tightness in my neck or throbbing at an old pain sight, with the fact that I'm usually aggravated about something and not expressing it outwardly. I have also mastered (for the most part), the art of not getting worked up over some minor pangs of pain here and there. I just assume they will go away, and they do. In the past, I would have run to physical therapy for anything lasting more than a week. I'm now much more of a believer of "the body heals itself" if our worrying and obsessive minds don't get in the way.
As for pushing through the pain...that was a mixed bag. At first, I followed the Fred Amir approach in Rapid Recovery from Back and Neck pain. I gradually increased my activity and tracked it closely. Like I said, I had about a 50% improvement and I was thrilled beyond belief. Then it tapered off, I had a setback and it became a source of frustration. Again, only with the benefit of hindsight can I now say that it was re-interpretation of the pain that helped me. So in other words, when I had pain while running or standing for too long, I made peace with it. Before, I would get worked up, aggravated, etc. When you're in the middle of pain, it's hard to think rationally. I also stopped tracking what I did or trying to prove something to myself. I let myself off the hook if I couldn't do what I set out to do and stopped making recovery such a project. It's very hard to force "letting go". I knew it was what I had to do, but I couldn't make myself do it. I can't put my finger on when it clicked. It just sort of unwound itself when I stopped trying to hard.
As for "recovery", I considered myself recovered in that I no longer have non-stop pain in the same places every day. Those nerve pathways have quieted down. I still get foot pain or achilles pain every now and then when I run (from old "injuries", I'm told). I no longer believe injuries from years ago still act up. I think what happens is that we have nerve memories just like we have muscle memory. Certain actions or emotions flare those up, but if you don't pay them much attention, they fade and don't take hold. I do have chronic insomnia. It's a bad habit that my body developed when I couldn't sleep due to pain. Even with the pain gone, the insomnia persists. However, I think a lot of it has to do with my highly anxious personality, and when I finally learn to deal with that, something tells me the insomnia will resolve itself...I'm not going to worry too much about it or I'll have replaced pain obsession with insomnia obession.
Hope this helps. Most importantly, just maintain hope you can get better. It's interesting, but we shouldn't monitor everyone else so closely in order to get better. We should just believe it's possible, right? But in reality, we all want some kind of verification that someone as bad off as us was able to get better so therefore, we can better too. I followed "Skizzik"s posts on this forum for about a year. He had a very simliar experience to what I was going through....trying so hard, following the program to a tee, asking lots of questions, reaching out for help, etc, and finally, sounding resigned to his situation. However, little by little, you can then see the letting go in his posts. I remember thinking to myself, I'm just like him. If he ever gets better, after all this time, then I'll know it's possible. Low and behold, months later he posts he's finally on his way, and then you can see in later posts the slow progression to his recovery. When I read that, something lifted in my heart and I had hope again and I knew it was possible for me. Call it a placebo. Who cares! That was a turning point for me, and I think it was at that point that I "let go" and just trusted that things would improve.
Sorry for the long post, but slow recoveries are something near and dear to my heart and it's so important to believe they are possible. |
| Back2-It |
Posted - 11/30/2011 : 08:24:46
I attended a TMS "booster" group last night. It was composed of about 15 people who were in various stages of pain recovery, from those who had just heard about Sarno and the program to those who have been at pain reduction for a year or more.
Featured were three people who were "cured" of their pain using mind-body techniques. Those three all approached it in different ways and had different speeds of recovery.
The far more familiar story is a gradual improvement and not the miracle book cure. My own situation was that one year ago at this time I was crippled in mind and body. Now I consider myself about 90% "cured".
For me, I had to add layers of knowledge. First was Sarno because of my back MRI dx and the horrible reactions I got from docs and medical practitioners. Second was Dr. Claire Weekes, so I could get my anxiety under control and understand what it does to a body. Not wanting to "work" on the TMS thing anymore but try to live my life, I abstained from further reading for a good long while. . But recently I picked up Dr. Abraham Low's work. What is interesting about Dr. Low was that he was doing "meet-ups" with people with "nervous" conditions 60 years ago, with "Recovery, Inc." His main work was written in 1950. There is nothing new under the sun, it appears, but with each new popular proponent of Mind-Body comes additional tools. Weekes and Low do not go into spine problems, and with MRI's creating probably more fear than cures, and specialists each working their own narrow fields and determined to find a problem, Dr. Sarno's experience in spines and rehab has added critical dimension.
I just need and needed more and more re-enforcement, including a doctor who understood the entire Mind-Body thing. Dr. Stracks has been very helpful in that area.
The hare and the tortoise. Most of us are a hybrid.
"Bridges Freeze Before Roads" |
| JulesJ |
Posted - 11/29/2011 : 12:46:47
Thanks to all of you for your replies, but most especially to guej whose experiences so closely match mine so far, and who achieved the outcome I am set on.
I am going to email it to my poor suffering girlfriend who had to be therapist last night as the pain had flared up and I thrashed about for why; I had been trying to speak about it less so she was surprised, as she didn't know it had been knocking about more the last few weeks.
She's very different from me -- a feeler and an emoter, very in touch with what is upsetting her etc. I'd be amazed if she ever got TMS, she's as likely to get Martian Measles.
It's interesting that when I had my 'miracle' cure the first time around I would tell people about TMS but tell them I wasn't interested in their opinions, especially negative ones. Perhaps I was superstitious in retrospect that they'd jinx it.
To that end people who turn up on these boards now and then despite getting cured are doing those of us in the 'slog' a big favour. There must be a slight fear of being sucked back into it all (or does it provided a vaccination 'top up' I wonder?)
When I'm cured I'll definitely post it on success stories. I'll also try to pop in now and then to check for any subject lines similar to this one where I can help.
Good luck to all TMS sufferers, and best wishes those who've moved on!
J. |
| Ace1 |
Posted - 11/29/2011 : 08:53:29
Guej,
In your case did you have to change your life to one of peace or did you just go back to life without changing anything? When you had pain did you just keep bending and doing anything despite it being there, no matter how bad, or did you gradully increase your activity as the pain receded? Are you now also completely healthy, meaning no medical problems in addition to the pain being gone? Thank you in advance for your input. This would be most helpful to me and hopefully others. |
| Back2-It |
Posted - 11/28/2011 : 13:54:28
I'll reply as well.
I started with the TMS process a year ago this month.
My progress has been steady, but measured against
one year ago I am nearly born again. My anxiety and
pain levels were off the charts. I couldn't run or ride
a bike or even stand in one spot for too long. Now I can.
Won't go into detail but I had to sort out a number
of possibilities that could be causing pain.
Diving back into life and trying not to think about
the symptoms is proving the be the best medicine.
In fact, sometimes it seems a paradox and counter-productive
to think that a person is a special "TMS" case.
I've been reading Abraham Low and his emphasis is really
the same as "guej". Have the will to bear the discomfort, because
you really can do it, and you will eventually "retrain" your muscles that have been hijacked by your brain.
I have a stiffness left that is some days worse than others, but when I focus on my responsibilities and keep busy the stiffness seems less. (Duh)
Some of us are meant to be poster child cures and others are just turtles.
"Bridges Freeze Before Roads" |
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