| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Indigo |
Posted - 10/20/2011 : 22:55:07
Buy a tennis ball. Then stand by the wall and rub that ball (press hard) along your back, glutes or areas that hurt you.
If you found a painful spot, you found a trigger point. And source of your pain.
Trigger points are small knots of twisted muscle fibers, that occur from stress, trauma, poor posture, accidents, etc. They are full of metabolic waste and they cut off oxygen supply ( and nutrients) to the muscle, causing excruciating pain.
They also shorten the muscle causing tightness and soreness.
Active trigger points hurt when you press them but they also shoot pain to seemingly unrelated parts of the body. Trigger point in neck can even cause pain in lower back.
Latent trigger points only hurt when you press but do not send pain further in your body. Over time they can become active trigger points.
A network of trigger points create a phenomena known as myofascial pain.
Trigger points are not the same as pressure points. Trigger points are located deep in the muscle and therefore you need a strong pressure to locate them.
Pain from trigger points also constantly moves through the body. It can give you flu like symptoms and make you feel sick simply because they are full of toxins.
There are literally thousands of websites about trigger points, as well as charts that show how far they can send pain.
Travell and Simons dedicated their lives to mapping charts ( they also discovered this phenomenon) and now every massage therapist is fully aware of them.
Physicians are rarely aware of them and even if they are, they do not talk about them, even when they diagnose a person with "myofascial pain". ( causing endless unnecessary suffering).
It is not a mystery, it is not hopeless. It is simple a matter of rubbing these knots out. It is very painful but it's the only way.
Good massage therapists can do this ( as much as articles and books talk about self-help and self massage) if too much time has passed and person has too many trigger points, most likely, they need professional help. Either pressing them real hard to cut off oxygen supply to the knot, therefore "killing it" or rubbing them (TP)continuously.(they do tend to come back).
Cold laser apparently does miracles but people who have them are usually chiropractors and be careful not to get sucked in their 6 month contracts ( with "discounts) and "subluxations". They will tell you that your spine is in dire condition no matter why you go there. They are also rarely trained to accurately locate trigger points.
There are trigger point injections, acupuncture, ultrasound etc.
Claire Davies' book is the most famous ( he simplified Travell and Simons' work for common people).
Trigger points progressively get worse if not dealt with, they create satellite trigger points, they usually form around joints, they tend to pair up ( on both sides of the body).
Even people who suffer from arthritis ( or fybro) tend to have TP and deactivating them might give them relief.
If you suffer from these, the worst thing you can do is - nothing.
Stretching can sometimes help person get rid of them and sometimes they go away on their own ( everybody has them but in "normal" people, they come and go).
This might help you decide if you have TMS or something else.
Good luck to you all!
(feel free to contact me for support or help but do not get diagnosed online.
Beware of anyone that is selling you a program, or trying to profit from your pain. ( I would repeat this 100000 times).
Question everything, even your own beliefs, investigate, research till you find the right diagnosis. It's a numbers game;)
Good luck again and take care.
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| 14 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| tennis tom |
Posted - 10/22/2011 : 00:46:56
quote:
Originally posted by Indigo
..I was scammed by TMS "experts" who diagnosed me over the phone ( if your check clears, you have it, whatever you're looking for). Same with chiropractors, they'll tell you whatever it takes to keep you around.
Please keep your eyes and ears open:)
( yes I still stretch from time to time, it makes me feel and look gewd;)
Indigo, there is at least one other treatment with the same acronym, TMS, as Dr. Sarno's theory. There is something called Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation, which is completely different then what this forum is discussing. Is this the "scam" you are talking about perhaps?
There is NO physical treatment for Dr. Sarno's TMS, since it is of psychological origin, and emanates from the mind. The only treatment is reconditioning the mind and changing one's understanding and outlook on the cause of TMS, MINDBODY pain.
Dr. Sarno, disavowed physical treatments early on after publication of his first of four books on TMS/PSYCHOSOMATIC dis-ease. Any physical treatment for "trigger points", or by a chiropractor, are in conflict and contrary to Dr. Sarno's TMS approach.
I've never heard of a TMS practitioner who was a scammer and I've been around this board for quite a while. Could you please identify who this scammer was to clarify this issue?
==================================================
DR. SARNO'S 12 DAILY REMINDERS:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0dKBFwGR0g
TAKE THE HOLMES-RAHE STRESS TEST
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holmes_and_Rahe_stress_scale
Some of my favorite excerpts from _THE DIVIDED MIND_ :
http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2605
==================================================
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." Jiddu Krishnamurti
"Pain is inevitable; suffering is optional." Author Unknown
"Happy People Are Happy Putters." Frank Nobilo, Golf Analyst
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| Back2-It |
Posted - 10/21/2011 : 21:36:27
TT...
Massages from Marilyn probably did some good, but the overall effect on JFK's back from his special friendship with her probably created an overall negative.
Indigo...
I am surprised to hear of the TMS "experts" who scammed you. I have found those who are involved in the mind-body process quite generous with their time. Two I have interacted with personally with no check being sent are Dr. Schubiner and Dr. Stracks.
I'm glad you are doing well. Stay healthy!
"Bridges Freeze Before Roads" |
| Indigo |
Posted - 10/21/2011 : 20:49:30
Thank you for your responses and sorry you didn't find relief with TP therapy. I guess like pain, not all massage therapists are created equal..
One year into excruciating mysterious back pain I came across Sarno ( someone posted his name on youtube) and I was sold immediately.
Like you Hillbilly, I was a sensitive person, raised by 2 narcissists so I fit the profile.. long story short, 2 years into doing everything TMS I realized there was no relief.. out of despair I tried Art Brownstein's stretches and got about 40%-50% relief but that was it.. (4 months of hardcore stretching, tears and all..lol)
When I came across trigger points, it finally matched my symptoms.
I don't know if anyone posted similar symptoms here but apart from pain, I felt either feverish or had chills ( I'd be bundled up in July, I never knew what the weather was really like, my body had mind of its own.. I'd sweat like crazy and I'd feel nauseous from time to time to the point of dry heaving. I thought it was all just part of TMS but those symptoms were caused by all the toxins in my muscles.
Anyway, I went through quite a few massage therapists before I came across this guy who seemed to have 6 arms.. lol
He hated trigger points more than I did :P and he had some absolutely amazing techniques but I was on the verge of blacking out of pain quite a few times 0__o
He found clusters of them ( self-help is totally overrated (IMO) and didn't do much for me). My back was riddled with trigger points ( that I found only about 10% of). It was quite awkward at times, cause they were in impossible places but I manned up:D
Well after 2 months I started to feel relief and it just got better from there ( it was about 10 months ago) and that was it.. I was scammed by TMS "experts" who diagnosed me over the phone ( if your check clears, you have it, whatever you're looking for). Same with chiropractors, they'll tell you whatever it takes to keep you around.
Please keep your eyes and ears open:)
( yes I still stretch from time to time, it makes me feel and look gewd;)
Anyway, good luck to you all and I hope everybody finds permanent relief:))
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| wrldtrv |
Posted - 10/21/2011 : 20:02:52
Great, insightful replies, everyone! |
| tennis tom |
Posted - 10/21/2011 : 16:55:49
quote:
Originally posted by Back2-It
Trigger points may have worked for President Kennedy, as goes the claim, but I think it was his being drugged out that got him through his term as far as it went.
Massages from Marilyn probably didn't hurt either.  |
| oneorbit |
Posted - 10/21/2011 : 12:40:15
I would suggest not chasing down these triggerpoints. I did and it got me nowhere for a long time. Sure I had triggerpoints and I would massage them and it would feel better but then they comeback. And comeback... This also gets you focusing on the physical pain rather than the psychological pain.
I think those trying to recover from TMS should avoid thinking about triggerpoints or even treating them unless you just want temporary relief which might be necessary to get through the day.
When I get a pain in my shoulder it is usually cutting off blood flow to my arms and soon my arms are tense and I get carpal tunnel feeling symptoms and cold hands. But I know this tension is psychological and not something wrong with my arms or shoulders. I spent lots of money on a neuromuscular triggerpoint therapist and he was good. I probably spent about a $1,000 over the course of a few months. I felt good when I left and it the relief usually lasted only a few hours until I sat at my desk and it all came back. So triggerpoints although exist are most likely TMS and need to be treated as such and not with a tennis ball. Which will probably only prolong your recovery.
So yes you can massage to get relief but if they continue to come back you should immediately avoid focusing on them and start looking inside you and your thoughts and feelings.
Live in the now. And by now be happy with yourself right now. Stop promising yourself you will be happy when... of once I get this I will be happy... stop think material things will make you happy... or your wife will make you happy or your kids will make you happy.
YOU WILL MAKE YOURSELF HAPPY RIGHT NOW BY THINKING AND BELIEVING YOU ARE CONTENT WITH WHAT YOU HAVE.
If you live in the now and not in the next week or last week, you no longer have guilt or anxiety, instead you have you by yourself with one breath and then the next breath, there's no reason why your ugly past or your future will stand in the way of your health. Stress will vanish because you won't have anything to stress but breathing and eating. Being content with what and who you are also helps your eating habits. No longer are you cutting deals with yourself. Like this one last piece of chocolate will make me happy. Just 2 more beers and one more TV show and I'm fine. Seriously, you won't need anything once you are content. Trust me the new iphone won;'t make you happier or more better off. That car with more options looks great but it's not a key to happiness.
Any way being present seems to help rest your mind from all the desires that clever marketing throws at you. And if your mind is clear your brain and unconscious will communicate better and healing can take place.
Anyway, that's my epiphany I had today while my mind was clear.
Just Relax |
| Back2-It |
Posted - 10/21/2011 : 11:35:25
Hillbilly...
quote:
. I think trigger points are physically palpable manifestations of a psychological outlook on life: guarded, nervous, withholding, withdrawing, cautious, frustrated.
Most agree. I found the trigger point information early on and tried rolling the knots out of my back three times per day to no avail. I remember the torture of running the ball directly down my spine and thinking that death might be preferable. When I discovered Sarno again I dropped the ball (literally).
It has taken quite awhile to get the knots out of my back, and there is still one nasty one there that effects my entire mid torso physiology. The more I accept and relax and change the things I can change and change the way I think about other stressors, the better it is getting.
Also, the idea that these trigger points are lumping up my back and body tend to extend the idea that there is something physically wrong with me.
Trigger points may have worked for President Kennedy, as goes the claim, but I think it was his being drugged out that got him through his term as far as it went.
"Bridges Freeze Before Roads" |
| guej |
Posted - 10/21/2011 : 10:07:30
Same story here...I could feel the knots along the IT band in my leg and along my gluet muscles where I had constant stabbing pain for almost 2 years. I read the trigger point books, spent the $100 an hour for trigger point therapy, rolled around on a tennis ball on my living floor in agony as the "referred pain" shot around my body....and I continued to suffer.
Fast forward more than a year later, and I have almost zero pain, yet if I seek out those "trigger points", they are still technically there and if I press real hard on them, I'll have some discomfort, but otherwise I don't know they are there, which means...they were probably always there but not activited (ie., shooting non-stop pain signals). Trigger point massage therapy kept me focused on the supposed physical cause of my pain and on my body in general. Ignoring all this nonsense and going back to just living my life, with or without pain, started the unwinding of the chronic pain cycle. |
| Hillbilly |
Posted - 10/21/2011 : 08:54:30
Indigo,
I am very glad you posted this message, because I think it is central to understanding the process by which we heal, and more importantly, how we stay healthy. Davies' book, which I have, have read thoroughly, and even used to do self-massage in the past, was the first hint I had that my shoulder and neck agony was a stress problem and not something permanently physiological that I could solve with a lacrosse ball.
My own story is that I found the book online, ordered it, and opened it up to get the techniques for relief. I was buoyed by the anecdotal stories of patients in agony who were relieved of their pain. Davies' own story of how he got relief for his frozen shoulder was inspiring. But months after beginning the self-massage, I was still in agony. I sought out a practitioner, and spent hundreds and was still in utter agony. One night, I bounced out of bed dreading the day that lay ahead of me after another sleepless night, and read the "rest of the story," contained in the back of the book.
I had an epiphany, alarm bells sounded, the heavens opened up. My problem was just like his: I was born a sensitive person, my father was a crazy maniac who demanded perfection to save his public image, and I was shadowed by a sense of doom if I couldn't keep the treadmill running. His problems stemmed from his psychological makeup, as did mine, and the fact that he included this information in a book about a "physiological" issue just underscored for me the need to confront the things I feared and let go of controlling the consequences.
I think you might find that there are some here who have found a modicum of relief by doing trigger point massage. It is a palliative measure used fairly broadly now in therapeutic settings. But the vast majority of people on this board and on anxiety forums that I have visited in the past would say that it feels good to do it, but the relief is temporary or even exacerbates their pain.
Dr. Scott Brady's book goes into his own struggle with "trigger points." He believes they are contractures that become chronic due to constant upsets in the emotional realm. I agree. I think trigger points are physically palpable manifestations of a psychological outlook on life: guarded, nervous, withholding, withdrawing, cautious, frustrated. Why do I think this: because I don't have these contractures anymore anywhere on my body, but at one time I had them everywhere, most notably around my shoulder blades, hips, and ankles. And I didn't spend a second massaging them after reading Claire Davies' psychological profile.
So, my advice is to anyone who wishes to feel better to continue to rub or scrub or massage their trigger points until they bleed if necessary. But most likely you will not get relief until you face your fears, make necessary changes in your life to become more responsible and self-reliant, and stop thinking you have some permanent condition because of small knots in your muscles.
I hate quotations. Tell me what you know.
Ralph Waldo Emerson |
| tennis tom |
Posted - 10/21/2011 : 07:45:44
quote:
Originally posted by Indigo
Buy a tennis ball. Then stand by the wall and rub that ball (press hard) along your back, glutes or areas that hurt you.
...It is not a mystery, it is not hopeless. It is simple a matter of rubbing these knots out. It is very painful but it's the only way.
...Good massage therapists can do this...
...There are trigger point injections, acupuncture, ultrasound etc.
...Stretching can sometimes help person get rid of them...
...This might help you decide if you have TMS or something else.
...(feel free to contact me for support or help but do not get diagnosed online.
...Beware of anyone that is selling you a program, or trying to profit from your pain. ( I would repeat this 100000 times).
Hi Indigo,
I got excited when I saw the tennis ball reference, but then concluded this was spam. But you do mention TMS in there, so there was some reference to the topic of this forum. I've been Rolfed about 90 times, massaged endlessly and it has done nothing for my "arthritic" right hip. So, I'm contacting you here, what are you going to do for me?
Just curious Indigo, which of Dr. Sarno's books have you ready? |
| AnnieA |
Posted - 10/21/2011 : 07:42:21
The first thing I did when I developed my RSI was go to someone who was a pain specialist. He did trigger point massage. I have to say it didn't help me at all. In fact I believe it made it worse. It wasn't until after I stopped going, found info on Sarno and stopped worrying so much that things started getting better. I'm not totally over the RSI and I'm not saying that trigger point massage could never be helpful for anything, but it did not help me with RSI. |
| balto |
Posted - 10/21/2011 : 07:26:06
So if you have trigger points is that mean you have tms or you don't have tms? What is the connection between TP and tms? |
| Indigo |
Posted - 10/21/2011 : 06:15:44
@shari
How about you read before you post nonsense yourself?
I sad "This might help you decide if you have TMS or something else"
TMS is psychological, Trigger Points are physical lumps in people's muscles.
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| shari |
Posted - 10/21/2011 : 00:05:45
This trigger points nonsense is all about focusing on the body--the very thing Dr. Sarno recommends avoiding.
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