| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Wavy Soul |
Posted - 05/28/2011 : 20:07:43
I'm in so much pain that I keep giving in and taking pain meds.
The back-story is that I had cancer surgery in March, and before that I had an intense experience with the death of my very hostile sister, so even the cancer was perhaps a sort of TMS.
But THIS - it's what they call fibromyalgia. My whole body burns so badly in the afternoons that I can barely move. It seems to get triggered when a particular thing happens with my back, and as far as I've been able to make out, that "thing" (which I don't want to debate) is a real physical anomaly which I got as a teenager. The pain in the back starts these pain circuits and then everything in my body is hurting.
I've done a lot of work journalling and sessions with therapist-friends exploring what thoughts, emotions/beliefs might be channeling themselves through my pain circuits. There is plenty of fodder, and yet I honestly feel pretty accepting of all the many things going on in my life. It feels physical.
My mother may be on the brink of dying in the UK. And I just heard yesterday that my stepmother, about whom I have had mixed feelings, is in hospital with a brain tumor. I feel conflicted, because part of me thinks I "should" be there rather than at home (California). But this pain and exhaustion pre-dated this news.
Today I spent the afternoon on the couch unable to move again - it's been weeks like that, and the pain is getting worse. I exercise and see clients in the mornings, then in the afternoon I run out of steam and start to burn, burn, burn.
I just took a strong painkiller, and before that (oh shame!) I googled fibromyalgia for the billionth time (although I have done this much less in the last few years since I've been Sarno-ing).
Help! I feel kind of hopeless. I don't want to think it's physical, because fibro is considered incurable. It's MUCH worse and more devastating than just the local pain thing.
I'd appreciate any support.
Love is the answer, whatever the question |
| 20 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| tennis tom |
Posted - 06/07/2011 : 08:31:59
quote:
Originally posted by art
Are you trying to logically extrapolate that because some people claim to have Lyme and perhaps in reality don't, that the disease does not exist?
No
DR. SARNO'S 12 DAILY REMINDERS:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0dKBFwGR0g
TAKE THE HOLMES-RAHE STRESS TEST
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holmes_and_Rahe_stress_scale
Some of my favorite excerpts from _THE DIVIDED MIND_ :
http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2605
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"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." Jiddu Krishnamurti
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| art |
Posted - 06/07/2011 : 08:18:13
quote:
Originally posted by tennis tom
"I have seen many people with TMS whose pain was attributed to lyme disease because they had antibodies for the Lyme bacterium in their blood. One of many cases I encountered was a man I saw with severe TMS who did not accept that diagnosis and was later found to have antibodies for lyme disease. He sued the neurologists who had attended him originally for malpractice, claiming that they had failed to test for Lyme antibodies. His symptoms were blatantly TMS, but in the absence of medical acceptance of TMS the neurologists found it difficult to defend themselves."
- John E. Sarno M.D., The Mindbody Prescription: Healing the Body, Healing the Pain (Get the book.)
DR. SARNO'S 12 DAILY REMINDERS:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0dKBFwGR0g
TAKE THE HOLMES-RAHE STRESS TEST
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holmes_and_Rahe_stress_scale
Some of my favorite excerpts from _THE DIVIDED MIND_ :
http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2605
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"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." Jiddu Krishnamurti
Are you trying to logically extrapolate that because some people claim to have Lyme and perhaps in reality don't, that the disease does not exist? People imagine they have all sorts of things that they don't have, but this does not lead one to say they're not illnesses. Some people walk around convinced they have a brain tumor and don't. Shall we throw brain cancer out of the medical encyclopedia?
I doubt very much that Sarno disputes the reality of Lyme itself any more than he would deny that some people get actual over-use syndromes. If he does, then I'd like to see the citation. I still won't think he's right, but it will be of interest to me
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| tennis tom |
Posted - 06/05/2011 : 15:54:18
Wavy, so what do you think about talking with Clark Grove? He's the only TMS practitioner in Marin.
http://tmswiki.org/page/Survey+Response%3A+Clark+Grove,+Ph.D.
http://www.therapynetwork.net/therapists/grove_clark.php
DR. SARNO'S 12 DAILY REMINDERS:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0dKBFwGR0g
TAKE THE HOLMES-RAHE STRESS TEST
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holmes_and_Rahe_stress_scale
Some of my favorite excerpts from _THE DIVIDED MIND_ :
http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2605
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"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." Jiddu Krishnamurti
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| tennis tom |
Posted - 06/05/2011 : 09:52:38
"I have seen many people with TMS whose pain was attributed to lyme disease because they had antibodies for the Lyme bacterium in their blood. One of many cases I encountered was a man I saw with severe TMS who did not accept that diagnosis and was later found to have antibodies for lyme disease. He sued the neurologists who had attended him originally for malpractice, claiming that they had failed to test for Lyme antibodies. His symptoms were blatantly TMS, but in the absence of medical acceptance of TMS the neurologists found it difficult to defend themselves."
- John E. Sarno M.D., The Mindbody Prescription: Healing the Body, Healing the Pain (Get the book.)
DR. SARNO'S 12 DAILY REMINDERS:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0dKBFwGR0g
TAKE THE HOLMES-RAHE STRESS TEST
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holmes_and_Rahe_stress_scale
Some of my favorite excerpts from _THE DIVIDED MIND_ :
http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2605
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"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." Jiddu Krishnamurti
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| art |
Posted - 06/05/2011 : 05:15:48
quote:
Originally posted by susan828
I don't know how anyone can say that Lyme is TMS. I have seen loads of people spot a tick on themselves, get the bullseye rash and develop Lyme. Lyme is measured by a titer test, just like syphilis and other diseases. Why some people get bitten by a tick and get no consequence, who knows but to attribute everything to TMS or say that that person who was bitten was TMS prone because of their personality seems crazy.
I agree Susan. It does seem crazy. I've seen my share of animals get sick as well. One died. Was she in need of distraction from her rage?
The only possible (rational) discussion concerns symptoms that continue long after treatment. Even there I'm quite certain it's entirely real. It can be a quite devastating illness if it doesn't respond to meds, or more commonly it's left untreated
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| Wavy Soul |
Posted - 06/04/2011 : 18:08:14
OH MY!
A whole discussion of my experience has been going on while I erroneously crashed out on the couch -- that is, between working with my therapy clients on their deep unconscious feelings and beliefs (as I have been doing for more than 30 years, thanks Art for mentioning).
I appreciate all the viewpoints. I'm not sure exactly where I "stand" - I certainly know my extreme physical difficulty is not "purely" physical. And I'm not certain that it's completely non-physical. Or, as Art said, I'm not sure that the original psychosomatic origins haven't gotten some pretty real and well-organized physical processes going, that require physical attention.
But I'm very leery of the medical approach - even the alternate variety. Re the Lyme's, I won't even let my doc do a test, because I'm so tired of all the woo woo fashions. I went to docs, straight and weird, for 30 years with my symptoms. In the last 7 years or so I have barely gone to docs - in fact even getting my cancer diagnosed was a stroke of cosmic luck...
and haven't really used the words fibromyalgis and co. much, except occasionally on this board... but since my surgery the level of pain and exhaustion have been debilitating, and I have been open to whatever might help. Sometimes taking the TMS approach has felt a bit like a British "stiff upper lip" (and I am a Brit, albeit American for 40 years!). However, dipping my toes back into the world of focusing on illness is HORRENDOUS.
The bottom line, for me is that there isn't one. I can relate to most of what has been said above. I've had long periods when I was quite sure that my symptoms and everyone else's were "just TMS" and would go to some lengths to convince myself - and them - of this. I've had other times when I have seen this as a new defense mechanism, a sort of resistance to vulnerability or the possibility of having some physical thing that we can't control... And the same resistance can cause one to assert it's NOT TMS, i.e. I can control it with treatment, etc.
Anyway, thanks everyone, and keep on chiming in. I crawled off a painful couch afternoon and was quite tickled to read all this.
Love is the answer, whatever the question |
| tennis tom |
Posted - 06/01/2011 : 22:56:25
quote:
Originally posted by susan828
I don't know how anyone can say that Lyme is TMS. I have seen loads of people spot a tick on themselves, get the bullseye rash and develop Lyme. Lyme is measured by a titer test, just like syphilis and other diseases. Why some people get bitten by a tick and get no consequence, who knows but to attribute everything to TMS or say that that person who was bitten was TMS prone because of their personality seems crazy.
For a discussion of Lyme's and TMS read this : http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3639
DR. SARNO'S 12 DAILY REMINDERS:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0dKBFwGR0g
TAKE THE HOLMES-RAHE STRESS TEST
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holmes_and_Rahe_stress_scale
Some of my favorite excerpts from _THE DIVIDED MIND_ :
http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2605
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"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." Jiddu Krishnamurti
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| SylviaB |
Posted - 06/01/2011 : 15:01:01
Hello Weary soul,
First of all hang in there ,I know what you are going through is tough but there is a light at the end of the tunnel.
Tennis tom mentioned DR Grove , clark Grove who is a Tms therapist I am seeing in Marin ( once a week he is in Marin and the rest of the time in Sf)
He does have a sliding scale too so if your assurance does not cover him( mine is kaiser and does not ) then you can talk to him
He is very good and i ve been seeing him for about 2 months now and like his approach alot. It is an on going process but he is great help. So hang in there! Fibromyalgia is tms and if you google Dr Schubiner website , some testimonials on fibro are very good.You can heal. Please feel free to email me personally if you need more info.I live in Marin
Sylvia
buongiorno09@gmail.com
I m dealing with a relapse of tms( urethra symptoms ) and I m doing better these last few days but I can see how fear and worry makes it worse so as Darko says, try not to fear and watch your thoughts which create negative feelings which creates TMS. I know it is not easy but you can do it!!!
Also a good and cheap book to read and very useful ( I love it because it is not about tms but nervous illness which is the same thing and written in the 70s but this auther gets it and explains to you the cycle of fear-adrenaline-fear and perpetuation of symptoms)
I would advice you to get it ,even a used copy on amazon for 3.99 worth it!
Help and hope for your nerves by Dr Weekes.I read it at lunch and underline sentences and re read them when i panic and it helps so much.You will see that you are not alone .
Hang in there and feel free to contact me if you need more info on Dr Grove, He is great !
Sylvia |
| susan828 |
Posted - 06/01/2011 : 12:48:11
I don't know how anyone can say that Lyme is TMS. I have seen loads of people spot a tick on themselves, get the bullseye rash and develop Lyme. Lyme is measured by a titer test, just like syphilis and other diseases. Why some people get bitten by a tick and get no consequence, who knows but to attribute everything to TMS or say that that person who was bitten was TMS prone because of their personality seems crazy. |
| tennis tom |
Posted - 05/31/2011 : 17:04:23
Why do our parents know how to push our buttons?
Because they installed them.
DR. SARNO'S 12 DAILY REMINDERS:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0dKBFwGR0g
TAKE THE HOLMES-RAHE STRESS TEST
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holmes_and_Rahe_stress_scale
Some of my favorite excerpts from _THE DIVIDED MIND_ :
http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2605
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"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." Jiddu Krishnamurti
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| caligirl |
Posted - 05/31/2011 : 15:57:06
Hi Wavy,
I suffered a bout of melanoma in 2001 and I am another sufferer of so-called "fibro". I also was diagnosed with Lyme's, Chronic Fatigue, Mercury & Phalate poisining, as well as bing told that my orthodontist moved my teeth incorrectly and threw my whole structural system off track. Yes...I saw every voodoo doctor out there. I am very persistent and wanted to get to the bottom of things. Every time I went to see a doctor, I would feel good for about 6 months and then start feeling bad again. I realized this was the placebo effect Sarno was talking about.
The only way I started feeling any relief was when I started focusing on my anger/fear and practicing affirmations. I too have a family that makes me feel guilty about everything. But in essence, I think I make myself feel guilty because I allow them to make me feel this way. I know I need to work on my relationships and anxiety in general to get further relief. I would love to hear more from "Joy I Am" on her success.
I am not all the way there yet, but leaps and bounds from where I was over a year ago. I now am involved in an intense exercise program and no longer crawl in bed at 5pm.
There is hope out there and I know that you can overcome it...Just Believe. |
| Erata |
Posted - 05/31/2011 : 10:14:28
Hi Wavy,
Yeah, I hear you about the hopelessness & frustration Fibromyalgia brings along with all-encompassing burning, rather than localized pain. I relate to much of what you write, and how you're dealing with so much trauma & upheaval,so forgive me if I project. (I sometimes think of these extremely debilitating symptoms as battle fatigue and scars from wars in which I didn't choose to fight, and that my body finally said "Enough! I can't carry anymore weight!") I now try to google Fibromyalgia only to confirm emotional connections, such as increasingly accepted connections to stress, childhood abuse and PTSD.
I'm sorry about your sister. I also experienced a very hostile sibling, a younger brother, who wouldn't speak to me for the better part of 20 years (after awhile, we became mutually hostile). We've reconciled in the past year and a half and I've come to understand how deeply complex sibling relationships are and also how instrumental our mother was in orchestrating and fueling our alienation & estrangement, though she claimed otherwise.
Hang in and try not to give in to feeling hopeless and incurable-if it was a true disease, why would it only present in the afternoon, but not the morning? I think Joy's recommendations are great & I know I need find more distance from that-which-is-so-negative in life.
Erata
P.S. I've been diagnosed with both Lyme Disease & Fibromyalgia. That Lyme video is pretty frightening so I didn't watch all of it. I have mixed feelings about Lyme. In the late 1980's, when I began uncovering some deeply repressed memories of childhood abuse, I developed double vision, though didn't, at that time, tie it to the memories. This was years prior to knowing about Sarno, but I had read about Lyme & its connection to double vision. All the tests ruled out disease pathology, but, less than 5 days after I started a course of anti-biotics for a tooth infection, my vision cleared. Another doctor then believed I had Lyme, though I never tested positive for the antigen, and I took Doxycyline for almost a year. When all my symptoms didn't clear, the same doctor diagnosed Fibromyalgia.
Where I live, Lyme is considered endemic and some doctors now prescribe a course of antibiotics if one is just bitten by a tick, never mind showing symptoms. The reason I think of Lyme as TMS is because ticks are so prevalent, as are ticks bites, which means that many people must be exposed to the antigen, but how many develop full-blown Lyme Disease?
But if Lyme is TMS, then why do dogs (cats don't seem to get it) develop symptoms and get better after treatment? My daughter works for a vet and they are proponents & pro-active Lyme in treatment in that, if a dog is lethargic or showing other symptoms, their blood isn't tested for the antigen, but is tested and treated based on antibody production. One curious aspect is that owners will call to say their dog is limping on one leg, but by the time they come to the vet, that leg is fine and the dog is limping on the other leg. It's called "Shifting Leg Lameness" and Lyme is usually diagnosed. Horses are also diagnosed & treated, but it's considered more a 'fashionable' disease. What's interesting to me is that dogs and horses are animals highly tuned in and sensitive to their human companions.........
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| Joy_I_Am |
Posted - 05/31/2011 : 04:34:11
Dear Wavy Soul,
I'm sorry to hear you feel so rotten. I'm not at all surprised you do, because you have so many and varied things going on in your life and head - they would make anyone feel down, but because we're TMSers, it's not just our heads that get sad, our bodies do too - as you well know, of course! - but I repeat it, if only for my own benefit
Please don't worry about the painkillers! I just went on a stressful trip, and felt pain, and thought 'Sod it, I'm too busy to investigate my psyche right now, I'm just going to pop that pill and forget about it till later. It will be okay, I am managing this.' That, in itself, helped put me in the right mindset to start feeling better.
I was 'diagnosed' with fibromyalgia a few years ago. This was before I knew about Dr Sarno. I was delighted at first, because it seemed to be the answer to what had been troubling me, I could 'put a name to it'; all the symptoms seemed to fit! Well, of course they did! I've come to realise that the symptoms of fibro are 'everything'! It's 'everythingitis'...
I no longer have fibromyalgia. So it IS curable (if I even had it in the first place!) I think fibro IS TMS, simple as.
So. You're feeling grotty with all these troublesome things and thoughts going on. I suggest flooding yourself with good feelings by whatever means you know - funny films, fun books or magazines, pampering yourself, talking to a 'feel good' friend, getting into nature... you will know what suits you best. At the moment you're getting all rage and no soothe.
Be super-good to yourself, it sounds like you both need and deserve it right now!
Warmest wishes, Joy |
| tennis tom |
Posted - 05/30/2011 : 15:14:44
Dave x2
DR. SARNO'S 12 DAILY REMINDERS:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0dKBFwGR0g
TAKE THE HOLMES-RAHE STRESS TEST
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holmes_and_Rahe_stress_scale
Some of my favorite excerpts from _THE DIVIDED MIND_ :
http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2605
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"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." Jiddu Krishnamurti
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| art |
Posted - 05/30/2011 : 13:34:51
It's my opinion that Wavy's more aware than most of us about the gremlins within. She's a therapist and writes with enviable clarity and insight concerning her difficult family and life situation. I've never seen a person fight harder, or with more courage and honesty.
I just think you're doing the woman a disservice Dave. It's easy for you to say something's not a "real" disease. But how do you really know that? When you get right down to it you're just taking someone's word for it. I've great respect for Sarno and his ideas, but he's certainly wrong about some things, including his contention that opiate withdrawal syndrome is psychosomatic (at least I've read that he says so...admittedly second-hand)...
It's my opinion that even if such difficult illnesses as CFS and Fibro are strictly speaking psychosomatic, reversing them is not simply a matter of the right mind set as it is in say, back issues. I suffered terribly from a similar illness for years, and I can tell you from my own experience that while one can arguably think one's way into a disease, you cannot simply think your way out. Real physiologic changes have taken place, real damage has been done.
I'm sorry, but the world is just not as simple as you'd seemingly like to think... |
| Dave |
Posted - 05/30/2011 : 10:38:52
quote:
Originally posted by Wavy Soul
...yet I honestly feel pretty accepting of all the many things going on in my life. It feels physical.
This is exactly what TMS is all about. By "accepting" all of these very stressful events going on in your life, perhaps you are not really tapping into the deep rooted feelings about it all. Those feelings are ugly, forbidden, shameful, guilt-provoking. You need to try to dig deeper and not just deal with the obvious stress you feel on a conscious level. It is the things you can't feel that are buried and lead to symptoms. It is the things you don't want to admit you feel because they are selfish and just plain wrong.
I'm afraid you are still stuck in the physical realm, giving credence to the "fibromyalgia" diagnosis, which is not a real disease. You may benefit from psychoanalysis to explore more deeply rooted feelings about the very significant events you are going through right now. It is very possible you are not fully appreciating their deep emotional impact. The pain is doing its job by keeping you focused on it, so that you can be "pretty accepting" of these things, rather than face how the "child inside" really feels about them. |
| tennis tom |
Posted - 05/30/2011 : 09:03:19
Here's a thread about lymes and TMS:
http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3639
DR. SARNO'S 12 DAILY REMINDERS:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0dKBFwGR0g
TAKE THE HOLMES-RAHE STRESS TEST
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holmes_and_Rahe_stress_scale
Some of my favorite excerpts from _THE DIVIDED MIND_ :
http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2605
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"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." Jiddu Krishnamurti
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| Wavy Soul |
Posted - 05/29/2011 : 12:50:08
thanks to all - I'm exploring everything you said...
Love is the answer, whatever the question |
| art |
Posted - 05/29/2011 : 10:09:29
For those who think Lyme Disease is not an actual illness, I suggest watching the documentary "Under Our Skin"
This is a snippet..
.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sxWgS0XLVqw |
| tennis tom |
Posted - 05/29/2011 : 07:52:41
Hi Kathryn,
Sorry to hear you are in crisis mode. I think you should look into seeing Dr. Clark Grove, he has an office on Sir Francis Drake. I haven't seen him professionally but have spoken to him about TMS by phone on several occasions . If I were in crisis, I would see him, there is no other TMS practitioner in Marin that I know of. I provided a couple of links to him below. I believe you are misinformed on fibro, I don't believe that it's incurable. If it's TMS then it's just another mis-diagnosis like Lyme's or chronic fatigue. I believe cancer can also be a TMS symptom and can be reversed but the complications and effects of surgery aren't always reversible. Give Clark Grove a try. Googleing fibro is counterproductive to instilling confidence in TMS.
http://tmswiki.org/page/Survey+Response%3A+Clark+Grove,+Ph.D.
http://www.therapynetwork.net/therapists/grove_clark.php
DR. SARNO'S 12 DAILY REMINDERS:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0dKBFwGR0g
TAKE THE HOLMES-RAHE STRESS TEST
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holmes_and_Rahe_stress_scale
Some of my favorite excerpts from _THE DIVIDED MIND_ :
http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2605
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"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." Jiddu Krishnamurti
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