| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| teachme |
Posted - 03/06/2011 : 09:15:19
Recently I had a major epiphany. For the past 6 years I've had terrible back pain. I mean excruciating pain and I'm only at the tender age of 23. The pain started when I was 17. How could this be? I'm young, I workout, I eat properly. Fast forward 6 years later after physical therapy, chiropractors, back doctors you name it. I finally came across Sarno's book, "Healing Back Pain". While reading the book, I felt almost instant relief. I could literally feel the tension melting away, my muscles relaxing, and the pain evaporating. It was incredible.
A couple months later I noticed I still had lingering back pain but thought nothing of it. From Sarno's book I knew it could take a while for the unconscious to accept the concept of TMS. More months went by, I noticed the pain was still lingering and sometimes even becoming more intense. As my frustration grew I decided to go back to the drawing board to find a solution. Why would my pain not relinquish itself?
I re-read Sarno's book multiple times, watched all Youtube videos related to TMS, read success stories, researched TMS forums, and even went to a local TMS doctor. At the end of the day I would consistently conclude the same answer. Repressed emotions were causing fear and anger which was perpetuating my pain.
This is all good and plenty except for the fact that I have re-iterated the TMS concept a million times!!! I have accepted that rage and anger have somehow initiated these symptoms. I have talked to my unconscious mind, ignored my unconscious mind, and exhausted my conscious mind by reminiscing the past. While learning about TMS we consistently read about our repressed emotions, so I set out trying to find an event or events in my life that I was repressing. Again, no relief. Time went on and everyday I kept looking for an answer, researching the internet throughout all hours of the day. My symptoms grew and soon my scalp became tense, my hair began to shed, and anxiety was at all time high.
One morning I woke up and read an article that focused on fear. It hit me like a lightening bolt. All this time I kept trying to pound the concept of TMS into my mind, kept focusing on the actual concept, the repressed emotions, the anger, the rage. The thing is, our mind already has this information. We understand it, this is why after reading Sarno's book most of us feel at least some relief or at least an unfamiliar sensation. It is my belief that this is due to a reduction in FEAR. As soon as you read Sarno's book, your fear of structural abnormalities and life long pain has been significantly reduced. It is the fear that fuels TMS and supports it's perpetuation. Sure anger, rage, repressed emotions and all of these issues could have been the initial cause but without fear TMS has no gasoline left in it's tank.
Whether or not you realize it, if you still have lingering pain it is because somewhere in your mind you also have lingering fear. This fear is then causing doubt and destroying your belief in TMS. I have found that it is almost impossible to figure out what events and emotions are causing your pain and the good news is, it's not necessary. If you really ask yourself do I have fear I think you will find the answer to be true. We all fear something in our lives and TMS will utilize this fear to ignite itself. Once it ignites, it becomes a viscous cycle. Not only do your old fears exist but now you have new fears generated simply due to the symptoms of TMS.
The new focus should be on your fear and acknowledging it. Understand, that your fear is the remaining factor that is causing doubt in your mind. Doubt of the pain being psychosomatic. This fear and doubt may be more apparent to others. For me personally, I completley and wholeheartedly believed in TMS. I couldn't understand if my belief system was so strong why was my pain just as resilient. It because the fear creates doubt whether it's a large or small amount is irrelevant. Size doesn't matter. If there is even a speck, TMS is able to continue. Once I shifted all my focus to fear I worked on telling myself that there is no reason to be afraid. I would explain that fear is causing doubt and once I removed my fear my body would return back to normal. This new simple thought process completley eliminated my pain.
I truly hope this helps someone out there who has still been unable to eliminate their symptoms. I have been searching for the final answer for a year after learning about TMS. I truly think that fear should be made a much larger focus of the concept. There is no need for psychotherapy, becoming aware of repressed emotions, and different mental exercises. Simply, understanding that fear is running this machine will eliminate the pain and return your body to a completley normal and healthy state.
Thanks,
Jordan |
| 20 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Dave |
Posted - 01/06/2012 : 14:31:03
quote:
Originally posted by shawnsmith
Amen to that Hillbilly. I don't believe a syllable of it either. Fortunately, it is not necessary to believe it in order to recover.
Recovery from TMS is a highly personal journey. Getting caught up in semantics and trying to understand the scientific details of TMS, or question Dr. Sarno's theory, or come up with your own alternate theories, are not helpful and may actually be detrimental to recovery.
Ignore the symptoms. Banish the fear. Resume normal physical activity. Address your emotional health. How you get there is up to you. The most important thing is to truly accept that the symptoms are benign and to stop focusing on them. The science of TMS is not important. I believe humans do not have the capacity to understand the true physiological and psychological details. Dr. Sarno's explanation has worked for thousands of patients. If you find another approach that works, good for you. |
| shawnsmith |
Posted - 01/04/2012 : 11:10:56
quote:
Originally posted by Hillbilly
Teachme and Art,
I don't believe a syllable of distraction theory, unconscious in a blind rage, nor in seeking Freudian psychotherapy when all else fails.
Amen to that Hillbilly. I don't believe a syllable of it either. Fortunately, it is not necessary to believe it in order to recover. |
| wrldtrv |
Posted - 01/03/2012 : 19:34:41
"I experience panic with my pain symptoms."
I can guarantee, Becb, that this is exactly what will keep it around! It is so very hard to believe that symptoms that feel so real, and even seem to react to what we do or don't do, may actually not be harmful at all; that they could even be the product of our own aroused nervous systems.
A quick example: I had a chronic arm pain and stiffness for almost a year. Thanks to an enlightened physical therapist who told me there was probably nothing physically wrong with the arm and pointed me to the brain's input, I am almost 100% better. But get this! Three days ago, I had a full-blown relapse and when I got into bed that night I expected it to continue. But 8 hours later, the pain and stiffness were absolutely gone! I would not have believe that were possible if I hadn't experience it first hand.
The point is, and what the physical therapist was talking about (also pointed me to some great online videos on the subject) is this: First, the old idea of chronic inflammation is absolutely wrong. All injuries heal and if they don't it is not because of inflammation, but because of the nervous system. Since all pain comes from the brain and not the "injured" body part, whether pain is experienced or not is up to the brain's perception of the threat. When the sensory neuron travels from the body part to spinal cord and finally to brain, the brain makes a quick assessment. Danger? Overreaction? The brain responds accordingly. If danger, the sensation of pain. But there does not actually have to be tissue damage to have pain. Or there can be horrific tissue damage without pain.
There is much more to the story, but those are the basics, the basics that describe so well how I was able to go to sleep with an "injured" painful arm and wake up cured. Also, I would not be worried if the pain started again at some point as now I know that it is not my arm, but my nervous system. It might take the pain to come and go a few times to change the programming. Meanwhile, I am trying to apply the same idea to other symptoms that illogically come and go on a daily basis, eg pf, neuroma... |
| BecB |
Posted - 12/30/2011 : 15:36:15
I could not agree more about fear causing symptoms and preventing them from going away. I experience panic with my pain symptoms. In addition, I am afraid of the pain staying, I admit it. I know this is hindering my healing. Times when I learn to just ride out the pain and act normally without talking about it or focusing on it I feel better. I feel like I am in a war with this fear. I have so much responisbility as well, with small children, and this adds to the fear at times. It is just so much work! I think I am just having a bad day. Also taking anxiety medicine, like klonopin, helps my pain very much. I don't want to be taking this medicine all the time however because I don't think I will really heal that way. This tells me thought that when fear decreases pain subsides as well |
| bryan3000 |
Posted - 12/30/2011 : 11:53:37
This has been a fascinating thread and I've enjoyed reading through it. I wish the debate wouldn't get so heated but it's subject material that's easy to feel passionate about.
A few thoughts on the matter...
Alexis,
I tend to agree with most of what you write. If I understand you properly, it seems that you and I believe these pain and anxiety syndromes are more a result of multiple factors than purely hinged on fear alone. (Though, I agree that fear is a primary component and possibly the most important.)
I will disagree with you slightly regarding the significance of Claire Weekes. While it's true she's an MD, in my opinion she's got more psychological insight and background than 90% of those calling themselves psychologists these days. If you're read her work... (and I've read everything she's written multiple times) you realize that she's purely treating using psychology. She's a pioneer and the notion that her work isn't "peer reviewed in journals" is a non-issue. We live in a day and age where modern medicine is totally dumbfounded by anxiety and pain syndromes. How many successful treatment stories have you heard from patients of modern, mainstream medicine? For me, I know they succeeded in making my condition much worse, and extended it using toxic medications. So, the fact that these people peer-review anything means nothing to me. Frankly, modern medicine can't find its arse with both hands when it comes to treating mindbody disorders. Our modern doctors and therapists would do well to learn from a pioneer like Weekes.
I went to my GP a while back and we were discussing my anxiety and she told me (literal quote) "you know, it's been almost a year you've had this... it's never going to go away." She then wrote me a script for Prozac which I promptly pitched.
I'd love for Dr. Weekes to get a hold of these modern-day quacks. (Rest her soul.)
All that said, I appreciate your insights and your efforts are doing us all a service.
Hillbilly,
Dr. Weekes regularly speaks about "memory" causing setback, or the notion of feeling totally fine... and out of the blue having panic.
"Memory is such an old fox"..... "memory has stirred the embers of our minds"... etc.
Ever think that what she's really talking about there is subconscious activity? She essentially says that setback is part of recovery, and that it is usually fueled by things beyond our line of sight. That sure sounds like subconscious activity, to me.
Now, her recommendation is still the same. Accept it, deal with it and move on. But, even Dr. Weekes doesn't discount the notion that non-conscious activity plays a role. So, I wonder why it is that you feel so opposed to the notion?
I've brought up the topic in a past thread, but there are scores of examples of subconscious activity we can point to. Dreams, smells, songs, etc. My favorite is the little errands your mind can run for you below the surface. (i.e. stopping thinking about something you're trying to remember, and then your mind forces that thing to the surface later on without your help.)
This isn't to say that fear isn't the primary piece holding this puzzle in place, but to me... there does seem to be enough evidence to support a multi-faceted approach to curing ourselves of these ills.
By the way, I'm primarily an anxiety sufferer. I have pains, headaches etc... but mostly high anxiety. I've been working almost solely in the behavioral realm for coming up on a couple years now. I shunned any sort of emotional or psychological notions for a long time. I ONLY used the work of people like Weekes for my treatment. I went to a CBT therapist and read all I could. I certainly made progress. I'm much better today. But, I'm still not over the anxiety/panic. I don't believe I fear it nearly as much, but the fear does still remain. I'm now looking into opening my mind to the idea of dealing with some past and current emotional stressors, as well as the notion that much of this could be related to compiled stress and emotions I've chosen not to deal with head-on. Time will tell if this is the final key to recovery for me. But, I do believe for me at least... purely focusing on the fear alone is sort of like mopping the floor over and over instead of trying to ALSO find the source of the leak.
In any case, I love reading your posts. I think you're dead-on for the most part and I look forward to reading more. I wish I was somewhere I could work with you and your group.
On that note, I'd love to hear more from you, Balto and the others of like mind on what the removal of fear LOOKS like. I know it's different for all people, but it would be great to hear examples of how you and others lost the fear. I'm back to engaging in regular activities and fear doesn't stop me anymore, or not much. But, it's still there. Have you posted your "story" anywhere where we could see how you did it?
Anyway, great reading all of this stuff. There are some highly intelligent people on this board. What a blessing for the average Joe like me. :)
Thanks!
_____________________________
-1/2010 - Developed chronic sinus problems. ENTs/Docs can't find anything
-5/29/2010 - Doc gives cocktail of allergy meds which induces first ever panic attack/anxiety.
-7/16/2010 - Anxiety stays/worsens - put on Xanax
2/1/2011 - Began Xanax taper - Withdrawal starts - full body chaos
-6/11/2011 - Last dose of Xanax. Physical/emotional chaos continues for several months.
-Now: Taking it day by day, looking for real answers and ways to heal myself without medical poison. |
| wrldtrv |
Posted - 12/26/2011 : 19:14:07
"I believe the same way a structural abnormality or wound alerts our brains that something is wrong, our body produces the same pain to alert ourselves of emotional issues." (quote from Teachme)
Yes, this is an old post from last Spring, but it rings so very true to me now. I have been wondering why I have been plagued by one crazy symptom after another for the past year and this provides a good explanation for it. Of course, Teachme's main point was that FEAR, not rage or other repressed emotions, is really what keeps TMS alive. Several of us have come to that same conclusion and I have never been more sure of it than now.
Just an example: Out of the blue, a slight twinge from something I had a few months ago. So slight, I probably would not even have noticed had I not already been sensitized to it. In a fraction of a second it was gone, but I felt a stab of fear that went through my whole body at that instant, which stayed with me long after the sensation was gone. Often, all I have to do is think about a body part to bring on symptoms.
Like Teachme and others here, I think it is so important to stress how important fear is in the perpetuation of symptoms. It's everything!
|
| Back2-It |
Posted - 03/28/2011 : 06:00:12
JB...
I saw where it said you were done with the chiro. I was just restating the fact and how going to one -- even one who had my best interest in mind-- poisoned my mind.
I still believe both long term anxiety and pain have to be controlled if anybody is going to be successful in dealing with the emotional. If you find the shot helps you (here's hoping it does), then keep up the mind work.
|
| Jonathan Baruch |
Posted - 03/27/2011 : 20:37:06
I said I was done with chiropractor, in retrospect I am pissed I went at all. But, damn I feel like i am sliding in the wrong direction. Tomorrow I go for an epidural. Reading mind over back pain tonight. Need some inspiration!
quote]Originally posted by Back2-It
JB...
quote:
Do you not endorse or believe in treating the pain
Sarno says take a pain pill. My opinion is, that if you don't deal with the pain it will cloud your thoughts and interfere with the mental work. Fear that the pain won't be tapered enough to live your life will lead to more fear and anxiety and depression and make things that much harder.
Chiro's look for the structural thing, so if you believe the Sarno gospel or the anxiety gospel it won't help in the long run or maybe even the short run.
The same Chiro I went to early on, who wasn't afraid to deal with my condition, both gave me hope and then poisoned my thoughts. Because it's all structural to him, he said that I may never recover 100%. What he based that on was that somehow a protruding disc would interfere with "something" never quite explained.
Stay the course. Work your mind. Take a pill if you have to.
Just my two sheckles.
[/quote]
Life is good!
JB |
| art |
Posted - 03/27/2011 : 06:06:37
quote:
Originally posted by Jonathan Baruch
Art, I understand what u mean. I am done with the chiropractor, but let me ask you a question. Do you not endorse or believe in treating the pain, while dealing with TMS?I know that any medication or epidurals are temporary, and one has to deal with the underlying issues, but the physical pain is real.
Life is good!
JB
quote:
Originally posted by Jonathan Baruch
Art, I understand what u mean. I am done with the chiropractor, but let me ask you a question. Do you not endorse or believe in treating the pain, while dealing with TMS?I know that any medication or epidurals are temporary, and one has to deal with the underlying issues, but the physical pain is real.
Life is good!
JB
There's no problem with treating the pain. But let's think about your method of treating it. An analgesic works at the brain's pain center. It's effective and cheap. When the pill wears off you can take another as needed and expect continued relief. All well and good.
But what does a chiropractic adjustment do? According to your chiropractor it realigns your back. But your back needs no such realignment. Any relief is generally a placebo effect. Nothing wrong with that, but it's expensive (many times the cost of 2 advil), and temporary. Eventually it will stop working altogether. Moreover as I said, it's likely to interfere with your commitment to the TMS approach,thus slowing any progress. |
| tennis tom |
Posted - 03/26/2011 : 21:20:17
JB, who is your Sarno Doctor if you care to say?
DR. SARNO'S 12 DAILY REMINDERS:
http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6415
TAKE THE HOLMES-RAHE STRESS TEST
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holmes_and_Rahe_stress_scale
Some of my favorite excerpts from _THE DIVIDED MIND_ :
http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2605
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." Jiddu Krishnamurti
|
| Back2-It |
Posted - 03/26/2011 : 21:08:36
JB...
quote:
Do you not endorse or believe in treating the pain
Sarno says take a pain pill. My opinion is, that if you don't deal with the pain it will cloud your thoughts and interfere with the mental work. Fear that the pain won't be tapered enough to live your life will lead to more fear and anxiety and depression and make things that much harder.
Chiro's look for the structural thing, so if you believe the Sarno gospel or the anxiety gospel it won't help in the long run or maybe even the short run.
The same Chiro I went to early on, who wasn't afraid to deal with my condition, both gave me hope and then poisoned my thoughts. Because it's all structural to him, he said that I may never recover 100%. What he based that on was that somehow a protruding disc would interfere with "something" never quite explained.
Stay the course. Work your mind. Take a pill if you have to.
Just my two sheckles. |
| Jonathan Baruch |
Posted - 03/26/2011 : 20:12:20
Art, I understand what u mean. I am done with the chiropractor, but let me ask you a question. Do you not endorse or believe in treating the pain, while dealing with TMS?I know that any medication or epidurals are temporary, and one has to deal with the underlying issues, but the physical pain is real.
Life is good!
JB |
| art |
Posted - 03/26/2011 : 12:42:39
It's very difficult for me to wrap my mind around how one can declare their pain psychosomatic then seek out a treatment that by its very nature assumes structural problems.
Sounds to me like your chiropractor is talking out of both sides of his mouth. He spends his days adjusting backs that for the most part need no such thing...
You're in a no man's land. Since you've now presumably got doubts concerning the efficacy of chiropractic, you're not even going to get the usual temporary placebo effect. And since you're not fully buying in to Sarno (actions speak louder than words. you can "swear" your allegiance all you want), it's less likely you'll get relief on that end either...
All that said, it doesn't really matter what you believe or do, as long as you stop fearing your pain. That's the good news. (All in my opinion naturally).
Quit fighting and relax. 9 chances out of 10 you'll make a full recovery. |
| Jonathan Baruch |
Posted - 03/26/2011 : 11:04:00
Art, appreciate the no mans land concept, but I am donevwith the chiropractor. The epidural is at the advice ofbthe md, Sarno's student who says the TMS is making the pain worse, so for the moment while treating TMS, get some relief.
I agree, as I have been journaling, and self analyzing and quitecfrankly getting nowhere. My doc, who was trained by Sarno, says there is nothing wrong with pain management while also acknowledging and accepting TMS. I must say I have readcthe books, meditated, acknowledged TMS and I am really, really frustrated. I stopped the chiropractic stuff, saw my shrink, which kinda helped, but my progress is going in thecwrong direction. This Monday, I am getting an epidural, to help relief the pain. However, I know this doesn't treat the mind, which I swear I am working on simultaneously. Yes, I am rambling, but would love to hear some thoughts.......
quote:
Originally posted by art
Welcome to the club, wrld. Seems clear to me as well, as I've said too many times already, that fear (and perhaps stress in general) is the culprit. Some might argue it's merely an academic discussion, but I see folks struggling unnecessarily in my opinion. Endless self-analysis and journaling which sometimes only serve to create more fear and stress when they don't reduce pain...
Life is good!
JB |
| art |
Posted - 03/25/2011 : 09:16:27
Welcome to the club, wrld. Seems clear to me as well, as I've said too many times already, that fear (and perhaps stress in general) is the culprit. Some might argue it's merely an academic discussion, but I see folks struggling unnecessarily in my opinion. Endless self-analysis and journaling which sometimes only serve to create more fear and stress when they don't reduce pain...
|
| wrldtrv |
Posted - 03/24/2011 : 20:15:34
Maybe we've exhausted this topic, but today as I was battling another TMS symptom (an old standby), it occurred to me that I probably disagree with Sarno's contention that TMS symptoms arise only from that which is repressed, that which is unconscious. Firstly, I'm so introspective that I doubt that there is much down there that I have not already speculated about at one time or another. Secondly, there is so much concrete real life stress in my daily life, regrets for the past, fears about the future...that this conscious part alone is surely spark enough for TMS. Further, I am so very aware of how my symptoms rise and fall with my general stress level. They can move, change radically within hours or even minutes depending upon my emotional situation.
The debate here was about fear. I am more clear than ever that fear is what sustains my symptoms. The fear owns me! So often I hedge my bets, trying a combination of conventional and Sarno approach, which feels like cheating, but often I don't have the stomach to face the symtoms head on. Always, there is the fear that I will make matters worse and that seems unbearable. Better to pay lip service to TMS, but sneakily toss down some ibuprofin.
Yes, I think (for me, anyway), it's all about fear. Nothing else comes close. |
| alexis |
Posted - 03/23/2011 : 06:13:55
Hi Hillbilly,
It just dawned on me why you keep saying you don't understand what I'm talking about and asking "where" a distraction comes from. This whole confusion didn't really make sense to me as we're talking about the same biological systems except, as I said, I'm talking about conditioned responses.
The first discrepancy in our premises was obviously that we have different ideas about control and choice (I don't see the same distinctions you do). But I think a much bigger issue is that you, I believe, are looking at the autonomic nervous system as entirely automatic, and outside of conscious (or subconsious if some prefer) control. I'm looking at the research over the last 20 years or so where there's been a lot of work on conditioned autonomic response (which is mostly what I'm talking about) and conscious control (especially with biofeedback) - which is roughly what I'm talking about when I say I've learned to control/generate certain pains.
I do know that in the older anxiety work folks were starting to touch on this, but mostly in the reverse - diminishing of symptoms rather than increasing was the area of interest. But the idea is that it goes both ways...one can use conditioning and learned control both to diminish and create or exaggerate responses.
Anyway, I hope that clears up one of the confusions, though I don't expect it to lead to agreement since the possibility of interference with automatic response doesn't by any means imply it is in any given instance occurring.
Alexis
|
| alexis |
Posted - 03/21/2011 : 20:06:46
quote:
Originally posted by Hillbilly
Again, I know my thoughts and experiences won't cover everyone's psychological experiences, view of reality or theory of mind.
We'll have to agree that these are either different experiences, or that our interpretations of them are at this point irreconcilable.
quote:
Originally posted by Hillbilly
I would like to say, however, that Drs. Low and Weekes, the true giants of treating psychologically induced physiological disorders, wrote of their successes in a very useful and lucid style. I don't know what you mean by anxiety research, but their works would be where I would point you for more information without having to slog through my boorish parlance.
By "anxiety research" I mean real controlled studies done by professionals in the field and published in peer reviewed journals.
While Weekes is a great popular author whose ideas have helped many, she is just that, a popular non-psychologist who speaks from her own personal reading of other people's research and her personal experience in practice - exactly like Sarno but with a different bent. I do think Weekes is a help when you need it (I've read her myself and her approach on panic has clearly helped thousands), but for purely academic interest I tend to prefer journal publications. I don't know if I've read Low - at least not sure which Low you mean. |
| art |
Posted - 03/21/2011 : 10:16:14
Hi,
My thoughts are that chiropractic is essentially a placebo dependent treatment... the premise of which is that there are structural problems that need be addressed to alleviate pain..
Chiropractic is in approach and philosophy as far away from Sarno and his tenets as you can get..
I suggest reading or re-reading Healing Back Pain. Dollars to donuts you'll quickly improve after that
|
| Jonathan Baruch |
Posted - 03/20/2011 : 18:28:03
Art, I never actually thought of that...duh, but my doc, who is student of Sarno, does believe in alleviating pain, while also coping with TMS. Thoughts?
Life is good!
JB |
|
|
