| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| PRCalDude |
Posted - 03/10/2010 : 09:54:25
It's been about 2 years since I was given the official TMS diagnosis, and I have to say that the current methods of treating it all suck.
Sarno and his disciples believe that knowledge therapy is all that is needed to get rid of the illness. Well, if the brain finds the distraction strategy useful and helpful, it can overwhelm your attempts to control your own thoughts. Sure, telling yourself that the pain is all psychological can help in the short run, but I read of countless people on this very forum who have relapses and who live in fear of relapses.
Journaling and therapy work for about half of the people. The true results of the TMS treatment protocol, as practiced now, are down around 50%. In other words, half the people diagnosed with it get better and half don't. A TMS therapist told me that. Sarno is lying or misrepresenting the facts when he says otherwise, which is probably the reason so many of his academic papers have been rejected for publication.
The therapy is expensive and unhelpful. The doctors tell you that you don't have to change how you think to "cure" TMS, but the therapists do AND THE PAIN WON'T GO AWAY UNTIL YOU DO! I had great insurance when I went to see my TMS therapist and was still paying $150 out of pocket for a 1-hr session of dysfunctional cognitive behavioral therapy.
Affirmations, reminders, imagery, "being present" - these are all attempts to control thoughts that work in the short-term, but your mind thinks you are lying to it in the long-term and after about a few weeks, your mind produces a severe and demoralizing backlash. (As an aside, Runningpain.com's book falls under all of these categories - I've tried it, it made the problem worse because no one can control what they think really).
Finally, this brings me to my point. The TMS diagnosis is helpful, but beyond that, the TMS doctors can't do very much for you other than take $100-150 every time you come in (I deny that this treatment is more cost-effective than other treatments, btw).
The real problem is not really even our pain - it's the struggle WITH the pain and the rules we've created for ourselves about the pain (ie, I can't be happy until I get rid of this pain, I can't ___ while I have this pain). This struggle, and these rules, are a construct of our brain that we've bought into because of unhealthy patterns of thinking which can never truly be controled or stopped, only moved into the background noise.
I've been working my way through these 2 books and have found them immensely more helpful and cost-effective than going to therapy and seeing the TMS doctor for a 5 minute/$90 conversation in which he impatiently tries to move on to the next patient.
http://www.amazon.com/Happiness-Trap-Struggling-Start-Living/dp/1590305841/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1268239429&sr=8-1
http://www.amazon.com/Living-Beyond-Your-Pain-Acceptance/dp/1572244097/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1268239458&sr=1-1
These books have helped me realize that pain and suffering are a part of life. Struggling with the pain just makes it worse and causes suffering. The pain isn't really the cause of my suffering. I only suffer when my thinking is absorbed by this "illness" and I don't act according to my values because I buy into the story my mind has told me about the pain. Accepting the pain and moving on with life are the key (a non-controversial idea, to be sure).
I've decided that much of what Sarno says is probably pseudo-scientific. He's still trapped in the era of Freudian psychology - for crying out loud - which plays no part in modern psychological practice because of it was found to be junk science by later researchers. (I have my theories as to why Sarno would promote such a thing, but they're not repeatable here.) I think what happens with a lot of these TMS patients is that they get marked in the "cured" category by the doctors because they don't show back up for awhile, their treatment having failed. Really, they were set up for failure in the first place because they were told EVERYONE GETS BETTER IF YOU DON'T YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG!!1111!! This only feeds into "the happiness trap" and keeps us struggling with our pain. It's really no wonder that no one will publish Sarno or his close-minded religious disciples.
That's my take on the matter after 2 years of dealing with it. Feel free to disagree. I find that the less I struggle with the pain (and anxiety, and anger), the better off I am. I still have pain, but I'm not going to let it prevent me from living the life I want to live.
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| 11 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| shawnsmith |
Posted - 03/25/2010 : 15:41:54
Thanks for sharing. I am going to read "Living Beyond Your Pain: Using Acceptance & Commitment Therapy to Ease Chronic Pain" by Joanne Dahl per your suggestion. |
| stanfr |
Posted - 03/20/2010 : 23:17:15
I've got to say im sick and tired of people coming on this board and bashing and ridiculing Sarno. If you don't like Sarno---fine, get off this forum and go start your own. Good grief, If you search my posts you'll see that i'm the last person to accept Sarno's theories word for word, but this forum is a place to support people who are suffering from spychosamtic problems, not to cut off a potential source of recovery simply becuase you're mad that it 'didn't work' for you. Reading Sarnos books 12+ years ago was a Godsend to me, it allowed me to quickly and thoroughly recover from dehabilitating pain that i probably would have had surgery for if i hadnt have come across Sarno's works. It took a visit to the Dr himself for what he was telling me to sink in--but it worked, 100%, ive never had that symptom again. And incidentally, if Sarno had wanted to make a buck off his work, he sure could have done a lot better--self promotion is most definitely not what he is about.
That being said, I believe there is value in other approaches because anxiety plays a major role in many of these symtoms. It has locked me to an ongoing battle with various helath problems, and I'll look at Claire Weekes, Sarno, Brady etc etc---the more info the better!! But it is most definitely not about "living with or dealing with pain", it's about overcoming pain/symptoms completely, and I'll do what it takes to get me there. Being mad that this or that "doesn't work" just puts you right back in that self-defeating vicious cycle, and you really sound pathetic, quite frankly. Don't ever generalize based on your personal experience, thats the worst mistake that unfortunately too many people who post here make time and time again. This is a place to be supportive of everyone's success, not to whine and complain. End O' Rant.  |
| catspine |
Posted - 03/20/2010 : 17:30:20
Thank you Dave .
You could not possibly let someone post that Dr Sarno's theory is sheer nonsense in a forum based on his work. Patils must have been overwhelmed by the joy of being pain free when his personality took over all of a sudden .
The interesting part in his recovery though is that unbeknown to him it may originate in that he finally became able to express the real nature of his emotions (unfortunately in a way incompatible with the policy of this forum of course) and got rid of the pain in the process if this is confirmed by a lasting state of being pain free... Even more amazing is the path that led him to it.
Now that he's been wisely warned to choose his words more carefully I'm curious to find out if his recovery lasts or not so I hope that at any rate he lets us know.
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| Dave |
Posted - 03/20/2010 : 10:28:53
Patils,
You seem to have found all the answers. That's great for you. Yet, your post seems like an infomercial making ridiclous claims that you cannot possibly back up.
If you feel that a M.D. with 4 decades of experience treating actual patients is "pseudo-science", but you have figured it all out in 2 years by reading a couple of books, then I applaud your self-confidence.
You say "not a single relapse is possible if you have strong will." Really? Since it seems you've only been "cured" for a short time, I don't see how you can possibly make this claim.
You say later researchers have dismissed Freud's theories as "junk science." So, you believe modern medicine now has all the answers? Have we finally learned everything there is to know about how the brain works? To believe this is pure arrogance. The fact is, in 30 years, there will be more researchers who dismiss current psychological theories as "junk science." This is human nature and the cycle will continue forever.
The sad thing about your conclusions, is that you do not see the similarities with Dr. Sarno's theory and treatment plan. This tells me the theory never really "clicked" with you. That's fine, because the theory is not for everyone. Yet, your need to come back to this forum, pump your chest, and post your opinions as if they were fact, says something about your personality that ironically is very consistent with Dr. Sarno's theory.
And your final statement is really no different than what Dr. Sarno suggests:
"I still have pain, but I'm not going to let it prevent me from living the life I want to live."
Getting to this point, where you can ignore the symptoms, accept them and not fear them, and resume normal activities, is exactly what TMS treatment is all about.
I'm glad you believe you have found the answers. If you no longer believe Dr. Sarno's theories are for you, then I'm sure you will choose to move on and not post here anymore. |
| patils |
Posted - 03/19/2010 : 15:51:51
quote:
Originally posted by PRCalDude
It's been about 2 years since I was given the official TMS diagnosis, and I have to say that the current methods of treating it all suck.
Sarno and his disciples believe that knowledge therapy is all that is needed to get rid of the illness. Well, if the brain finds the distraction strategy useful and helpful, it can overwhelm your attempts to control your own thoughts. Sure, telling yourself that the pain is all psychological can help in the short run, but I read of countless people on this very forum who have relapses and who live in fear of relapses.
Journaling and therapy work for about half of the people. The true results of the TMS treatment protocol, as practiced now, are down around 50%. In other words, half the people diagnosed with it get better and half don't. A TMS therapist told me that. Sarno is lying or misrepresenting the facts when he says otherwise, which is probably the reason so many of his academic papers have been rejected for publication.
The therapy is expensive and unhelpful. The doctors tell you that you don't have to change how you think to "cure" TMS, but the therapists do AND THE PAIN WON'T GO AWAY UNTIL YOU DO! I had great insurance when I went to see my TMS therapist and was still paying $150 out of pocket for a 1-hr session of dysfunctional cognitive behavioral therapy.
Affirmations, reminders, imagery, "being present" - these are all attempts to control thoughts that work in the short-term, but your mind thinks you are lying to it in the long-term and after about a few weeks, your mind produces a severe and demoralizing backlash. (As an aside, Runningpain.com's book falls under all of these categories - I've tried it, it made the problem worse because no one can control what they think really).
Finally, this brings me to my point. The TMS diagnosis is helpful, but beyond that, the TMS doctors can't do very much for you other than take $100-150 every time you come in (I deny that this treatment is more cost-effective than other treatments, btw).
The real problem is not really even our pain - it's the struggle WITH the pain and the rules we've created for ourselves about the pain (ie, I can't be happy until I get rid of this pain, I can't ___ while I have this pain). This struggle, and these rules, are a construct of our brain that we've bought into because of unhealthy patterns of thinking which can never truly be controled or stopped, only moved into the background noise.
I've been working my way through these 2 books and have found them immensely more helpful and cost-effective than going to therapy and seeing the TMS doctor for a 5 minute/$90 conversation in which he impatiently tries to move on to the next patient.
http://www.amazon.com/Happiness-Trap-Struggling-Start-Living/dp/1590305841/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1268239429&sr=8-1
http://www.amazon.com/Living-Beyond-Your-Pain-Acceptance/dp/1572244097/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1268239458&sr=1-1
These books have helped me realize that pain and suffering are a part of life. Struggling with the pain just makes it worse and causes suffering. The pain isn't really the cause of my suffering. I only suffer when my thinking is absorbed by this "illness" and I don't act according to my values because I buy into the story my mind has told me about the pain. Accepting the pain and moving on with life are the key (a non-controversial idea, to be sure).
I've decided that much of what Sarno says is probably pseudo-scientific. He's still trapped in the era of Freudian psychology - for crying out loud - which plays no part in modern psychological practice because of it was found to be junk science by later researchers. (I have my theories as to why Sarno would promote such a thing, but they're not repeatable here.) I think what happens with a lot of these TMS patients is that they get marked in the "cured" category by the doctors because they don't show back up for awhile, their treatment having failed. Really, they were set up for failure in the first place because they were told EVERYONE GETS BETTER IF YOU DON'T YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG!!1111!! This only feeds into "the happiness trap" and keeps us struggling with our pain. It's really no wonder that no one will publish Sarno or his close-minded religious disciples.
That's my take on the matter after 2 years of dealing with it. Feel free to disagree. I find that the less I struggle with the pain (and anxiety, and anger), the better off I am. I still have pain, but I'm not going to let it prevent me from living the life I want to live.
Sarno Theory is sheer nonsense. I too have struggled for almost one year and then suddenely came across Hilliby's post and that alerted me and then I changed my approach and finally succeeded.
Please believe me these symptoms can be 100 % stopped and that too instantly when you realise that continuid negative and fearful thinking is keeping these symptoms with you.
People are talking about relapses but not a single relapse is possible if you have strong will.
Any form of fixation will cause stress. You cannot relax when body is ready to fight and symptomes will continue. So do not try to fix these symptoms. We have to treat cause and not symptoms.
I have read and read Hilliby's all posts till my each body cell absorbed what he is saying and then I saw progress.
Apart from Hilliby's posts these two books have helped me a lot :
1) Mental Health ... through Will training and
2) Hope and help for your nerves.
Free copy of first book is available on net. This is superb book by Abraham Low and it will give you honest picture of your symptoms. Sarno books are just baby books in front of this book.
Sachin |
| PRCalDude |
Posted - 03/19/2010 : 14:35:33
quote:
http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6209
“I'm still in pain, but I'm getting my life back, and unbelievably, that seems to be lessening the impact of the pain, which is actually lessening my perception of the pain, and so on...Funny how that works. “ - a virtuous circle.
Unfortunately, in all of Sarno's books he tells you to "talk to your mind" to convince yourself that the pain isn't real and to try to forget about it. I think this has the exact opposite effect of what he intends, based on my own experience and what I've been reading lately.
If you try NOT to think about something, YOU WILL think about it. As an experiment, try not to think about "bananas" for the next minute and see how successful you are.
Great post otherwise though. |
| catspine |
Posted - 03/15/2010 : 17:31:33
TMS is a weird condition for some reason a simple phrase pretty much unexpected that hits the right target can make the pain go away for ever while an other one pretty much unexpected also can make it come back just as well and throw you in relapse mode for years or months until one finds the way out again by stealth or accident.
I was badly crippled by the effects of TMS and overcame them all as far as back problems go and it is not due to psychotherapy because I simply couldn't afford it. The question whether Dr Sarno's method works best or not is irrelevant in my opinion : for some people it's heaven sent and for other a big waste of time and money to choose psychotherapy. There is no guaranty ever that what we do (no matter how well) will yield the expected result and especially not with something like an issue based on emotions. All there is is a better chance that it will work if we commit more but still no guaranty.
That's why hope is so crucial.
For those who are still in pain my heart goes to them and I trust they will heal too when the time comes.
To do something right one needs experience and experience comes from doing it wrong most of the time. Dr Sarno's theory may not be perfect but at least he tried and succeeded much to our benefit where so many others failed or simply didn't give a damn. If he had not made an effort to offer an alternative to what there was available there would not even be a forum to discuss it I suppose so even if I use a different method to heal myself when I have to because of the limits of his theory I still have respect for the man and what he did to the best of his abilities as I wouldn't dare to criticize something I couldn't have done myself.
I often think of the Chinese proverb : Give a fish to a man and you feed him for a day but teach him how to fish and you'll feed him for life.
It seems like that's almost what he did: Once he knew that we can heal based on what he found and wrote about it openly, what we'll make of it is more a matter of developing our own skills .
There are plenty of good books out there and plenty of capable people willing to help us out and there is probably more to come as time goes by but I thought it would be appropriate while talking about books to honor a man who was willing to try to do more good than bad.
I also felt compelled to write this for people who have used his methods successfully to recover and who's fragile recovery depends entirely on their belief in Dr Sarno's theory.
I've gone through enough to use discernment and not to base my well being on the latest post I read but I'm well aware that some people who are not there yet and are subject to what someone else says because doubts remain. It would be wise for some people who have enough experience already to be considerate for the ones who don't. Healing and recovery sometimes hang on a thread. Thank you.
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| truenorth |
Posted - 03/15/2010 : 12:53:13
PRCalDude,
I think your post is amazing and really on target. I'm many years out from seeing Sarno and no better. In fact, worse, which probably upsets a lot of people on this board. When I have posted, the responses all seem to have a subtext that I'm responsible for not getting better because I have done the "right" things.
I agree that long-term sufferers are caught in a syndrome, a pain syndrome that feeds on itself. I will buy and read the two books you mention.
I did try psychotherapy with two TMS docs, one in person for 18 months (cost about $12,000) and other by phone. None uncovered anything earth shattering, which make sense to me. I have deep sadness and anger about lots of things. So what? I've filled books journaling about it as well as countless therapy sessions and it didn't help. So much for that theory.
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| HilaryN |
Posted - 03/14/2010 : 17:19:30
Hi guys,
I'm sorry you're still struggling with your pain – I can understand you feeling very frustrated and disappointed.
I was lucky enough to be cured of my repetitive strain injury within 6 months (2nd time around... the 1st time I gave up after a couple of weeks.)
I think it's important to realise that therapy isn't a quick fix. It takes years for us to develop our habits and it can take a long time to uncover them. Trying to go too fast can be counter-productive.
After I cured my RSI I still got minor ailments which I regard as TMS equivalents (and have had a lot of success in treating that way). I'm talking the “normal” kind of stuff which nearly everyone gets from time to time: colds, flu-like virus, headaches, occasional skin complaints... even shoes which hurt!
With the benefit of TMS knowledge I've taken a different approach to these ailments. (After all, if a computer can be a “trigger” for RSI, why shouldn't shoes also be a trigger for TMS?)
But I think it would be nice to not get these ailments at all – I think we all have a right to perfect health – or at least to be able to tune in to what's the real cause, as opposed to my current approach, which is to talk severely to myself and tell myself it's TMS rather than physically caused.
So I've decided to take a proactive approach and have psychotherapy. Aside from the physical issues, psychotherapy has big benefits in other areas, too. I regard myself as still “scratching the surface”, even though I'm nearly 2 years in. But I regard psychotherapy as an investment in myself – one which no-one can take away from me, unlike stock market and property investments.
Secondly, I don't think one should assume that the psychotherapist is going to fix you. One has to take responsibility for oneself and approach psychotherapy as an equal partnership. (Maybe some would disagree with me on that, it's just my thoughts.)
On the note of taking responsibility for oneself, one thing I've learned through reading this forum is that there is no single solution which works for everybody. (Admittedly I don't read Hillbilly's posts because the language he uses is too complex for me to understand and as I don't suffer from anxiety they don't seem relevant enough to make the struggle to understand them worthwhile in my case! But I know a lot of people find them valuable.)
I think it was on Stephanie Gagos' site:
www.myvoicesoftruth.com
(unfortunately I cant find the exact page anymore, maybe she's taken it off)
that I read something along the lines of “When I read Dr Sarno's book, I wanted someone to tell .me exactly what I should do to get better, what steps to follow.” Instead of which, it seems to be very much an individual journey for each person, and each one has to find their own unique journey. (Incidentally that journey often starts long before we find out about TMS.) Part of that journey includes taking responsibility for oneself, not necessarily in psychotherapy, but in whatever path one chooses to follow. The journey includes trying out things which don't work for you. That's not wasted time or money, it's just part of your unique journey. It also doesn't mean that the things which don't work for you won't work for others, who have their own unique journey.
PRCal and johnnybill, I think that's what you've done. You've taken responsibility for yourself and you are finding your own unique journey. Bravo!
quote:
I find that the less I struggle with the pain (and anxiety, and anger), the better off I am.
That seems to be an important step for many people. Guej wrote in this thread:
http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6209
“I'm still in pain, but I'm getting my life back, and unbelievably, that seems to be lessening the impact of the pain, which is actually lessening my perception of the pain, and so on...Funny how that works. “ - a virtuous circle.
You might also find this thread useful:
http://tmswiki.wetpaint.com/thread/3383681/Why+do+some+people+not+get+on+with+Dr+Sarno%27s+method%3F
And even for relapsers there is hope, as skizzik's story shows:
http://tmswiki.wetpaint.com/page/Relapser%27s+curse+-+there+is+hope%21
Hilary N |
| PRCalDude |
Posted - 03/10/2010 : 15:57:37
Thanks, Johnny. It appears other people are saying the same thing. HillBilly's posts are very good:
http://tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=4382
I don't feel like spending any more money for therapy but I've been having success with anxiety with the ACT approach, which is similar to Weekes' but goes beyond it. Much of it is based on simply allowing emotions and sensations to be there and returning to the task at hand, which is part of what HillBilly was saying.
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| johnnybill45 |
Posted - 03/10/2010 : 13:08:19
I tend to agree with you. I've read Sarno's books years ago and have struggled with TMS and wondering if I was in the group that needed therapy, but always though therapy is a rip-off. I do believe that one "creates their own reality" and have recently found more success in creating a new reality for myself. One where the pain is minimal and doesn't stop me from doing what I want. Of course, TMS people who really do get better are also creating a new reality as well. Right?
My brain is not stupid so I can't really "fool" it and I have a hard time thinking that "it" will ever give up. Nevertheless, I still find Sarno's books helpful because frankly - I have no structural damage. So where else does the pain come from if not my brain/mind? I don't get debilitating back spasms anymore, but do have chronic low back soreness daily.
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