| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| UK-Pete |
Posted - 01/13/2005 : 10:31:06
I posted a couple of days ago to explain how I had had a relapse after a year pain-free - thanks for the supportive messages and ideas from you people helping me out.
Thought I would share what my 'guru' does with me. I got into the Sarno stuff before Xmas '03 after going to see a physio-who-now-practices-craniosacral-therapy. I saw this guy very much in desperation having had repeated problems over 4 years (knee, then low-back, then shoulder), and was pretty sceptical. Fortunately for a typical male sceptic, he has a few confidance building features - ex-pro footballer (that's soccer for the US readers), currently works with a top-division pro-football team. This meant I couldn't just dismiss him as some woolly new-age type. Anyway, as well as educating me about Sarno and TMS he practised his craniosacral stuff too.
He (like other practioners) can "measure" the flow and pulse of the craniosacral system (basically the fluid that links the brain, and spinal cord). He believes that this system is somehow linked to the unconcious mind, and unconcious issues can be reflected by changes/blockages in the craniosacral system. What he did with me was as follows:
he places his hands on the appropriate part of my body where the cranial pulse is doing something odd (NB not necessarily the site of any physical pain) he then gets me to close my eyes and focus on whatever it is I can see now I find this really hard, as apparantly many men do
however, at times I have been able to "see" or "feel" things in the peripherary of my concious when this happens he questions whatever is going on in there, and asks "it" (the gremlin, my unconcious, whatever) to reveal more.
In the most vivid occasion I somehow stumbled onto a memory from childhood where I had been caught up in a fight, in the flashback situation he asked me to relive the occasion and this time, rather than running away, I confronted the attacker who physically shrank (in my concious mind) and effectively ran away. Now I thought that this was weird enough, but then realised that in the real-life incident I was punched very hard on the shoulder as I ran away from the attacker - low and behold that was exactly where my TMS pain appeared 15 years later.
My guess is that this type of visualisation is an alternative to the 'think psychological' or pyschotherapy stuff that forms part of the Sarno concepts.
In combination with reading the book and watching the video, about 5 sessions with this therapist sorted my shoulder problems out. I then had the confidence to ignore my previous knee and low-back pain (rationalising it as TMS-driven rather than physical) and took up sport again. For 12 months I was fine but then low-back pain flared again.
I am back seeing the therapist again, hopefully I will have similar success.
I'd be interested in any views or experience any of you have on this, and the link between craniosacral work and TMS |
| 13 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| lobstershack |
Posted - 01/22/2005 : 20:47:18
I too, subjected myself to craniosacral, albeit with a wonderful practitioner, as well as the infamous Alexander Technique. Neither worked, except for a possible placebo here and there.
Seth |
| NLK |
Posted - 01/22/2005 : 10:25:28
I just finished my 10 Rolfing sessions, and I loved it. It's not painless, but you can end up feeling more balanced in your own structure (body).
I didn't view it as a possible fix for my back pain, but it did help. And, it was my Rolfer who suggested I read Sarno's books!
You can find out more about what Rolfing is (and isn't) at www.rolf.org (US) and www.rolfing.org (Europe)
:-)
Nancy |
| Peaceful Warrior |
Posted - 01/21/2005 : 23:31:30
Hi, I just wanted to say that I tried craniosacral therapy and visceral therapy for 6 weeks. I think it was absolutely ridiculous and I was made a fool of. The doctor even had me drink this liver cleanser for those months which was really expensive. No relief at all. She didn't do anything but put her fingers on me! Oh well, this is just my experience with it. Everyone's different I guess. I think for those whom it works for, it's just some placebo thing where they think they're getting cured. |
| tennis tom |
Posted - 01/18/2005 : 00:43:54
Hi Carol,
It's been a number of years since I got Rolfed. I looked it up on the Rolfing web site and the description there is the usual body-work mumbo-jumbo buzz words that really don't tell anyone what it is all about. It is a VERY deep type of body work developed by Ida Rolfe about 50 years ago. It talks about "structural integration", whatever that means. It concentrates on the fascia which is the outter sheath or "skin" of the muscles. I believe the theory is that the fascia gets tight and needs to be relaxed to allow the muscles to have space. Some people do Rolfing to see auras.
I did nearly one hundred Rolfing sessions, years ago, in the early stages of my TMS/back pain. That's a LOT. It gets addicting like most forms of body work used for therapy, such as massage, chiro, accupuncture, etc. I guess, my description of it would be an extreme form of massage. I would have bruises ocassionaly. There is a basic 10 sessions that hits all the body parts and orifices. It's sort of like surgery without the knife. Muscles are stretched and moved around. It is painful and not for the squeamish. If you are masochistic you would love it. I never breathed as deeply as I did after the Rolfer put his finger up my sinuses, (he wore a latex glove of course). My jaws felt quite loose also after being deeply stretched. I didn't see any auras since I was having the work done to try to fix my back. At that time, I thought the problem was with my psoas, and that is quite a deep muscle to access - but he dug in there and sure enough found it. I can definitely see where some people could access there auras - in that much pain, you could imagine seeing anything. To ease the pain, my Rolfer and I would joke around, until I said uncle.
That said, I "enjoyed" the Rolfing experience and wouldn't mind doing the ten sessions over again, (it feels so good when they stop). I am somewhat of a masochist, I suppose, and can tolerate pain well. Do I think it will "cure" TMS psychogenic pain? - NO. I had almost 100 sessions and my TMS back pain was not cured by it. It's like all the other PT approaches to TMS psychogenic pain, temporary placebo relief and you're always making an appointment for next week. But if you like really deep work, give it a try, the bruises make for good cocktail party conversation.
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| Carol |
Posted - 01/17/2005 : 09:00:22
What is Rolfing? I have seen the word many times during my back pain research, but have no idea what it is.
Carol |
| tennis tom |
Posted - 01/15/2005 : 19:23:51
UK-Pete,
I agree with Hilary, that Sarno is better because he teaches us to fish rather than just giving us a fish. I have had several cranio-sacral sessions. I had a very powerful experience the first time. I had a release of energy that "wooshed" through my spine. I don't know what happened but it felt like the fluid that circulates from our brain through our spinal column had a total release that I have never felt before or since.
It was about five years ago, on a Yoga retreat on the island of Crete. It was at sunset and the practioner was a very sensitive and intuitive gentlemen. My mother had died about a year before after nine months in ICU following a grievous complication of cancer surgery. I cried during the cranial-sacral session for the first time for my mother. Needless to say the experience was very unique, and moving. I don't know if I will ever experience a moment like that again.
That being said, I don't feel that the physcial aspect of the C-S work precipitated the powerful physical and emotional release. The physical part consisted of the practioner placing one hand under my head and the other under my lower back. In trying to understand the experience, I feel that it had to do with being on vacation in a beautiful setting, very relaxed, a sensitive and intuitive guide and emotions that needed to come out.
I have tried numerous other physical healing modalities including Rolfing and accupuncture. The Rolfing was totaly physcial, none of that "aura" stuff that some are looking for. Accupuncture was very relaxing, but never for very long after the ride home on the freeway. I think accupuncture soothes us because we are forced to stop "doing" for a little while - after all where are you going to go with all those needles sticking out of you? I think that these various practices are soothing but in themselves healing only by placebo and the psychological trust relationship with the practitioner. |
| UK-Pete |
Posted - 01/15/2005 : 12:51:38
UK-James is correct in saying that I am Manchester based and guess we have seen the same guy (if there are two like him then maybe our US cousins should come over here for TMS therapy!). For those UK based sufferers who want to give him a go his name is Danny Donachie, he practices out of Hale, Cheshire (South Manchester really) contact him via the Wendy Smythe Dental practice where he has a room. |
| Hilary |
Posted - 01/15/2005 : 05:24:49
I feel as if I ought to change my name to "UK Hilary"!
UKPete, you've just summarized exactly how I feel about the chain of chiros, energy-therapists, osteos etc I've seen over the years. What makes Sarno's theory so exciting for me is that he puts the emphasis for healing on the patient, and insists that the patient understand the psychological AND physiological aspects of the process. It's not just someone doing something mysterious to you that will heal you. Thanks for putting into words what I've been trying to verbalize for years!
quote:
Originally posted by UK-Pete
But without involving me in the process, and getting me to focus on what was going on in my head, this was never going to have an impact on my TMS.
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| UK james |
Posted - 01/15/2005 : 04:46:37
Pete
I think I know who u saw (Manchester based?). I had chronic back pain and before that groin injuries from the age of 16. I live in Manchester now but am originally from Sheffield and played for Chesterfield FC until I was 19 - the injuries ruined things. I am 26 now and before seeing X I wasted a small fortune on physios / chiropractors etc that only gave me the placebo effect. Since seeing X a year ago (I am unbelieveably grateful he was recommended to me) my back pain has gone, 100%. In the summer my achilles flared up but that is now sorted. I am now, for the first time since I was a young kid training hard, totally unrestricted and playing football at a good level.
Craniosacral therapy (the way is was practiced on you and I) to my mind ties in with TMS theory perfectly. Their is no manipulation at all, it is all about relaxation and trying to bring repressed feelings to the forefront of your mind. I don't know if every craniosacral therapist would be the same because the one we both know believes in Sarno / TMS and combines the two with amazing results. A therapist who does not know of TMS / Sarno may work differently - I don't know enough to be sure.
I still can't believe I am pain free - I don't take it for granted.
James |
| UK-Pete |
Posted - 01/14/2005 : 08:49:48
Thanks for the insights Laura. I haven't read any of the books you mentioned, but will seek them out. One thing I should have mentioned early is that about 3 years ago, in the early stages of my battles with low back pain, I went to see a "normal" cranial osteopath. Now this guy was the top guy in the area, he charges twice as much as anyone else and was highly thought of in his profession (he was one of the examiners for the British Society of Osteopaths or whatever they are called).
He made me more cynical than I had been before! For a start, he didn't give any explanation as to what he was doing, just prodded around and (I assume) was trying to sense my craniosacral flows and modify them. To nobody on this board's surprise this had no effect on me. He most definitely was working on manually intervening in my problem, either because he thought he could manipulate a strucutural defect or, thinking more generously, perhaps he thought he could affect my unconcious by his tweaks. But without involving me in the process, and getting me to focus on what was going on in my head, this was never going to have an impact on my TMS.
What I think I am trying to get over is that I share Dave's cynicism about "normal" craniosacral therapy, particularly if it involves someone trying to "fix" structural "issues". However, I do believe that my current practioner is on to something different, (using Dave's perspective above) assisting me to visualise what is bothering my unconcious. After all, accessing your unconcious is fundametal to Sarno's concepts - even if this route is different to journalling etc (my problem with the journalling route is that I am too literal minded and not used to self-analysis. Hence I find it difficult to get past the obvious things and focus in on the issues just outside our normal perception) |
| Laura |
Posted - 01/13/2005 : 15:51:43
Dear Pete,
I read your post with great interest. Sounds like for you this is working and you perhaps you should stick with it.
I personally believe there is something to it and do not believe doctors who practice this are quacks. That's just my opinion. Have you ever read the book Spontaneous Healing by Dr. Andrew Weil? It is a wonderful book, and it actually is the book wherein I leared about Dr. Sarno and his work. Dr. Weil is a big fan of Dr. Sarno. Dr. Weil is also a huge fan of Dr. Robert Fulford, an osteopath who practices the methods you describe. Dr. Fulford practiced medicine until his 80's and I don't believe he ever really retired. He has passed away recently but prior to his death he wrote one of the most fascinating books that I've ever read called Touch of Life. It is a fairly short, paperback book and he gives case and after case, describing what he did and how the patients improved. He was a miracle worker, to say the least. Dr. Fulford talks about the energy flowing through our bodies and blockages in different areas of our bodies due to emotional trauma. I think Dr. Sarno himself may even agree with some of Dr. Fulfords beliefs and I can definitely see how you would think this could help us TMSers.
Anyway, just thought I'd throw my two cents in as many people do not know of Dr. Fulford and his work and I think you would be someone who would benefit from reading the book. Good luck and keep doing what you're doing if it's working for you.
Laura
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| UK-Pete |
Posted - 01/13/2005 : 11:18:49
hang on, maybe I didn't express things carefully. This fellow is NOT trying to manipulate anything, he repudiates the structural and reckons all my problems will be psycological.
What he reckons is that there is some linkage between the unconcious and the cranial pulse - which is not that far-fetched if we believe that the unconcious creates physical changes e.g. TMS pain.
What he tries to do is assist his patient in "accessing" the unconcious.
The interesting thing from my experience is that when going through the emotional/memory stuff that I mentioned, all sorts of odd things were going on in my body e.g. my "sore" knee was twisting around, I felt a freeezing in the face etc. There is defintely something in this, can't explain properly perhaps, but there is an overlap with the Sarno thinking |
| Dave |
Posted - 01/13/2005 : 11:06:23
A quick search on craniosacral therapy reveals that it is one of those highly questioned alternative treatment methods. Many feel it is quackery with no basis in real science.
Craniosacral therapy seems to involve manipulation of bones. This is clearly contradictory to TMS. It is also very questionable that this practitioner can actually "measure" the flow and pulse of fluids as he claims.
Regardless of whether or not it has any real theraputic value (and I would highly doubt that it does) this type of therapy involves focusing on the physical, which makes it incompatible with TMS. No doubt you got some relief, but how much of that relief can you attribute to the therapist vs. your own visualizations?
Perhaps the therapist helped you to "open up" and dig deeper into your mind than you were able to do on your own. But to think that it has anything to do with "measuring the flow and pulse of the craniosacral system" is farfetched, to say the least. |
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