| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Wavy Soul |
Posted - 10/12/2009 : 00:49:58
Has anyone looked at the news reports of a new discovery that a virus (also present in prostate cancer) is present in 98% of chronic fatigue sufferers (and very few people without the syndrome).
http://www.itwire.com/content/view/28412/1066/
I found myself having mixed reactions. It's the kind of news that I used to crave, after 30 years of severe CFS and FMS. Knowing about TMS has made me take the whole experience less seriously and it has seemingly alleviated somewhat. But not completely. And the thought that it might just be a damn virus really appeals to me today, feeling like crap, tired of thinking psychologically etc. etc.
Anyone else have any reactions to this news?
Love is the answer, whatever the question |
| 20 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Nor |
Posted - 12/29/2010 : 06:58:00
We're forgetting something vital here. There are physical causes for most TMS symptoms. Sarno explains it simply: He says the mind looks for a weakness or deformity to prey on for distraction. If you have a propensity for something or pre-existing injury/deformity/etc, the psyche will find it. If you treat it medically, the mind will find something else instead. |
| art |
Posted - 12/21/2010 : 19:18:57
I still think it more likely that a physical cause will be found for CFS, but It seems pretty clear at the very least there are certain, let's call them psychogenic illnesses, that don't offer the usual TMS type two way street. In other words, we might be able to think our way in, but we can't necessarily think our way out. Nor can we fight our way out by challenging the symptoms. This seems significant to me if true, and argues that whatever the cause, real physical changes have taken place. To call such an illness psychosomatic would be inaccurate and unhelpful.
I'm interested to know how many CFS'ers have substantially improved on the forum (meaning those who've had years of genuinely crippling fatigue, not just feeling "tired" all the time.
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| alexis |
Posted - 12/21/2010 : 17:57:51
quote:
Originally posted by Dave
What would be interesting is a companion study in people NOT afflicted with CFS symptoms, to see if the virus exists in these people as well.
That study, and all like it that I know of, did use a control group of asymptomatic people and found only a small number with the virus. Most of these published studies follow standard practice which includes these kinds of checks.
The main flaw here being the contamination. |
| Dave |
Posted - 12/21/2010 : 16:18:22
Even if CFS symptoms are due to a virus, it is still the chicken and egg scenario.
Perhaps the virus is common in many people (like h.plyori bacteria blamed for ulcers) but produces symptoms in only a percentage of those cases.
This could be explained by TMS manipulating the immune system in a subtle way so as to allow these organisms to produce symptoms.
What would be interesting is a companion study in people NOT afflicted with CFS symptoms, to see if the virus exists in these people as well. |
| art |
Posted - 12/21/2010 : 11:32:23
I saw this study some months ago myself, and all I can say is I wasn't in the least surprised. Even if the correlation is one of association, it's clear that something in the physical realm is going on. Whether this is replicated by other studies, I'm still guessing eventually they'll find something.
In my experience, CFS is unlike most other reputed psychosomatic illnesses I know about in that fighting the syndrome, challenging it, defying it, doing what's most painful and hard, only makes it worse for the majority of sufferers. I've not known that many with CFS, but they've all been courageous fighters, not the usual self-obessessed TMS'ers like me...
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| alexis |
Posted - 12/20/2010 : 20:05:23
Contaminated samples is a little embarrassing, but I always think of the sheep brain mix-up as one of the research fiascos that kind of puts things in perspective:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/1684696.stm
(ok, that and the "cold fusion" announcement)
I've no idea whether some CFS/ME is caused by a virus...seems likely it has multiple causes. I doubt the suggestion by some thought that TMS would work by allowing viruses in for a distraction - it seems too far between trigger and effect to be evolutionarily likely. And unlike some of the mostre instant and creative distractions we could whip up on the fly, that's something I think would have to evolve over generations. |
| alexis |
Posted - 12/20/2010 : 19:45:12
quote:
Originally posted by Wavy Soul
Has anyone looked at the news reports of a new discovery that a virus (also present in prostate cancer) is present in 98% of chronic fatigue sufferers (and very few people without the syndrome).
http://www.itwire.com/content/view/28412/1066/
This article says that of the 101 CFS sufferes
quote:
The U.S. team found that 68 of them (about 67.3%), tested positive for XMRV genes. That is, they “identified DNA from a human gammaretrovisus, xenotropic murine leukemia virus-related virus (XMRV).”
Was the 98% figure somewhere else? |
| kilton |
Posted - 12/20/2010 : 14:44:26
Heh: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/12/101220091919.htm |
| kilton |
Posted - 02/16/2010 : 16:11:27
And again: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2010/02/100216142328.htm |
| Littlebird |
Posted - 01/15/2010 : 01:03:23
Anyone interested in following XMRV research news can do so at http://www.cfids.org/XMRV/default.asp#info
A discussion regarding differences between the study published in Science and the PLoS One paper that did not find XMRV in CFS patients can be found at http://www.cfids.org/cfidslink/2010/010603.asp
Other CFS research news is also available at http://www.cfids.org/archives/research-review-issues.asp
There is also some CFS research info at http://www.hhv-6foundation.org/hhv6cfs.html and at http://med.stanford.edu/news_releases/2007/january/montoya.html
These two pages make reference to a trial by Dr. Montoya using anti-viral medications to treat CFS. There was significant improvement among patients who originally had a sudden onset of CFS with a flu-like illness.
Although many people seem to view Chronic Fatigue Syndrome and Fibromyalgia as essentially the same, there are differences in the diagnostic criteria, so if you're looking for FMS research you would want to look for an organization that tracks that specific type of research. (In my personal experience with CFS and FMS, I feel they are not the same thing.)
Also, experiencing chronic fatigue does not necessarily mean you have Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, you need to meet the other criteria in addition to having the fatigue. I mention that because I think it would be helpful to readers if people who've had success treating fatigue with Dr. Sarno's method would specify whether you just had chronic fatigue or actually met the diagnostic criteria for Chronic Fatigue Syndrome, as there are many causes of fatigue.
While I've had good success eliminating or controlling most of my Fibromyalgia symptoms, as well as anxiety, using Dr. Sarno's method, I have not had any success whatsoever on my symptoms of chronic fatigue, chronic sore throat and sore lymph nodes, post-exertional malaise, and frequent otherwise-unexplained fevers. I stopped watching the research on CFS and FMS when I first learned of Dr. Sarno and TMS theory, but I've gone back to watching the CFS research since I have not been able to influence those symptoms with mindbody work.
I find it interesting to read the experiences and thoughts of others here, so thanks to everyone for sharing. |
| catspine |
Posted - 01/13/2010 : 14:55:53
Thanks for your input Dave
I agree with what you say about the need for psychology to address depression .
Although I was able to heal twice using Dr Sarno’s theory I still think it’s a miracle somehow (I don’t know what else to call it ) that in regard of the complexity of our physiology a simple thought (if it is the right one at the right time and hits the right target) can turn TMS around. I find that amazingly simple and incredibly complicated at the same time : it can not really be explained it in a truly objective scientific way but at the same time it ‘s been proven that it works well enough to fix the problem .
Because of the different approaches I also used simultaneously or complementary to his method I do believe in what ever works to do the job. Consequently I also believe now that the body knows more than the mind does when it comes to healing ( I can explain that in detail if anyone is interested)and the contribution of the mind is a big asset of course but not always essential as I discovered. Maybe I’ll be lucky many more times as long as I believe it will work again . One thing is for sure there is a mindbody connection and our beliefs are key to healing . if the pharmaceutical industry finds a way that works well to help with this I may consider it and maybe use it but it's not my first choice because of their concerns with profit making .
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| Dave |
Posted - 01/13/2010 : 12:11:50
quote:
Originally posted by catspine
In Sarno's theory TMS is thought to be a defense mechanism so what if it is the immune system itself that creates TMS ? after all isn't the immune system part of the autonomic system and doesn't work on its own to protect us without our conscious intervention ?
This is certainly plausible. Dr. Sarno believes the brain reduces blood flow to areas of the body to induce symptoms. However, I believe this may be too simplistic an explanation, and maybe the immune system is more involved.
quote:
It seems to me that the constant fatigue is a way for the body to tell the conscious mind that the system is overloaded with something and it's time to slow down and get some rest and fix the problem (what ever it may be) while the mind is busy trying to override it like it thinks it can and thus creating a breach in the system a virus can take advantage of easily.
Well, that seems a bit convoluted to me, but you never know. Personally I think chronic fatigue is similar to depression and serves as a distraction. When just want to rest or sleep, there is no risk of the unconscious rage coming to the surface. As with depression, psychological intervention is required for a 'cure' despite the multi-billion dollar industry that serves to treat the symptoms. |
| catspine |
Posted - 01/13/2010 : 05:47:53
Dave
You Wrote :
I believe the immune system is a big target of TMS. The brain may manipulate the immune system in subtle ways to manipulate body chemistry in such a way to introduce symptoms.
Having to deal with this issue at this time it made me wonder:
In Sarno's theory TMS is thought to be a defense mechanism so what if it is the immune system itself that creates TMS ? after all isn't the immune system part of the autonomic system and doesn't work on its own to protect us without our conscious intervention ?
It seems to me that the constant fatigue is a way for the body to tell the conscious mind that the system is overloaded with something and it's time to slow down and get some rest and fix the problem (what ever it may be) while the mind is busy trying to override it like it thinks it can and thus creating a breach in the system a virus can take advantage of easily.
The human body proved to be able to handle a lot of abuse but the worst of them all is definitely self abuse which is a perfect internal conflict for TMS to thrive on and what better choice than fatigue to express it could it find as long as the real cause is not addressed?
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| miche |
Posted - 01/11/2010 : 10:00:35
Food for thought, thank you Dave. |
| Dave |
Posted - 01/11/2010 : 07:04:51
If you allow this research to derail your belief in TMS you are doing yourself a disservice.
Let's assume for a minute the research is 100% correct. What can you do about it? There is no treatment. There is no medicine. So, you're stuck with the virus or autoimmune disorder, right? Treating it as TMS has helped. Should why stop now?
I believe the immune system is a big target of TMS. The brain may manipulate the immune system in subtle ways to manipulate body chemistry in such a way to introduce symptoms. |
| miche |
Posted - 01/10/2010 : 12:51:24
Good point Dave regarding the H.plyori bacteria , my confusion arises from the fact that autoimmune disorders are often triggered by stress combined with the already existing gene , rheumatoid arthritis for example , but once one has such an autoimmune didorder one cannot tms away rheumatoid or lupus for example , so if fibromyalgia is eventually proven to be autoimmune , what then , believe me I so want to think that it's all tms and anxiety , I just cannot get convinced so far , I do believe tms and anxiety are the souce of much chronic pain however .
Anything you have to add will be appreciated, there are times like lately when I feel despair from it all . |
| catspine |
Posted - 01/06/2010 : 20:48:45
I'm aware of the fact that TMS affects everyone differently but is there some kind of a pattern that emerges from the number of patients followed closely by physicians as to how often TMS can suppress the immune system? Thanks |
| Dave |
Posted - 01/06/2010 : 14:54:57
This was bound to happen, just like the H.plyori bacteria was found in some patients with stomach ulcers.
Even if it is true, the issue that these researchers fail to address is whether the chemistry is a cause or effect.
This finding, even if true, does not invalidate the fact that Fibromyalgia is TMS. Who is to say that the antibody is not produced by the brain as part of the mechanism to induce the symptoms? Or that the brain suppresses the immune system in such a way that makes the body more hospitable to this antibody?
Medical research loves to pound their chest when they find something under the microscope. They continue to miss the point. |
| kilton |
Posted - 01/06/2010 : 13:57:40
Well, not surprisingly this study's results have not been able to be replicated. Here's a new one: http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0008519.
"Unlike the study of Lombardi et al., we have failed to detect XMRV or closely related MRV proviral DNA sequences in any sample from CFS cases... Based on our molecular data, we do not share the conviction that XMRV may be a contributory factor in the pathogenesis of CFS, at least in the U.K." |
| catspine |
Posted - 12/29/2009 : 07:00:18
If it were not for Dr Sarno’s and some luck I would probably be still laying in bed or searching for a solution to get operated with a potentially hazardous outcome anyway not to mention that as it turns out none of it was necessary so I know now that his theory and diagnosis are producing positive results and I’m very grateful even if I learned more since then. I recovered successfully from TMS twice already but symptoms imperatives resurfaced over a year ago.
My actual condition includes symptoms very similar to CFS so I explored the subject as a possible reason to my latest problems.
What I found in my case is that it is not impossible for a virus to take advantage of the situation when TMS is at work so I sought medical advice first in a process of elimination without dropping the other options, after all the immune system must be kind of confused somehow especially when it comes to CFS as a symptom imperative of TMS.
According to J.Sarno the brain needs to create a diversion and it will choose the best option available to do so because it must succeed... What this means to me is that if the part of the brain making the decision can increase the efficiency of the distraction by joining a viral infection it will likely use this method first (That is if the virus is present before TMS starts of course) and I ‘m saying this because I’m right in the middle of it at this time and that‘s what seems to be happening. But if TMS is there first then it may weaken the immune system and allow a virus to invade the body. I had to figure this out on my own as I was told by my doctor that I may never know what causes my problems. I’m now making progress towards recovery using these observations and knowledge from personal experience. It may not work with anyone else but I thought it was worth sharing.
In addition to this the subconscious and the autonomic part of the brain know everything your conscious mind does thinks or plans to do so there is really nowhere to hide from it. That makes it very difficult to sort things out until you manage to see through it and deal with it as separate problems. Understanding comes with time and patience can wear out sometimes. After a lot of despair and ups and downs then the TMS part of it become more obvious once the doubts clear up and the problem can be addressed accordingly, the viral part can be left to the experts in the matter. Some of them are very good at what they do and can really help a lot too but I discovered that where I live health care is really basic and questionable and I was better off not to mention anything about TMS to them… Too confusing!
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