| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| scottjmurray |
Posted - 10/03/2009 : 05:15:30
Just some thoughts from tonight:
We all have a mind that has involuntary reactions. These reactions, in my case, are usually a feeling or perception that there is something "wrong" with me or my environment. These blips are accompanied by feelings of emotional pain, distress and TMS symptoms. They pop into my awareness when triggered by something.
It seems to me like my brain repeats these things because it is trying to process them so they no longer cause dysfunction in my life. They are collectively what people refer to as the trait "low self-esteem," or "low self-worth." They can conversely be projected onto my environment, causing the perception that objects and other phenomena are somehow flawed.
I've been aware of these little blips for a while now, but always struggled in dealing with them. I would allow the pain to exist, but it would never dissolve simply by sitting there and experiencing it. I tried expressing my rage and disgust with them, but that frequently just made them more intense because my level of arousal would go up. I also tried going deep into these feelings, where much inner pain and rage at simply "existing" in this state surfaced. This too, however, did not resolve them (they continued to appear).
A lot of people who try to recover from these things use positive affirmations in attempts to reprogram their mind to display positive images in an effort to drown them out. This won't work, and it takes a lot of effort. If you're doing this I'm sure you can feel the tension that accumulates and the frustration in continuing to have to supply yourself with the supposed correct way of thinking.
People with the trait "high self-esteem," in the genuine sense, don't need to talk themselves into feeling good. They don't stand in front of a mirror every morning and tell themselves that they are a good person. They simply have an absence of the kind of thought that makes them feel the emotional pain that we do. These people have effectively learned to process these thoughts.
It's difficult to describe how to process them, because it's not something you can force or instruct your brain to do. You simply allow the thought to pop up, and engage that part of yourself that tries to makes sense of it. If you do this correctly, you will have what I'm calling an "oh moment." You will say to yourself, "oh, that's what's been bothering me" and continue to go about your business.
There are some other directions these things can go. They can go "up" and integrate into your reality, which paints the world in a strange hue that seems to be devoid of hope. They can go "down" which is an effort to push them away. They can also go inward, causing you to feel like a total loser.
The way they need to go is "oh! I see now!" Then they evaporate.
By the way I don't mean to piss all over those of you who do affirmations. It's a valiant effort. However, if you do spend a lot of your day trying to convince yourself that you're a good person or whatever, you're just struggling inside the thought pattern instead of releasing it from your life. You're not really in reality. You're trying to modulate your reality by creating a fantasy.
If anyone can relate to this type of experience, or have a better way to describe what I call "processing," feel free to share in this thread.
~*~
author of tms-recovery . com |
| 20 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Hilary |
Posted - 10/10/2009 : 14:29:41
They simply have an absence of the kind of thought that makes them feel the emotional pain that we do. These people have effectively learned to process these thoughts.
I think these two sentences rather contradict each other. It's impossible to know what kinds of thoughts other people have. It seems to me very likely that everyone has the occasional negative thought, but some people shake them off better than others.
For me, what works is thinking about those low self-esteem thoughts in the same way I think about my obsessive thoughts. I read this in a book somewhere or other and for some reason it really clicked.
What helped me was believing that everyone has weird thoughts - but some people hook on to them. Two different people might have a triggering thought - lets say, a thought about swerving into the other lane of traffic while driving. Person A thinks, "what a weird thought. Now, what's for dinner?". Person B thinks, "what a weird thought. Where did it come from? What does it mean? Am I suicidal and just didn't realise it? What can I do about this? Am I losing my mind? I must be losing my mind!" The body tenses, the mind reacts to the body tensing by looking for a threat and coming up with an answer (yes, you're suicidal/depressed/going insane). And then the thought just gets bigger and bigger.
I think it's likely that the same applies to thoughts related to "low self-esteem". I suspect that many many people have those "I'm rubbish" thoughts. It's just that some people don't have such sticky brains and don't get hooked into trying to provide evidence to themselve that the thought is accurate or otherwise.
Oh, and the other thing that helps is deep guided relaxation. It breaks the downward spiral of mind thinking, body tensing and mind thinking some more in reaction to the body tensing. I'm amazed at how helpful this is. I think what I'm saying is that the "blips" or involuntary emotional reactions you're talking about are a reaction as much to what's happening in the body as in the mind. Jon Kabat-Zinn has done some very interesting work on on this subject. |
| Garth |
Posted - 10/10/2009 : 12:15:34
-How does one believe?
How does one truly believe pain is from the ego/mind? ..... any more/less than one believes all pain is from the body alone?
I was led to believe pain is from disease or an otherwise "problem" with the body from the day I can remember as a child..... and growing up in a strong medical(physical) based belief system. If you have pain .... go see a doctor because there must be something wrong .... something to fix. Surely they would know how to fix it! .. . . or not. . . in that case you were an outcast of sorts..... forsaken.
It was this forsaken feeling that led me to ask the question ...... Is this true? .... Am I truly an outcast because I do not respond to "medical treatment"? To the doctors .... maybe so. But ..... who are the doctors .... are they god? .... do they run the universe? This I can answer no, they are not.
Here I am then .... stuck in the middle. The medical system for which I believed says the pain is from the body. On the other hand ..... many many other people tell a different story. The pain is from my thoughts .....my thoughts from my ego. My ego is but a temporary state in what could be called the illusion of life. Illusion because my form .... while appearing solid ..... is but made of atoms..... and atoms are made of what? Nothing.... no-thing. Life then . . . is but energy, for lack of a better term. Energy that cannot be seen, measured or quantified in any way...... yet . . . we experience it right here .... right now.
Which do I believe? Is it so simple .... so black and white? Maybe I don't know what to believe.... maybe it all sounds like a bunch of nonsense. Will I ever know what is real for myself? Can I speed up the process of choosing what to believe?
Time ..... what is time? Is there truly any time but the here and now? ---- Well no. It's like trying to grasp water ...... the harder I try ..... the less I'll see of it in my hand. -
I have no point to what I have written. It was just in the moment.
I have been thinking much lately of what I believe. Do I really believe pain is from the mind/ego? I do believe though .... that belief is the key. How to change belief . . . .that is a path for which there are infinite entrances and exits. I cannot say.
There is often a point of surrender . . . when "I" or "me" just doesn't work any more. Call it powerlessness ...... some call it "let go and let god" . It's a point where the mind/ego just doesn't work any more . There is no where left to turn . . . but to god-universe-or-whatever.... as there really is no name for it. (The ego is big on names...btw..... I do not let them hinder me.)
Moments of breakthrough often come at these times of Surrender. Ahhh . |
| Garth |
Posted - 10/10/2009 : 11:15:43
quote:
Originally posted by HilaryN
Thanks, Garth. (Still confused as to what the "E" stands for.)
Hilary N
Trauma Releasing Exercises
http://www.traumaprevention.com/
I bought the DVD myself, as I knew it would be something I'd want to see how it was done in person, as opposed to just reading about it or from pictures. . . and my hunch was correct ..... it's really something better seen, in my opinion. |
| Plantweed |
Posted - 10/09/2009 : 07:15:41
Well, maybe some folks have to chip away for a while before the stone breaks, and they wake up one morning and "know." But I grok what you're saying; don't try so hard, just "do." |
| scottjmurray |
Posted - 10/08/2009 : 23:11:37
Alright, alright.
So there's this guy, we'll call him Joe X. Joe X has TMS in his back. He goes on the internet and finds out about Sarno's theories and instantly he sees that there might be a way to make his symptoms stop by "reprogramming" his brain. He affirms to himself several times a day that there is nothing wrong with his back and he can do whatever he wants to now. Despite his efforts, Joe remains plagued by anxiety and pain.
If you were to ask Joe "well, do you believe that there isn't actually anything wrong with you?" he couldn't honestly respond to that question with a "yes." This is because Joe spends his time trying to convince himself of a concept that he doesn't believe in. That's the key, right there, he doesn't believe it and so he feels like he has to convince himself.
To quote Tyler Durden, "sticking feathers up your ass does not make you a chicken." Joe can't embody these concepts in so long as he is battling against his own brain. As soon as Joe knows that there isn't anything wrong with him he will no longer have any problems, because that concept has been evaporated. The same goes with self-esteem issues and whatever other psychological phenomenon happening to be popping up.
What I'm recommending is stop feeding the system in the first place. Admit to yourself whatever you're fighting against and you'll probably be farther along than the rest of the folk who are still in combat with their thoughts.
quote:
and the way I did it was by repeatedly telling myself, "I am not broken," because that was the truth
My question is, if that's really the truth why do you have to say it to yourself? The way out is to realize its nonsense.
~*~
author of tms-recovery . com |
| hottm8oh |
Posted - 10/08/2009 : 14:54:22
quote:
By the way I don't mean to piss all over those of you who do affirmations. It's a valiant effort. However, if you do spend a lot of your day trying to convince yourself that you're a good person or whatever, you're just struggling inside the thought pattern instead of releasing it from your life. You're not really in reality. You're trying to modulate your reality by creating a fantasy.
I think you may be missing the true purpose of self talk. The purpose of self talk, specifically as it applies to TMS, isn't to blow smoke up your own a**. The purpose is to de-program your brain.
I spent 7 years thinking I had a broken body. I had formed a pattern of panicking about the pain and thinking up these worst case scenarios about how bad things were going to get. I had to stop doing that, and the way I did it was by repeatedly telling myself, "I am not broken," because that was the truth. That statement was my reality, not a fantasy. I had spent many years thinking something completely and totally false--that I had "back problems."
Self talk for TMS specifically isn't necessarily about telling yourself that you're a great person, though I'm sure people have used it for that. It's more about convincing yourself that you have no use for the pain anymore. |
| HilaryN |
Posted - 10/08/2009 : 03:52:08
Thanks, Garth. (Still confused as to what the "E" stands for.)
Hilary N |
| Erata |
Posted - 10/06/2009 : 11:58:00
Dear Scott, what you wrote is very interesting to me and brought up some of those metaphysical questions about who and what 'we' all are and what 'should' we be doing, enjoying and feeling during our short lifetime on earth. I mean, is it to be constantly moving back and forth through the past and future, or enslaved by debt and other obligations? (I watched a fascinating video last night about how controlled human beings are, and have been for centuries, and how the brain is conditioned and programmed by outside influences.)
I grapple with self-esteem and personal value and wonder, what does a very young child learn from parents (and others) in relation to self, safety and the world? If all of the ingredients are positive and grounded in reality, then the spring board into life is safe, secure and full of rewards and possibility, hence, high self worth is developed early. But if those early ingredients are negative or dangerous, or just missing, then key components are also damaged or missing. When that happens, maybe trying to develop self-esteem and confidence by re-conditioning through repetitive affirmations, is a little like trying to learn to fly, but without wings. That's probably not a good metaphor, and a therapist could better frame this, but if those components are missing, what then? Maybe one can look inside for different tools and hopefully find unique and creative ways to re-wire or repair broken circuitry and tools. And, when lost, or without hope, stop and observe, like others point out.
I also wonder about, regarding affirmations, how they can work with the constant onslaught of negative messages we're given all the time through advertising and news. I mean, all media, print, video and radio, continually bombard us with pain 'affirmations' because the only way to sell the products is to convince the consumer of ill-health and pain. How is the brain supposed to process this and then not follow orders? How can positive affirmations compete with these constant reminders of pain? And that's just the obvious messages--what about the subliminal? So, easier said than done, of course, but, in addition to looking within, filter, or at least try to limit the messages received from outside......... |
| Plantweed |
Posted - 10/06/2009 : 10:32:48
Nice post Dan. My way of fighting the pain-fear is to do yoga. I started last week. The class (most of which look like ballet dancers) got a kick out of seeing a big 255-lb linebacker-looking dude try and face downward like a dog. BUT, I was doing bends and stretches and moves that I would be petrified to do at home getting ready for work. I also like the mind-body aspect of it, a seeking of balance and inner peace. It kicked my ass physically, but I was sore in that good way, not the TMS way. So, when I'm home and my back clenches up after squatting or mowing the lawn, I can say to myself, that's NOTHING, remember what you did in yoga!  |
| Webdan65 |
Posted - 10/06/2009 : 08:31:44
quote:
Originally posted by scottjmurray
By the way I don't mean to piss all over those of you who do affirmations. It's a valiant effort. However, if you do spend a lot of your day trying to convince yourself that you're a good person or whatever, you're just struggling inside the thought pattern instead of releasing it from your life. You're not really in reality. You're trying to modulate your reality by creating a fantasy.
Scott,
In defense of affirmations or self talk - I am a believer. A huge one.
One could say that feelings of low self esteem are also a fantasy. A really negative one, but still a belief that isn't necessarily true. Low self esteem is nothing more than persistent negative thoughts about ourselves that we have chosen to believe.
Our thoughts make us who we are. Change your thoughts, change your life. Easier said than done, but definitely possible and the best way I know of to change your life.
We all have brains that are conditioned to think a certain way.
Conditioning affects our self image, our money mindset, our beliefs whether we are a procrastinator or someone who gets tons done every day, whether we are good looking, deserve love, etc. etc. etc.
Conditioning comes from what we heard and modeled and experienced from specific incidents. Much of it comes about through our childhood experiences. How our parents talked to us, treated us, treated each other, handled money, etc.
Now, back to TMS. In my experience, I didn't have to resolve the emotional issues that were causing my pain or release them from my life. My affirmations didn't try to convince myself that I was a good person, that my emotions weren't strong or troubling.
Actually, my breakthrough came about after getting away from the journaling and the review of all the negative emotions, etc.
What you focus on magnifies.
While part of TMS treatment must be to get to know what's happening inside your mind and emotions - I totally think focusing on it and journaling for months and months on end leads to a downward spiral of depression. Get the emotions on paper. Identify how they may have caused the TMS symptoms in the first place. Dig deep. Then move on.
How are we TMS'ers conditioned?
* The doctors convince us the pain is physical.
* That we should "be careful"
* That we are frail, broken or weak.
* The media amplifies it.
* Well meaning friends and families add to it. "He's got a bad back" or Don't lift that. Or be careful. UGH
* What we say to ourselves stamps it into our minds like a blueprint.
We need to change our belief about THIS Pain conditioning first and foremost. Resuming physical activity helps to break the conditioning by proving to ourselves that we aren't broken. But resume activity before you have the belief and you could set yourself back.
It all starts with belief.
I didn't use positive self talk to convince myself that I am a good person. I didn't create a fantasy. I used self talk to create my new REALITY that I was healthy and strong and pain free.
For me, the positive self talk affirmed that my body is not frail or broken. It affirmed that I knew TMS was the cause and that I could beat the pain. I affirmed that being crooked didn't hurt me or cause me pain. I affirmed that I was confident I was going to get out of pain and that the negative emotions that were still there - were no longer going to cause me further PHYSICAL pain.
I didn't have to change who I am. I simply used affirmations, declarations and empowering questions to change my belief about my pain. That's it. I didn't over-complicate it by feeling like I had to accept the emotions, or go with them, release them, or allow them to be.
I focused purely on the pain aspect and that overly simplistic approach worked.
I acknowledged that emotional events cause physical events. I reconditioned myself to believe with complete certainty that physically I was fine and that there was no reason for the pain.
And call it fantasy or not - I no longer hurt. I'm exercising, riding bikes, playing golf and even taking my dirt bike over jumps and flying through the air for 10-15 feet. All without pain and fear.
Last fall I couldn't wipe my own rear end without pain.
I'm still as messed up emotionally as I have ever been and have many internal battles about myself, my self worth, etc. The ONLY thing that changed was my belief about the source of my pain and the fact that I didn't have to stay that way.
A parting message:
Thoughts create our feelings
Feelings create our actions
Actions create our results
But what controls our thoughts?
Programming and conditioning (what we believe to be true)
Change the program and you can change your thoughts, feelings, actions and ultimately the results. If you start by changing your actions - you're missing the point. Unless you go back to square one and change your programming - you are fighting an endless battle.
Hope this helps...
Dan
Author of TruthAboutBackPain (dot) com |
| Garth |
Posted - 10/06/2009 : 06:29:09
quote:
Originally posted by HilaryN
What's the "TRE" thread?
Hilary N
http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=5666 |
| HilaryN |
Posted - 10/06/2009 : 06:12:48
Hi Scott,
I didn't really understand your first post, it was a bit over my head.
Have you read The Presence Prcoess?
What you describe in your later post sounds normal when doing psychological work - stuff comes up which feels uncomfortable but it's usually temporary and it's all part of the process.
I think it's worth emphasizing for newbies that there is no "right" way of approaching TMS - everyone's an individual and some things work for some people, other things work for others.
What's the "TRE" thread?
Hilary N |
| scottjmurray |
Posted - 10/06/2009 : 00:34:13
In my defense, the primal scream stuff was an effort in evaporating the ego, which actually works to an extent.
The TRE thread has caught my eye. In one of Eckhart's books he describes the process of his enlightenment as involving his entire body convulsing before he blacked out. Connection? I think so.
~*~
author of tms-recovery . com |
| guej |
Posted - 10/05/2009 : 20:10:55
Hilarious! I forgot about that episode. Of course, I probably saw it "pre-pain", so I didn't give much thought to what George was doing. I'll have to remember that. At the very least, I need to slow down and think a bit more before I speak so I can actually catch myself in the act of people pleasing, etc. Thanks Skizzik. You gave me a good laugh. There really is nothing funnier than Seinfeld. |
| skizzik |
Posted - 10/05/2009 : 17:54:12
hey guej, read the newer one, a new earth or something like that. I think it may have explained a little better what he was trying to say in the first book.
I do feel there was a turning point for me after reading him.
Now I recognize painbodies in people just as I do TMS.
For some reason, I always think of the Seinfeld episode where George decides he's had enough and will do the oppositte of every action he usually does and his life completely changes for the better.
Besides being one of the best episodes and funniest, see how George has to comptiplate what he's about to say, and then think of what the oppositte would be, as if he had to recognize the ego's pattern first, and only then he could be himself. Not only did it eliminate stress in his life, but life stopped walking all over him.
Like when he told the hot blonde that he was bald, has no job and lives at home, she became smitten with him. Normally his ego would have him lie about himself so he would'nt look bad which builds stress, and cover ups etc. But his confidence shined thru with not fiving a fk about what she or others thought and he scores. |
| guej |
Posted - 10/05/2009 : 09:21:17
Thanks Skizzik. I read through Tolle's "The Power of Now" once, and definitely have to go through it again. I got it more by reading your post than the book! I totally understand how brooding over the past, and worrying and thinking incessantly about the future, is what creates all problems, as opposed to living in the "now". I wasn't really getting the ego part, but I'm starting to see it and to catch myself doing all the things you just wrote about. There really is non-stop chatter going on in my head, most of which is completely unproductive! |
| skizzik |
Posted - 10/05/2009 : 07:40:23
quote:
Originally posted by scottjmurray
There are some other directions these things can go. They can go "up" and integrate into your reality, which paints the world in a strange hue that seems to be devoid of hope. They can go "down" which is an effort to push them away. They can also go inward, causing you to feel like a total loser.
The way they need to go is "oh! I see now!" Then they evaporate.
I think thats where I am, or am heading too after years of typical Sarno treatment (journaling etc) that if you can look at your stresses and see how much of it is self imposed you may be able to relieve that pressure valve.
How to do this? According to Tolle, simply notice the ego. Is that your compulsion, or your ego's?
By saying oh, thats just my ego, nutralizes (sp?) the thoughts.
e.g. Why does my parent/spouse/boss drive me crazy? Why don't they appreciate how good they have it with me? I work so hard to please them.
Ahhhh, thats just my ego, the unsatiable force that will make me try to please them to the point that any negative will stress me out.
Now, if I can recognize my ego striving to please them, and say "thats just my ego", ahhhh, I can relax more, and know that I don't have to be perfect, I can go with the flow more, and know that if I'm not trying to please them perfectly they will still be there for me, and afterall human nature means they are going to complain no matter who they're with.
The other thing to do to is try to figure out why your ego pushes you to do the things you do so that it makes sense.
Looking back, for me it was neglect from daddy, a bipolar mother and being put into school with an October birth date (which made me have more in common with the kids the year before me) that built my ego drives. I became a fat kid in sixth to seventh grade. I went thru a growth spurt in high school where I also had to bike everywhere and lost 40 pounds and got 6 inches taller in a short time. I relished in the compliments I was getting to the point where it triggered my ego. It eventually got to the point where what my friends family and co-workers thought of me was more important than the quality time I had with them.
My ego is contstantly striving to be special or amazing at something in order to garner respect or love or something. But, reading thru tolle you'll see that the "painbody" will develop because there is no end to the ego. There is no satisfaction, ever.
Good stuff scott, it's good to see your'e easing up on the primal scream, it was hurting my ears...lol |
| scottjmurray |
Posted - 10/04/2009 : 23:12:07
Thank you, Wavy. Right now it doesn't seem to be happening for me. I'm aware of this bit of me that feels flawed somehow, but it's just kind of sitting there at the moment, stewing. I wonder why it exists. It's peculiar.
A few nights ago I think I might have become aware of it, and that provided some relief. But now it feels unresolved. I am unsure of how to proceed, so I'm not doing anything right now. It feels like something extraneous to my own consciousness, like a being within me. I don't feel dissociated, however.
Life's weird.
I just sent an e-mail to Eckhart Tolle, actually. I believe this phenomena is what he refers to as the "self" or the "ego."
~*~
author of tms-recovery . com |
| Wavy Soul |
Posted - 10/04/2009 : 11:06:08
Yes, Scott, I agree with your "oh" approach.
Recently I've been calling it being neutral and transparent while allowing it all to move...
Love is the answer, whatever the question |
| scottjmurray |
Posted - 10/03/2009 : 17:14:52
It seems to me that the only problem the brain can ever have is not accepting certain bits of information. The rest of the psychological/psychogenic spectrum cascades off of that error.
~*~
author of tms-recovery . com |
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