| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| monta |
Posted - 06/09/2009 : 14:55:58
Hello all forum members !
I'm Noam, 26 years old and I'm new here.
I've been suffring from chronic pain in my hands, elbows and shoulders for the last 4 years.
It all started after I did pull-ups on a bar with only one hand but the pain in my right elbow didn't go away for 3 years, and even got worse from my work as a graphic designer.
but after 3 years, after being un-imployed for half a year, the pain went away.
I've just started reading Sarno's book and it seemed very right for me.
And then, last week, like a curse, I helped lifting one of my friends. I think the weight on my arms was about 25 KG (about 60 LB), and then, the pain in my right elbow came back! I got depressed again and I'm taking unti-depressent drugs nowdays.
Do you the pain source is TMS or maybe it's just golfers elbow?
thanks in advance,
Noam. |
| 14 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| crk |
Posted - 06/12/2009 : 08:33:03
quote:
Originally posted by hsb
CRK-
how could i reach you offline?
thanks
hsb
I sent you a PM. :) C |
| crk |
Posted - 06/12/2009 : 08:30:56
PM'ing you now. |
| monta |
Posted - 06/12/2009 : 07:31:08
Thank you very much CRK !  |
| hsb |
Posted - 06/12/2009 : 06:51:03
CRK-
how could i reach you offline?
thanks
hsb |
| crk |
Posted - 06/11/2009 : 21:28:00
One further thought, HSB. You fear the pain returning, and I understand that fear. In my opinion, it is very important to internalize the fact that if the pain does come back, it comes back because of your life and your thinking, and not because of the running. Hope that helps. Cheers. |
| crk |
Posted - 06/11/2009 : 17:37:38
I'll give you my point of view on these questions...
Yes. Most runners get tms. If every single magazine, coach, forum, running store, and fellow runner is CONSTANTLY talking about injury, referring to injury, thinking about it, coming back from it, avoiding it... well you get the picture. It is far more pervasive (culturally) than back pain or any other tms manifestation, imo. Or maybe I should say "sports injuries" are so. So if talk of running injury is this pervasive, all you need is ONE good repressed emotion and boom. And running itself provides that emotion because of its competitive nature. Even if a runner doesn't enter races, the constant comparisons that must enter his/her mind provide plenty of fodder for self criticism. What's your pace? How far did you go? What gear do you use? On the running forums where I "hang out," I see this over and over again: the happy runner signs up for his/her first race, or the veteran has a goal marathon coming up and suddenly they are in pain.
Well, I'm ranting a bit I think. Here is something else to consider. If running injuries are true physical phenomenon, why don't the few remaining hunter/gatherer tribes on earth --the ones who run many miles each day --why don't they get "injuries?" Their stories appear from time to time in various publications. Their main problem isn't a need for PTs, they just need to be left alone (or their habitat left alone).
You wrote: "Running is definitely hard on the body, the pounding and repetitive motion lends itself to causing soft tissue breakdowns." I believe the scientific evidence proves just the opposite. Using the body for running makes it stronger for running. There is no "pounding," as if we were made of stone. There is only stress and adaptation. The brain will always stop you by means of fatigue before you hurt yourself beyond the sore-muscle stage. (There is a book about this, called something like the Runner's Brain. I'll try to look that up later.) The only exception I can imagine is in cases of severe nutritional deficiency.
Congratulations on your continuing to run. I know from experience how hard that is when it hurts. I will give you my thoughts on this in case it is helpful. As long as you are trying to make the pain leave, it will not leave. When you say to yourself, I am going to run, with pain, for as long as it takes, and I am going to keep running, even with pain-- then you may start to see some of its hold on you lessened (painfree moments, less pain, etc.). But the key will be to move your attention to your life and what is going on and how to reframe it psychologically.
So you know that X is bothering you and you've journaled about Y and Z, and you are trying to ignore the pain. Let's see (calculator clicking)... negative, negative, negative. I bless Sarno with all my heart, but he leaves us there, or he is expecting a therapist to take it further. I don't have a therapist.
What I've found is that my message center needs a complete overhaul, and I can do it. At first I wrote the new messages out and read them a couple of times a day. Then I put them on my iPod. These messages are positive opposites of the messages that sabotage me. The latter come from misinterpreting all the garbage that my subconscious is trying to hide from me. EG: negative message = "you have no power and most of what you try to do will not succeed;" positive counter message = "today, right now, I have the ability to give myself the gift of determination, self assurance, and non stop confidence in myself."
About half of my messages are taken from the book What to Say When You Talk To Yourself, and the others are messages I wrote to combat particular problems.
I'm very tired (up since 4) so I hope this makes sense and is helpful. I have a habit of going on and on but I'll stop here. Best to you! |
| hsb |
Posted - 06/11/2009 : 10:24:32
CRK:
Thanks for your lengthy response. I very much respect your opinion so please do not apologize.
It is very difficult to get away from the mindset of running injuries. I do believe in sarno and tension induced pains and injuries but sometimes I do have a hard time “believing” or reconciling running pains into not being real. Running is definitely hard on the body, the pounding and repetitive motion lends itself to causing soft tissue breakdowns. I know that is the “establishment” belief. It is just so very difficult to get that mindset out of my brain. I do agree that all the running mags and the websites perpetuate ITB, Achilles, PFS, etc. why is it then that so many runners suffer from these aches and pains? That I cannot answer – do most runners have TMS?
I have had every “running injury” in the book. My biggest obstacle is deciding whether to take time off from running when I start hurting – to try to discern if something is real or not. I have been on a streak of almost one year of continuous running and I DO NOT want to make ANOTHER comeback, i.e. take 3 months off because of an injury and then start from scratch again and lose all my fitness. That is a though that becomes a tape loop with me.
So I have had hip/glute/ITB pain for almost 2 months now. I have taken one week off from running to see if things would improve. I would say not really. (though sometimes the thoughts of “maybe I should take more time off creep in!”) So I jumped back in and am going to see if I can “sarnoize” this; try to not think it’s real, to keep my thoughts positive, to don’t give these negative thoughts weight, etc. and try to continue my streak of continuous running. It’s a battle.
Thanks
hsb
|
| crk |
Posted - 06/11/2009 : 10:05:14
quote:
Originally posted by hsb
... does that mean you stop running and rest for weeks, days or what? a running injury is not really like a broken bone, bullet wound - do you think? how do you discern the difference?
thanks
Hi HSB,
If you will please forgive my strong opinions, I believe with all my heart that most running injuries are CRAP. I know you may have a different opinion, and I will respect that. I can only speak for myself. I get my opinions mostly from Sarno, from my own experiences with tms in the past 7 years, and from my conviction that humans are born to run the way cats are born to stretch -- it is our natural and proper movement. So, I feel very confident that all these chronic pain conditions that runners get are b.s. I simply have no reason to think otherwise.
The last time I actually started to believe in a running injury and had to use my litmus test was some shin pain last year. I thought maybe I had "pulled something," in spite of the fact that I agree with Sarno's dismissal of this sort of pain (described in Healing Back Pain). Something made me think there really could be something wrong. So I took 2 days off. The pain was equal if not greater on the 3rd day, and that is when I was able to embrace the tms diagnosis and say "aha." The pain immediately jumped into my knee. Then "aha" turned into "haha" -- when the sucker moves the game is up.
I would say that a REAL running injury IS like those others I mentioned. But they are not the injuries most people refer to, and that the running magazines love to promote (as I see it, they do promote injury). Rolling your ankle and having it appear bruised and swollen, for example, is real. You can see it healing. I don't believe in tendonitis, bad knees, plantar fascitis, shin splints, IT band syndrome.... the list goes on and on. I believe in bruises, sore muscles, blisters, bunions, and chafing. So I guess in that sense I have had running injuries: sore muscles and chafing. lol But never the Culture of Injury's injuries.
These diagnoses are inevitable, from an industry that thrives on them and that cannot offer any other path, good intentions notwithstanding. If you go to a PT or sports doc with pain, he/she HAS to put some label on it. He/she HAS to fit it into a box that you and he/she can understand. They CANNOT consider psychosomatic causes. Think about that. They CANNOT consider anything but a physical cause. And there are THOUSANDS of them out there, perpetuating the myth -- and how many of us? Very few! It's like trying to get an 18th century physician to give up leeches. That is why I still come to this site, to make sure I add my voice.
How are things going for you these days? I hope you are well and running. :) |
| hsb |
Posted - 06/11/2009 : 07:03:08
CRK-
you wrote: Main test: does it heal with rest? I'm not talking about the pain stopping when you stop your activity. I mean does it act like a bullet wound, a broken bone, a paper cut --like ANY other true injury? Does it heal at all?
does that mean you stop running and rest for weeks, days or what? a running injury is not really like a broken bone, bullet wound - do you think? how do you discern the difference?
thanks
|
| crk |
Posted - 06/10/2009 : 13:37:29
quote:
Originally posted by monta
....the pain came back from quite an aggresive movement (I think it's aggressive for me because it's about 20-25 KG and because of the last years with the pain I'm quite weak) so maybe it's not TMS? how would I know? ...
Noam.
Noam,
Although TMS is a pretty good liar, there will always be signs. As a runner, I have worried this exact same thing: what if I'm wrong and I run on it and get hurt worse? My litmus tests (below) have never failed me yet. (And I have never had a legitimate running injury either! We're born to move!) Here goes...
- Main test: does it heal with rest? I'm not talking about the pain stopping when you stop your activity. I mean does it act like a bullet wound, a broken bone, a paper cut --like ANY other true injury? Does it heal at all?
- Does the pain move?
- Does the pain flare when thinking certain thoughts? Does it flare up when you come on this forum and think about it more intently?
- Does the pain go away when you are engaged in a positive conversation or a very pleasant experience?
- Are there any physical symptoms besides pain? Redness? Swelling? TMS looooooves to pop up in places where you think you might not be able to see evidence of injury so watch out.
- Does the pain flare at illogical times? For example, a running pain would be completely absent while I'm doing hard track intervals, fine afterwards too, but then I'm jogging back home easily and I suddenly see another runner coming towards me (open the spout for self-doubt, low self-esteem, performance anxiety, etc.) and yowch! Gotcha, tms.
Hope this helps. Best wishes!! |
| monta |
Posted - 06/10/2009 : 06:26:38
Wow, thanks a lot guys!
It's so good have so many replies in such a short term and on such an important issue...
I'll do as you suggest and continue reading Sarno's book, but the thing is that I got the general picture from the first part of Sarno's book and although I want to believe in it, I'm not sure I'll succeed, but I'll just try more and more I guess....
One other thing, about the elbow- I had chronic pain but it vanished a year ago, and the pain came back from quite an aggresive movement (I think it's aggressive for me because it's about 20-25 KG and because of the last years with the pain I'm quite weak) so maybe it's not TMS? how would I know? i'm afraid that if it's inflammation and I wont treat it I'll cause more pain and again chronic pain for years.
I did see one ortophedic doctor who checked me and said it's nothing serious.
Thanks again,
Noam. |
| HilaryN |
Posted - 06/10/2009 : 05:06:11
Hi Noam,
Welcome to the forum!
There are a couple of Success Stories here for starters:
http: //tmswiki.wetpaint.com/page/Elbow+Pain
If you find more, please do add them to the list, as we are still working on these, but need more people to help us.
There's a list of RSI Success Stories here:
http: //tmswiki.wetpaint.com/page/Repetitive+Strain+Injuries+-+RSI
Also, if you're interested in chatting to other TMS-ers, including people who have recovered, we'll be holding a session at the end of June:
http: //tmswiki.wetpaint.com/page/The+TMS+Wiki%27s+tour+and+meetup
Hilary N |
| crk |
Posted - 06/09/2009 : 21:17:12
I second Sarita's comments. Pain that lasts as long as yours has definitely sounds like TMS. And once you establish that you are susceptible to TMS, you have to treat every chronic pain as suspect, in my opinion. I got rid of my 7 years of back pain, but ever since that my brain has tried other stuff on me, always using a pain that "makes sense" in terms of what physical stuff I've been doing. After a few days I realize I've been duped again and get rid of it using Sarno's plan. I know it isn't "healing" (ie physical repair) because during the Sarno process the pain flares and dies wildly in response to psychological work.
Good luck! Read the other threads here - there is some great stuff. |
| sarita |
Posted - 06/09/2009 : 15:58:39
hi noam,
do read all you can find about RSI-TMS on this website.
when you were unemployed, the pain went away. big hint there. being unemployed is ****ty BUT it does take some kind of pressure away, maybe one you aren't entirely conscious of.
i am a musician and have similar stuff going on, although much improved. the thing is, when things are so chronic, we feed them constantly by paying attention to them. its very hard to break this cycle. we literary become obsessed with it. we dread it, hate it, curse it, it drives us into despair, we fight it---we give it a life.
why don't you give the sarno approach a REAL try? in his book the divided mind he clearly lines out the program. also, some of the info on this web site is priceless.
i took this drugs too. everybody should do what they think is right. bring HOPE into the picture! if you are only taking them for the depression your arm pain gives you, i say...dont bother. go straight to the arm pain, and to the source of it.
i think sarno is so right...chronic pain in a healthy 26 year old boy, years of it. what can it be if not psychosomatic? |
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