| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| mseymour88 |
Posted - 03/13/2009 : 10:18:02
Hi Everyone
I am new here.
My story is long, I will condense it.
20 yrs + lower back pain after fall, lots of Doc's, fusion scheduled twice, I backed out(I like that pun), much depression, tried everything under sun, almost went to Germany for artificial disc and on and on, many probably know the drill.
Recently saw Sarno and he diagnosed me with TMS. I identify with all of it. The personality, the childhood rage,the stress of today.
I have followed his program intensly for a couple of months now.
Some relief.
Here is my question for you guys and girls.
I am having the hardest time convincing myself that my problem is not structural at all.
I can buy that the TMS is a factor in the pain, but not the whole thing.
I have seen my MRI and the pain always gets worse with physical activity. I know Sarno believes this is conditioning. How do I belive it? At this moment, my intuition believes it is structural.
Any feedback?
Thanks so much
Mike |
| 14 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| mk6283 |
Posted - 03/23/2009 : 16:18:22
One more thing. I recently posted this in a related thread:
Some possible explanations for refractory cases of TMS:
(1) Inability to believe and accept the diagnosis at its core;
(2) Emotional trauma that, perhaps, is far too deeply rooted;
(3) Misdiagnosis. Are you sure that you have TMS?
If #2 is the reason why you aren't getting better, then Dr. Schubiner's course, psychotherapy, etc. can probably help. However, if #1 and/or #3 are the reason(s) why you are not getting better, then the extra work will probably NOT help.
In your case, Michael, I would probably attribute your lingering pain to #1. I hope we are helping you to further accept and believe the diagnosis. You cannot expect to see any results until you are fully able to do that. If the pain were to linger beyond that point, then #2 may also be contributory and you could then attempt to tackle that. Good luck!
Best,
MK |
| mk6283 |
Posted - 03/23/2009 : 16:07:45
quote:
Originally posted by mseymour88
Any suggestions MK?quote:
Originally posted by mseymour88
quote:
Originally posted by mseymour88
Hi MK
You got it. L-4,/ L-5 L-5/ S-1. Degenerative disc desease
I have tingling in my feet at times
Mikequote:
Originally posted by mk6283
What did the MRI show? Let me guess, degenerative disc disease and herniations at L4/L5 and/or L5/S1 (the so-called "gray hairs of the spine")? Do you have any neurological deficits whatsoever, i.e., any weakness, numbness, tingling, and/or rigidity anywhere?
Best,
MK
My suggestion? Dr. Sarno has already diagnosed you with TMS. I find it amusing that people come here to seek opinions on whether or not they actually have TMS after the man who coined the term already told them they have it!!! Its like seeking a second opinion after being diagnosed with Chrohn's Disease by Dr. Chrohn. However, if it makes you more confident in the diagnosis knowing that I wholeheartedly agree with him given the information you have provided us with, well then I'm flattered. A better question is would I ever allow a scalpel in the SAME ROOM as my back if I was in your situation? The answer is ABSOLUTELY NOT!!! So now that we have ruled out surgery, I know of no more promising approach towards a cure for chronic back pain than that of Dr. Sarno's. So if I were you, I would just get to work and LET GO of all your fears once and for all. Good luck!
Best,
MK |
| Capn Spanky |
Posted - 03/23/2009 : 12:26:12
You might want to hold off on the skating for a while since that seems to be a trigger. My bet is you eventually will be able to do it without limitation. |
| mseymour88 |
Posted - 03/23/2009 : 09:33:26
Thanks so much Capn Spanky
As dumb as this may be,
I geuss the two things my mind is holding onto for doubt are:
1) He didn't look ay my MRI(just read the report)
2) I have always remained active, most specifically, ice skating, and it seemed to be that I was damaging the discs as I kept it up.
Every time I skated, I would hurt for weeks.
After seeing Sarno, I was having some relief, and skated again, as suggested to get back to activity, and the pain returned full force.
Conditioning, right?
I do know I have to dismiss all this to recover, but I think it helps getting it out here, withyou guys.
Bear with me.
Thanks
Mike
quote:
Originally posted by Capn Spanky
mseymour88, to me you have touched on the heart of the matter, BELEIVING. In my opinion, it is the key to recovery. When I equivocated I stayed in pain. Just like you, I thought part of my pain may be TMS and part of it may be structural.
I got to the point where I was so frustrated with my lack of improvement I thought... this is just ridiculous! I went about the business of convincing my mind that there was nothing wrong with me. My approach was probably similar to someone who finds a new religion. I became a religious zealot! I told myself over and over "there is absolutely nothing wrong with me", "my elbows/back/whatever are strong and healthy", "I truly believe this with all my heart." Believe, believe, believe! Faith, faith, faith!
I stopped taking all pain medicines (this was extremely scary) and incredibly the pain went away! Maybe everyone has to get to a certain point before they're ready to surrender themselves to Dr. Sarno  . It seems to me that you're asking the right questions and I think that's a very positive sign!
Like you I had L5 degenerative disk disease which gave me disabling sciatica for over 20 years. I also had a very frustrating bout with tennis elbow that lasted about two years. As I said, in both cases the pain is now miraculously gone and the credit goes to Dr. Sarno.
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| Capn Spanky |
Posted - 03/23/2009 : 08:38:47
mseymour88, to me you have touched on the heart of the matter, BELEIVING. In my opinion, it is the key to recovery. When I equivocated I stayed in pain. Just like you, I thought part of my pain may be TMS and part of it may be structural.
I got to the point where I was so frustrated with my lack of improvement I thought... this is just ridiculous! I went about the business of convincing my mind that there was nothing wrong with me. My approach was probably similar to someone who finds a new religion. I became a religious zealot! I told myself over and over "there is absolutely nothing wrong with me", "my elbows/back/whatever are strong and healthy", "I truly believe this with all my heart." Believe, believe, believe! Faith, faith, faith!
I stopped taking all pain medicines (this was extremely scary) and incredibly the pain went away! Maybe everyone has to get to a certain point before they're ready to surrender themselves to Dr. Sarno . It seems to me that you're asking the right questions and I think that's a very positive sign!
Like you I had L5 degenerative disk disease which gave me disabling sciatica for over 20 years. I also had a very frustrating bout with tennis elbow that lasted about two years. As I said, in both cases the pain is now miraculously gone and the credit goes to Dr. Sarno. |
| mseymour88 |
Posted - 03/23/2009 : 07:15:00
Any suggestions MK?quote:
Originally posted by mseymour88
quote:
Originally posted by mseymour88
Hi MK
You got it. L-4,/ L-5 L-5/ S-1. Degenerative disc desease
I have tingling in my feet at times
Mikequote:
Originally posted by mk6283
What did the MRI show? Let me guess, degenerative disc disease and herniations at L4/L5 and/or L5/S1 (the so-called "gray hairs of the spine")? Do you have any neurological deficits whatsoever, i.e., any weakness, numbness, tingling, and/or rigidity anywhere?
Best,
MK
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| mseymour88 |
Posted - 03/19/2009 : 08:53:42
quote:
Originally posted by mseymour88
Hi MK
You got it. L-4,/ L-5 L-5/ S-1. Degenerative disc desease
I have tingling in my feet at times
Mikequote:
Originally posted by mk6283
What did the MRI show? Let me guess, degenerative disc disease and herniations at L4/L5 and/or L5/S1 (the so-called "gray hairs of the spine")? Do you have any neurological deficits whatsoever, i.e., any weakness, numbness, tingling, and/or rigidity anywhere?
Best,
MK
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| scottjmurray |
Posted - 03/16/2009 : 11:39:30
Its up to you whether or not you believe in something. There's no way to force yourself to believe in TMS. Either you go with what your doctor's say or you turn your back to them (lol). Usually one gets an "aha!" moment where they realize how silly it would be for their problem to be structural in nature.
You can get there by researching TMS. Read books, websites, etc. Also what I did in the very, very beginning was keep track of any inconsistencies in the nature of my pain. I built a "case" against the structural diagnoses I had been given. For instance, I used to have pain when sitting. Well, one day I realized I had been sitting down for quite some time without a flare up, so I learned that had only been conditioned. I'd been distracted by what I was doing and so my brain had not initiated my symptoms. If it was structural in nature, I would've had pain with sitting no matter how distracted I was.
Every little inconsistency is a case against the structural diagnosis. When I hyperextended my knee a few years ago skateboarding, it didn't suddenly get better when I wasn't thinking about it. My knee was an effing balloon for two months and I couldn't bend the damn thing. That is a structural problem. Not nebulous shifting pain syndromes like back pain. By the way, my knee healed itself, why can't your back?
~*~
author of tms-recovery . com |
| mseymour88 |
Posted - 03/16/2009 : 11:29:17
Hi MK
You got it. L-4,/ L-5 L-5/ S-1. Degenerative disc desease
I have tingling in my feet at times
Mikequote:
Originally posted by mk6283
What did the MRI show? Let me guess, degenerative disc disease and herniations at L4/L5 and/or L5/S1 (the so-called "gray hairs of the spine")? Do you have any neurological deficits whatsoever, i.e., any weakness, numbness, tingling, and/or rigidity anywhere?
Best,
MK
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| Northerner |
Posted - 03/15/2009 : 18:16:38
I'm in the same boat you are at times, thinking that this must be structural. I keep seeing the nerve in my neck at the c6 c7 level that my MRI indicated is undergoing mild compression.
Since Sarno diagnosed you, it is safe that you resume normal physical activity. Don't let fear stop you from doing anything. I play basketball, drive, sit, type, do kayak eskimo rolls, paddle a kayak hard, downhill ski, lift things and do anything else physical that I want. All of these things would have caused a lot of pain when I first had a recurrence of TMS after Thanksgiving. Some of these activities caused pain after I resumed doing them. Some still do, to a minor degree. But I don't let them get in my way.
If you're not exercising regularly, start exercising, gradually, of course. That's great for your mind and your body.
I am an old man and have known a great many troubles, but most of them never happened.
- Mark Twain |
| mk6283 |
Posted - 03/15/2009 : 08:49:40
What did the MRI show? Let me guess, degenerative disc disease and herniations at L4/L5 and/or L5/S1 (the so-called "gray hairs of the spine")? Do you have any neurological deficits whatsoever, i.e., any weakness, numbness, tingling, and/or rigidity anywhere?
Best,
MK |
| Peg |
Posted - 03/15/2009 : 05:58:22
Hi Mike,
This is a stumbling block to recovery, but perfectly understandable. Perhaps you need more proof. I was like that for quite a while after learning about TMS.
After all of the mis-information we have been fed from the medical community, well meaning friends, the media, etc, it's not surprising that this theory is hard to believe. Even Dr. Sarno, in one of his books admits that it may sound like "fanciful thinking", but it works. The fact that his patients began to recover (some after 20-30 yrs of back pain, and multiple failed surgeries) after learning about what Dr. Sarno believed was causing their pain, meant that the diagnosis was correct!
I needed to read and re-read Dr. Sarno's books. Eventually, watching his video helped as well. You see, I am a "Book Cure", never having seen a TMS Doc. I applied the information to my life and had gradual improvement. What also helped me, was reading other books having to do with the mindbody connection. All of them supported Dr. Sarno's theory. I have also done some research in the medical journals and guess what? The studies do not show the current standard treatments used in back pain, to be effective. That means that they are not addressing the cause! There are also studies that show "positive" findings on MRI (herniated disc, bulging disc, degenerative disc disease, arthritis, spinal stenosis, etc) in people with NO back pain. That tells us that those findings are not the cause of the pain. There are also studies that show the psychosocial factors are more predictive than physical factors of who will develop back pain. The TMS doctors are having a high rate of success treating with the mind body approach, this tells us that the diagnosis is correct.
My success story is on the forum if you're interested. I had 10 years of upper back and neck pain. I tried all kinds of treatments and only found temporary relief if any. I became almost totally debilitated and was in a pretty bad way. I accidentally found Dr. Sarno's book and this information is the only thing that finally helped me to recover and get my life back. That was 9 years ago and I'm able to do anything I want physically. Do I still get the occasional twinge or tightness? Sure, but now I have the knowledge, and as soon as I address the emotional cause (be it stress, anger, sadness, fear, etc), the symptoms resolve.
I am a nurse and I have to tell you, throughout my education, training and clinical experience, this information is the most valuable, empowering, and life changing that I have ever come across.
There is a list of books on this site and an extensive list of books and other resources on tmswiki. wetpaint. com that have been helpful to people working to apply this theory to their lives. Also, if you haven't already, you might want to check out Dr. Howard Schubiner's very informative web site (your pain is real.com), he's one of the two dozen TMS physicians in the US.
Become like a detective, the evidence is overwhelming. It doesn't make sense that a supposed problem with a disc (made of a jelly like substance) could cause such excruciating and long term pain. Remember what Dr. Sarno points out, the largest bone in the body (the femur), when broken, heals in 6 weeks. Our bodies are strong and have an amazing capacity to heal if we let them and if we don't worry ourselves into such a state that our autonomic nervous system goes into overdrive, causing the release of chemicals which causes the constriction of the blood vessels, reducing the oxygen going to the muscles, nerves, tendons and ligaments, etc. This is what has caused our pain. A very painful, but benign and reversible process.
Best,
Peg
In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei |
| Bobbypols |
Posted - 03/13/2009 : 18:15:50
Whatever you do, dont give up. If Sarno has diagnosed you its a sure bet. Stick with it, i have been at it for 5 months and there were times where the pain was greatest then ever before, but there was times where I have never felt better. Currently, im getting to the point where there is more good days then bad.
Inregards to believing whether the pain is not structural...how do you teach someone to believe in god? You cant. You just believe in it if you want to, you have to want to. |
| positivevibes |
Posted - 03/13/2009 : 12:55:56
It is easy to get "stuck in a loop" between thinking it's structural and that it's all TMS. You have to try your hardest to erase all doubt and totally "give yourself over" to the TMS diagnosis. Tell your mind that you will revisit the "structural" diagnosis in a number of months. Give TMS treatment your full attention. Every time the doubt arises, tell your mind that you are not going down that path right now....that you are involved in THIS treatment and need to give THIS treatment a fair chance.
So as not to dwell on the "structural vs TMS loop," get involved in some other activity to distract you for a while (20-30 minutes or more).
Also, you need to actively work on your emotional issues. When you begin to work those out (face them with total honesty) things will begin to change.
Remind yourself that it's the emotional issues that are causing your pain. Stay focused on the emotional, not the physical. Don't let your doubt lead you astray. And don't beat yourself up if you find it hard. Losing the doubt is indeed one of the hardest parts of the process. |
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