| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| johnaccardi |
Posted - 09/20/2008 : 15:44:14
I have been really into the TMS work now for 10 days. I haven't seen any change in symptoms but expect to soon since most people in "The Divided Mind" seem to take about a month or 2 to heal.
I'm curious as to how the symptoms fade away. I noticed Sarno did say the pain should decrease and then one should try to return to normal activity as soon as possible to speed complete recovery. Does this mean I could constantly think about the symptom and actually notice it improving? |
| 20 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| pandamonium |
Posted - 09/28/2008 : 14:24:06
John you say that your mouth goes dry when you kiss a girl or drink alcohol. This is conditioning; you expect it so it happens. For me fear and conditioning are the 2 worst culprits for producing back pain. When I can see that my conditioning has kicked in I have a stiff talk with myself and can often avert a fully fledged attack.
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| Dave |
Posted - 09/28/2008 : 09:42:07
quote:
Originally posted by johnaccardi
When I drink alcohol or kiss a girl my mouth goes completely dry. I mean it's absolutely terrible. It really brings my thoughts back to my problem and makes me catastrophize. Now, for the question. Do I do these things and put my mind on the problem, or do I avoid these things so I can more so "forget" about the problem.
If you accept the dry mouth as a TMS symptom then you need to ignore it and go about your life.
The fact that you "catasrophize" means this symptom still has a firm grasp on you, and as long as it does, the symptom will persist because it is serving its purpose.
It is a self-fulfilling prophecy, a conditioned response. You expect the dry mouth to occur in these situations so it does. Until you can laugh it off and say "a ha, I know exactly what you're trying to do and I'm not going to let it get to me" then you have to keep doing the work. |
| johnaccardi |
Posted - 09/27/2008 : 16:56:29
Quick question here...
When I drink alcohol or kiss a girl my mouth goes completely dry. I mean it's absolutely terrible. It really brings my thoughts back to my problem and makes me catastrophize. Now, for the question. Do I do these things and put my mind on the problem, or do I avoid these things so I can more so "forget" about the problem.
The problem with not doing these things is I feel "left out" I feel "held back." But the problem with doing them is I always have the worst reaction of symptoms and It devastates me for like the entire week because It kills me not to be able to do these things without the symptom taking over.
It's funny because in college girls and beer are what guys care about and TMS is really messing with me here.
Thanks for the advice. |
| crk |
Posted - 09/24/2008 : 19:58:18
I just posted some of my methods on the success stories forum under "it's leaving -- again." I hope you'll find it helpful. I have enjoyed this thread very much. :) |
| LuvtoSew |
Posted - 09/24/2008 : 14:43:55
johnaccardi-"The more we can realize that this "perfect life" will never come, the more ahppy we can be"
That is very true, your young to be realizing that. Seems to me there are quite a few young people on here. I believe happiness is
a choice you make, not something that happens to you, life is full of ups and downs, good times and bad times come and go.
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| johnaccardi |
Posted - 09/23/2008 : 20:25:48
Even though I'm only 19 I can relate to this always dreaming for better. Dreaming of the day when I would be happy and peaceful, the day when everything would always go my way, and living life would be like a movie. I remember when I was young I looked forward to college being this way, and TMS really hit me when I got to college because these great things just weren't happening. I really appreciate you guys sharing your thoughts on this subject, I can learn a lot from all of you. The more we can realize that this "perfect life" will never come, the more ahppy we can be. |
| Effie |
Posted - 09/23/2008 : 14:57:20
quote:
Originally posted by Pd245
When I was a kid I read a lot and dreamed and a lot and imagined some amazing future as an adult where I would have arrived to permanent happiness. I did this through my 20's and 30's, too . . . So, I'm almost 40 now and have finally realized that life isn't like the movies or books -- But when you're nearing 40 or 50 you realize you're "there," . . . there's no pretending anymore, and you don't have lots of time to do the things you want to do, or the things you think you've wanted to do.
pd245 -- that is EXACTLY what I've felt . . . you said it so well . . . I believe that, plus turning 50, was one of my biggest TMS triggers. |
| winnieboo |
Posted - 09/23/2008 : 13:35:28
Abadonment and loss are big issues for all of us I think, TMS or not. |
| Shamrock |
Posted - 09/23/2008 : 13:10:08
I'll chime in.
I'm in my 4th week on dedicated Sarno work. I'm trying not to "watch the clock" but it's tough. It's also hard because I sometimes assume I'll be one of the ones who needs therapy. (I've done my share.) Gotta focus on the "now."
Earlier I reviewed my journals from the past 3 years. 2005 was when the back pain first hit and stuck for like 1-1/2 years. It's interesting that I had pain 4 months before that, and when I heard it was "just a muscle pull" the pain was gone within 2 weeks. As soon as my fear faded, so did the pain.
The prolonged pain came after my MRI "bulging disc" diagnosis and failed physical therapy, steroid injections, etc. In my journal back then, I wrote, "this may be TMS" after reading Sarno. I didn't approach the treatment seriously, tough.
Interestingly, I also had 2 episodes of back pain earlier this year, both around emotional incidents, and both resolved within 2 weeks. I think it was more acute emotional incidents which I got past quickly, hence the quick pain resolution. I just put the pain out of my mind. didn't even consider TMS at the time.
This time I still have the pain after 2 months. The emotional stuff I've been going through now is more related to core issues (fear of abandonment, perfectionism, etc.) from multiple sources (job and failed personal relationship.) My uncomscious doesn't want to give up the pain... YET!
I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's important to focus on the cause (emotional) and give yourself the time you need to recover. And don't underestimate the power of just telling the pain, "whatever!"
In the spirit recovery programs, I'll throw out some catch phrase that have helped me with other stuff in the past (sorry for any 12-step hijacking)...
Time takes time. (Sounds like a duh statement, but people forget it often.)
Change your entire view of FEAR. Go from F@#$ Everything And Run to Face Everything And Recover.
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| Pd245 |
Posted - 09/23/2008 : 13:06:42
I can so relate to the dream that there's some "better" you that is waiting to be born, "if only..." When I was a kid I read a lot and dreamed and a lot and imagined some amazing future as an adult where I would have arrived to permanent happiness. I did this through my 20's and 30's, too, I either procrastinated doing things I wanted to do or had issues that prevented me from living to my potential - which would be amazing, of course. Wow! That's a lot of pressure. So, I'm almost 40 now and have finally realized that life isn't like the movies or books - you don't become anything permanently. Happiness and sadness and joy and irritation - all of it comes and goes. You're never going to be happily ever after filled with joy every day when you finally become an adult ( I'm a little late getting there). It's a deeply sad thing to realize, and it's something I'm definitely grieving about while doing my TMS work. A part of me knew this all along, though, and I didn't want to ever admit it, so the pain and procrastination and constant dreaming held it at bay. But when you're nearing 40 or 50 you realize you're "there," you're an adult, there's no pretending anymore, and you don't have lots of time to do the things you want to do, or the things you think you've wanted to do. |
| johnaccardi |
Posted - 09/23/2008 : 11:43:13
Thanks winniepoo,
Your response here is very comforting. You know I can really relate to your problems. Recently, through journaling, I have discovered that I also need this complete control. I am the oldest child of my family and I need total control over my siblings. Going away to college definately took some of this control as they are slowly growing closer without me. When I go home and see this, it doesn't feel good. I'm now realizing it's things like this that are making these symptoms. I also need this same kind of control over friends, I need to be the leader of the group, the coolest one and the most liked one. I also have recently realized that I'm not perfect. We can all say, "i'm not perfect" but deep down inside we think we are. I thought I was because I thought tyhat without this symptom I could do this and that, and the only thing holding me back was the symptom. This is how my brain kept me from realizing the truth. I think this is a big, important step for anyone with TMS. We aren't any better with or without the symptom...we are who we are, and that certainly isn't perfect, or isn't the best. It's important to realize that life won't be this amazing place when the symptom goes away. There will still be problems, I'll still feel like ****...alot, and when these things are genuinly realized the symptoms can go away. Because it's departure doesn't have to live up to more expectations. |
| winnieboo |
Posted - 09/23/2008 : 09:58:29
John and Mely,
First, let me say again, everyone's journey is different, and I pray that we all have patience. It took me a year to come out of my pain. I was freaking out after two months because "Sarno said" that was possible. But look on the bright side John, you are so young! I am 48 and have suffered with all kinds of ailments all this time. You will recover and have a happy life. Your symptoms WILL GO AWAY!
So I've been thinking about this thread and what it took for me, and I started to write this long chronological thing, but I decided to stick with a more conceptual answer for you: First, I think the phrase "letting go" is not a little phrase. It's a huge concept and very difficult to grab hold of. Until I was able to let go, hearing someone say "you've got to let go!" felt insulting and disorienting. The words are a huge oversimplification.
For me the TMS journey has been about coming out of DENIAL. I came out of the pain when I faced that I wasn't perfect. Plain and simple. It's the single-most SCARY and SHOCKING thing I've had to look at in my entire 40-some years. It sounds ridiculous writing it!
That's an oversimplification, too, but it just about covers everything I've done in therapy for the last 10 months (and with other therapists who came before that). I'm sure I'll have to work for some time now on forgiving myself for not being perfect, but that is my own twisted issue, not necesssarily anyone else's.
But the "perfect" thing cuts through the entire my story line and all my S--t, notice the capital letter. I did not have the perfect childhood, or the perfect parents, nor was I the perfect parent. I'm not the perfect salesperson, and gee, I always wanted to write a book and I never did that, so I really didn't have the perfect life, or haven't yet, have I?
I could go on and on, but you see, this was my pain. My pain was, and is, in wishing. Wishing that the past hadn't happened the way it did, wishing that my mom wasn't an alcoholic (just thought I'd be a little more specific to add color) wishing I hadn't said or done something, wishing that my husband hadn't just said what he did, wishing that my kids had or hadn't done thus and so. This wishing connects to wanting to be in control, which leads to frustration (because you can't be), which leads to anger (the next step). The emotions are like lined-up dominos. This first one's out of balance and topples down on the others. Then you have these piles of black and white bricks either spilling out into your life or vying for space in the the unconscious. If you're prone to being perfect, stuffing them in the unconscious is a tidier option.
So, you ask, WHAT'S THAT GOT TO DO WITH THE PHYSICAL PAIN??? These emotions build up tension in the body. They are like toxins. Can we release them all? I couldn't! There were too many! I was always editing reality. And stuffing. All unconscious. Prior to reading Sarno, my family and friends did notice that I was angry a lot. I was reaching the breaking point.
So I think the process in looking at the emotions is to become alert about what happens in your life, what shuts you down, or what makes you scream at your husband, or kids or mom or whomever your subconscious deems is close enough and safe enough to vent on (no one is really deserving of any anger that's strong enough to cause damage of course). Once you can catch yourself and say, oh, that's me needing control, or that's me wishing that reality was different, you can pick up the domino that's about to fall and toss it out of the scene, or pick it up and look at it and deal with it--before it hits all the others and falls into that already seething pool, so to speak. This is the letting go. This is catching it when it's real and raw and malleable, before it turns into a defensive kind of anger or lashing out or, worse yet, before it turns into an ache or pain in your body.
Interestingly, I think that the ache and pain actually come FIRST when you are reacting to something. You get called on in class, what happens? Butterflies...The healthy thing is to "let those butterflies go" or take off. You start talking, know that this is a familiar reaction to the internal questions, "will I say the right/best/stupid thing?" and become engaged in the moment ANYWAY, show your stuff. Turn the fear into action and then it just becomes your life. That moment. What happened. On with the next moment. When we shut down, the butterflies swarm inside.
I love the buddhist teachings, because they are all about this kind of letting go. Of seeing your emotions, learning how to watch them, acknowledging, letting them be there and integrating them, but refraining from letting them "hook you." And in hooking you, they get stuck in your brain or your body and paralyze.
Anyway, this is way too long which is what I was trying to avoid in the first place, but I hope it somehow makes sense and can offer some help. Thank you for listening as it's been cathartic writing this. |
| swmr1 |
Posted - 09/23/2008 : 06:59:39
quote:
I love my hobbies and lately have been finding time for them and adding more all the time.
YES!!!!!!!!!!!!! 
quote:
to challenge them I am at college going to classes, and living with mostly strangers. I look to party on weekends and stay as social as possible.
Again, YES!!!!!!!!
quote:
I say to myself, "my problems don't come from the symptom, they come from me" or i just have hope this will be gone someday...I like to think of me at 25 (6 years from now) and just picture me as a confident man who doesn't have this symptom anymore
How about changing this one...to "I may have some irritating symptoms but I am not at fault, or defective. I am an individual who is constantly growing and learning. I am just as worthwhile as anyone else. 6 years from now I will have grown and learned more but it's OK to be 19 now in the process like everyone else."
Don't believe the hype. Your peers are no more awesome than you. They may seem like they have "arrived" but it's mostly pretense. No one "arrives" anywhere at 25. Life is a process. We're all learning and making mistakes and doing some things well all the time. Take it from someone who is old enough to be your mom--you're always going to feel like you're different. Everyone is different. That's what makes us individuals.
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| mizlorinj |
Posted - 09/23/2008 : 06:43:25
John, since you mention false hopes and question other things so much, you are still expressing too much doubt for this method to truly help you. If you believe this method will work, it will. If you continue to doubt because you see no results in a few days, it will not work for you. We get what we focus on; if we focus on "this isn't working" that's what you'll get. If you focus on "this worked for many others and it is going to work for me" it will. Repeated thoughts become a belief.
You said you are not reading the treatment segment daily. I did that when I was in the worst TMS. So you are missing a large part of changing your thoughts by not reading it.
Your comment implies that you identify with this symptom now; it has become part of who you are. Why? Does it give you a conversation piece? Is there secondary gain? Are you getting attention from someone because of it? Don't become your symptom. I'm sure there's a very worthwhile guy underneath the symptom of dry mouth! But YOU need to accept and feel that.
Mely, the point of focusing on the emotion that preceded the pain is to see what you were thinking when the pain began, make the connection with the emotion that is causing the pain. Then address the emotion.
-Lori
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| Mely |
Posted - 09/23/2008 : 00:06:49
quote:
Originally posted by winnieboo
quote:
My big question is, what the hell is the point of journaling and all of Sarno's theory if the answer is to forget.
Let's clear up any confusion about what you're forgetting about! The answer is to forget about the physical symptoms. Focus on your emotions instead. Journaling is just one method of helping TMSers bring internalized emotions out and on to paper where you can see them, review them and deal with them. In the meantime, listen to the great advice swmr and lori and everyone else offers on this thread. Live your life! Do it now, despite your symptoms. Make yourself go out, do things, engage with people and the world. Since you must have to go to class, how about lingering afterwards on the lawn or in the library? Take a book, enjoy the sun, work out, whatever it is you like to do--fully resume doing it!
"Scanning" your body for the symptoms (something we can all relate to) keeps you connected to the pain or discomfort. You just have to find a way to re-engage your mind with your world. The symptoms are distracting you from something you fear or that makes you angry, sad, etc. Journaling or talking to a therapist will help you uncover that.
I've also been struggling with the same query as John. I'm not sure how you forget about your physical symptoms and focus on your emotions since it is all connected. I thought that the point of journaling was to try and associate a certain feeling or emotion at the time you are feeling the pain so you know what emotions are causing you problems. I copied the following tip from somewhere (don't remember where): "Every time you have pain, think of what directly preceeded it. What emotions or feelings were involved." If this is the case, aren't you still focussing on the pain?
John - I'm also in about the same time frame as you. I started journalling close to 2 weeks ago. At first, I'd identify some type of emotion directly preceeding the pain - anger, frustration etc. I'd have some brief relief from the pain but it would just come back again. Then, after a stressful day of getting ready for a family dinner without enough help from my children in my estimation, I got really bad back pain and a headache. I took a pill and felt better. Since that really bad day, I've been feeling progressively better every day (thank G-d). I'm also pushing at the excercise which was causing me a lot of pain but has 90% subsided.
good luck |
| johnaccardi |
Posted - 09/22/2008 : 21:05:04
Swmr, Thanks for that insight. You know, that's something I came across and realized journaling today just before I read your post. I really think that's the reason for this thing, It's so I have the social excuse.
Mizlorinj, I know 10 days isn't enough and that's why i'm still journaling everyday. It was just so frustrating to get the same hopes as it looked like journaling was helping a lot on that first and second day and then all of a sudden the symptom seemed to get worse than ever. I've just had enough of these false hopes. I'm working on being "that person" now, and I'm also working on realizing that life wouldn't be so great without this symptom, my problems are because of me and who I am... not the symptom.
Winniepoo, I see what you mean about the journaling. Still, i'm not sure it's the actual emptying of the emotions or the simple distractive qualities of journaling and maybe even a placebo effect that does the healing. I guess it doesn't really matter.
Ragesootheratio, I don't always think psychological, actually I almost never do...I do write the pressure essays. I don't know of Scott Brady but i'll look into it. Of course I think about balancing my frustration, I love my hobbies and lately have been finding time for them and adding more all the time. It's not pain that I have, it's mouth and speech symptoms, to challenge them I am at college going to classes, and living with mostly strangers. I look to party on weekends and stay as social as possible. I say to myself, "my problems don't come from the symptom, they come from me" or i just have hope this will be gone someday...I like to think of me at 25 (6 years from now) and just picture me as a confident man who doesn't have this symptom anymore. I'm not reading the treatment segment.
I just realized these were probably all ritorical questions, haha. |
| winnieboo |
Posted - 09/22/2008 : 17:21:57
quote:
My big question is, what the hell is the point of journaling and all of Sarno's theory if the answer is to forget.
Let's clear up any confusion about what you're forgetting about! The answer is to forget about the physical symptoms. Focus on your emotions instead. Journaling is just one method of helping TMSers bring internalized emotions out and on to paper where you can see them, review them and deal with them. In the meantime, listen to the great advice swmr and lori and everyone else offers on this thread. Live your life! Do it now, despite your symptoms. Make yourself go out, do things, engage with people and the world. Since you must have to go to class, how about lingering afterwards on the lawn or in the library? Take a book, enjoy the sun, work out, whatever it is you like to do--fully resume doing it!
"Scanning" your body for the symptoms (something we can all relate to) keeps you connected to the pain or discomfort. You just have to find a way to re-engage your mind with your world. The symptoms are distracting you from something you fear or that makes you angry, sad, etc. Journaling or talking to a therapist will help you uncover that. |
| swmr1 |
Posted - 09/22/2008 : 16:13:34
quote:
So swmr, you are recovered from your pain? Saying you had to decide you could live with it must've been key.
I'm recovered from my piriformis issue (which lasted from 1999-2006). I have a twinge now and then but it goes away within a day or so. I think I came to the conclusion that my piriformis pain was hugely irritating but it wasn't what I'd call extremely painful. I could still function (albeit uncomfortably) but I wasn't relegated to my bed. The thing that made it so debilitating was the worry that something was really wrong. That made me constantly focus on the fact that it was spasming and bothering me. I really thought about it and realized that if it stayed forever I could deal with it as long as it didn't mean my days of exercising and doing the things I like were over. That was my big fear. Once that fear was gone things started to get better.
I also have dealt with one or two shoulder/foot issues over the last year and a half. Though I have taken a work-out or two off here and there to make sure I didn't push too hard, I have experimented with getting right back into activities and have, so far, been encouraged by the fact that none of my "injuries" have sidelined me for more than a day or two.
I currently have what the doctors are telling me is some tendonitis in one of my feet due to my marathon training. I'm playing around with my running to see how far I can push things. I haven't read much on tendonitis and TMS but I know Sarno thinks it's suspect at least. I will say that I've upped my running mileage quite a lot and it wouldn't surprise me if my foot decided to rebel a little with all the new stress. But, I've decided not to fear it. I'll just see what happens. Worst case scenario, i have to back off on my running and maybe end up doing that half-marathon until my tendons and muscles get used to the pounding. That might be good for me and my perfectionist drive to complete the mission I've started. Learning to be satisfied meeting my goals only part-way might actually be good for me.
When you are training on your bike are you enjoying yourself? Do you let yourself just throw caution to the wind and enjoy yourself? Or are you challenging your pain and focusing on that the whole time? Give yourself permission to do something you like and do it for the fun of it. Maybe that will give you some time off from focusing on the pain.
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| mizlorinj |
Posted - 09/22/2008 : 14:02:42
um, 10 days? that really is NOT a lot of time that you've been concentrating on the TMS treatment plan.
John, why are you fighting this? It is safe to say that for MOST of us who try it, Journaling DOES in fact work. But you have to DO IT. Why do so many psychologists and even MDs recommend it? Because IT WORKS. And I want to do it because I don't want to chance that the emotions left in there (not processing them by journaling) will cause something else--possibly more serious than back pain!
You said recently that you saw a letup when you were journaling. What happened? How many days did you write out what you were feeling? It takes more than just a few.
Also, you have to get past the "when I am rid of this condition I will be a . . . ". You have to be that person NOW. Condition or no condition.
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| swmr1 |
Posted - 09/22/2008 : 13:27:03
quote:
Of course I think I want it to go away but every day, all the time, I'm thinking to myself that I would be a really cool guy, and a really successful guy If this wasn't with me.
I'm no psychologist, but this almost sounds like a protection mechanism of some kind. You'd be this awesome guy (whatever that really is) IF ONLY you didn't have your problem. But could your problem be giving you a convenient excuse to "fail"? Perhaps you're afraid of rejection of your normal self--so having this problem protects you from having to see if the regular you would be rejected or not?
I've been learning a lot this past year or two about "normal" and "right and wrong". In many ways they don't really exist. For 42 years I've acted like there is some objective standard that I either measure up to or I don't. The reality is that no such thing exists. Life is so much more complicated than that. People aren't nearly as interested in the externals that I get so wrapped up in. We're all so interested in our own "defects,"when most of the rest of the world either doesn't see them or doesn't care.
If you happen to see "Burn After Reading" (and I don't recommend everyone see it as it's very dark comedy--Coen brothers and all), it's like one of the characters who is obsessed with getting plastic surgery. It will make her OK. She's convinced she's not alright and she completely misses the fact that others like her as she is because she's so caught up in needing these procedures she can't see anything else.
I'm learning to be alright if everyone in the world doesn't approve of me. And I'm trying to notice those who like me as I am a little more. It's not easy, but I'm finding it pretty liberating when I have a small success... |
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