| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Curiosity18 |
Posted - 08/29/2008 : 18:50:08
I would really appreciate a reality check from you folks. Last April, I had a great improvement in my 3-year struggle with bladder pain (thanks to Dr. Schubiner). I then developed shoulder tendinitis which became a "frozen" shoulder. It hurt to move, so I stopped moving it, and it became stuck. Since I had lost significant range of motion I decided to have some sessions of physical therapy to get the shoulder mobile again. (I know what you guys are thinking).
Initially it helped increase my range, but it is still limited. Then I had a bad response to a treatment (called strain-counterstrain) which resulted in increased anxiety. Soon my bladder and neck pain returned. The PT wasn't sure why I had this reaction, but thought I might have "a sensitive system". She also said that a frozen shoulder can often result on its own, but can take up to 18 months! I haven't had an MRI of my shoulder because I know that my age they will find degenerative changes, and I don't have the emotional strength right now to hear that from a well-meaning local orthopedist.
The problem is that I'm now dealing with, not only the shoulder, but many of my old TMS symptoms (neck, bladder,anxiety, you name it). You'd think I had learned my lesson, but I then had a phone consultation with an (Entergy practitioner who utilizes tapping sequences for healing (similar to EFT). I had heard that EFT could be useful in clarifying emotional issues, so I thought that's what I could get help with.
I then found out that this was not EFT. The practitioner went on to tell me that she believed I had multiple micro-viruses, infections, and food allergies that were causing my bladder and shoulder problems, |
| 9 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Curiosity18 |
Posted - 08/30/2008 : 22:14:42
mk6283-
Thanks for your comments/suggestions. I have already been in PT for 3 months, and while the ultrasound and stretching are nice, my progress has stopped. I probably should have started it sooner (I initially half-heartedly utilized a TMS approach until I started losing range of motion. I am doing stretching on my own at home, however, and the shoulder pain has improved.
Thanks again for your support and reassurance.
Curiosity |
| Curiosity18 |
Posted - 08/30/2008 : 22:13:42
mk6283-
Thanks for your comments/suggestions. I have already been in PT for 3 months, and while the ultrasound and stretching are nice, my progress has stopped. I probably should have started it sooner (I initially half-heartedly utilized a TMS approach until I started losing range of motion. I am doing stretching on my own at home, however, and the shoulder pain has improved. |
| mala |
Posted - 08/30/2008 : 18:13:26
quote:
The practitioner went on to tell me that she believed I had multiple micro-viruses, infections, and food allergies that were causing my bladder and shoulder problems,
Hi curiosity,
Sorry to hear that you are going thru a rough phase and hope it will soon pass. It is very important to stay away from people who are likely to tell you that there is something physically wrong with you as it goes against the whole concept of curing tms. Your unconscious is just waiting to feed on such information in order to grow in strength so try not to give it that kind of power.
We have all experienced how much more worse we feel when someone in the medical profession tells us what is wrong with us but also remember that most of them do so out of ignorance and because they themselves honestly don't know what is wrong with you but then they couldn't possible tell you that now could they?
Read this article on nocebos and you will see how powerful suggestions can be both positive and negative.
nocebo and nocebo effect
Research has...shown that the nocebo effect can reverse the body's response to true medical treatment from positive to negative. (Root-Bernstein 1998)
A nocebo (Latin for "I will harm") is something that should be ineffective but which causes symptoms of ill health. A nocebo effect is an ill effect caused by the suggestion or belief that something is harmful. The term 'nocebo' became popular in the 1990s. Prior to that, both pleasant and harmful effects thought to be due to the power of suggestion were usually referred to as being due to the placebo effect.
Because of ethical concerns, nocebos are not commonly used in medical practice or research. Thus, it is not unexpected that the nocebo effect is not well-established in the scientific literature. However, there are some anecdotes and some studies that are commonly appealed to in the literature to support its validity.
More than two-thirds of 34 college students developed headaches when told that a non-existent electrical current passing through their heads could produce a headache.
"Japanese researchers tested 57 high school boys for their sensitivity to allergens. The boys filled out questionnaires about past experiences with plants, including lacquer trees, which can cause itchy rashes much as poison oak and poison ivy do. Boys who reported having severe reactions to the poisonous trees were blindfolded. Researchers brushed one arm with leaves from a lacquer tree but told the boys they were chestnut tree leaves. The scientists stroked the other arm with chestnut tree leaves but said the foliage came from a lacquer tree. Within minutes the arm the boys believed to have been exposed to the poisonous tree began to react, turning red and developing a bumpy, itchy rash. In most cases the arm that had contact with the actual poison did not react." (Gardiner Morse, "The nocebo effect," Hippocrates, November 1999, Hippocrates.com)
In the Framingham Heart Study, women who believed they are prone to heart disease were nearly four times as likely to die as women with similar risk factors who didn't believe.* (Voelker, Rebecca. "Nocebos Contribute to a Host of Ills." Journal of the American Medical Association 275 no. 5 (1996): 345-47. ) [Of course, one might argue that the women in both groups had good intuitions. The objective risk factors may have been the same, but subjectively the women knew their bodies better than the objective tests could reveal.]
C.K. Meador claimed that people who believe in voodoo may actually get sick and die because of their belief ("Hex Death: Voodoo Magic or Persuasion?" Southern Medical Journal 85, no. 3 (1992): 244-47).
"In one experiment, asthmatic patients breathed in a vapor that researchers told them was a chemical irritant or allergen. Nearly half of the patients experienced breathing problems, with a dozen developing full-blown attacks. They were “treated” with a substance they believed to be a bronchodilating medicine, and recovered immediately. In actuality, both the “irritant” and the “medicine” were a nebulized saltwater solution."*
Good Luck & Good Health
Mala |
| mk6283 |
Posted - 08/30/2008 : 12:16:43
I know a few people with similar experiences. Long bouts recuperating from adhesive capsulitis via anti-inflammatory drugs, physical therapy, trigger point exercises, etc. The end point seemed to be a functioning (yet still somewhat restricted) shoulder that was finally no longer a source of pain. However, shortly after reaching that point, they quickly developed some other TMS manifestation, be it back pain, neck pain, IBS, etc.
I think the frozen shoulder issue would be best dealt with if it were addressed simultaneously as both a result of unaddressed emotional factors and having a subsequent/consequential physical impairment. As such, (1) the emotional factors need to be addressed to both help in recovering from the shoulder problems, but to also prevent symptom transition once a satisfactory endpoint is reached AND (2) the recommended physical treatment approaches SHOULD be undertaken quickly (physical therapy, weight training, stretching, trigger point exercises, etc.) as they will not only help improve the restrictions that have developed, but can prevent future deterioration.
This seems to be, at least in my opinion/experience, one of the settings in which long-standing TMS can actually lead to an alteration in the tissues. Of course, it is not the TMS that has caused the adhesions, but it is rather likely the end-result of extended disuse secondary to the chronic pain. That is why early intervention with PT is so important. There are probably some cases of adhesive capsulitis that are unrelated to TMS, but the vast majority appear to be. Good luck!
Best,
MK
Note: your concerns about the viruses, etc. are unnecessary. To my knowledge, no such evidence exists anywhere in the respectable literature, NOR WOULD IT MAKE ANY DIFFERENCE!!! Even if microorganisms were involved in the mechanism by which the TMS equivalents manifest (as they are in GI ulcers -- H. Pylori), that by no means implies that they are not psychogenic! Our immune system is influenced by our emotions as much as any other system (if not more!). Take care. |
| Curiosity18 |
Posted - 08/30/2008 : 11:26:08
hkp-
First of all, I'm so glad to hear your doing better! I really appreciated your words of comfort and wisdom, and you're right- I need to remember to take my own advice. Also, isn't it interesting how someone's well-intentioned words (like your boyfriend's)can act as "triggers",when we allow them?
Peg-
your post was so helpful! Your friends experience really motivates me to look at some other issues(like leaving my secure job of 12 years to begin a new business of my own!) And you're right of course about bacteria, viruses, etc. Believe it or not I'm usually not so gullible! I am also struggling to come to a healthy rage/soothe ratio. Thank you for your support.
I think one of my challenges is to not be so shocked and overwhelmed when the symptoms move to a new location, because then the TMS once again succeeds as becoming a major distraction.
Thanks again-
Curiosity
|
| Peg |
Posted - 08/29/2008 : 20:39:55
Hi Curiosity 18,
I searched through some old posts so I could copy a story that I had relayed back in June. I think it might help.
I don't have any experience with shoulder pain/tms (one of the few equivalents I haven't had..ha ha) but it sounds pretty painful. I can relay a story from my friend which might be of some help. She had recovered quickly from back pain several years ago after borrowing my HBP book. I was amazed at her quick cure. She totally embraces the mindbody connection and has done well except for occasional mild symptoms due to stress. Last fall, she developed shoulder pain out of the blue. Within a week, it became extremely painful, interrupted her sleep and she described it as "frozen" (I assume she meant immobile). she called her doc and got an appt to be seen/evaluated. She was caught in rush hour traffic and missed her appt. She began to wonder to herself, whether anything in her life might be causing her problem. When she got home, she took some Advil and laid down for a while. When she got up, it hit her!! She and her husband had been worried about their 16 year old son, because he was acting differently. She talked with her son and was informed that he had his first girlfriend (thus the change in behavior-nothing serious, just different). She was relieved to say the least. The next morning, her shoulder was a little sore, but much improved. It continued to improve, and she never had to see the Dr. She called me with excitement to relay her story.
Sarno wins again!
"I then found out that this was not EFT. The practitioner went on to tell me that she believed I had multiple micro-viruses, infections, and food allergies that were causing my bladder and shoulder problems"
micro-viruses, infections and food allergies causing shoulder tendinitis and bladder problems? And she could tell this over the phone? All I have to say is what is this "energy practitioner" smoking.
Viruses run there course and resolve
infections cause fever, chills, redness, swelling etc
food allergies (which can be just tms or become a conditioned response) might cause gastrointestinal upset or rashes.
"I would really appreciate a reality check from you folks. Last April, I had a great improvement in my 3-year struggle with bladder pain (thanks to Dr. Schubiner). I then developed shoulder tendinitis which became a "frozen" shoulder."
Here's your reality check. what you just described is the symptom imperative. Your 3 years of bladder pain resolved only to be replaced by the shoulder pain. It's not uncommon, and many of us have experienced it. The key is to stay focused on the psychological (not the physical). It may move around more or morph into some weird symptom, but if you can relax and just watch it, all the while doing the emotional work, trying to find that Rage/Soothe ratio balance, the symptoms will go.
"I realize that this almost seemed so fragmented, and as I write it I see so many mistakes I made, not only in the text, but over the past four months. If I had just treated this strictly as TMS and as more of the symptom imperative, I would probably be over this by now. Instead I've been spending my summer looking for cures, and not really doing the deep work that has gotten so many of you folks well."
I think in your second post, you answered your own question. But don't be hard on yourself. That's part of the reason we are TMS'ers. We're very hard on ourselves. Would you talk that way to your best friend? Dr. Andrea Leonard-Segal's chapter in The Divided Mind describes this trait eloquently.
Take credit for being open minded and willing to put in the effort you have put in to recover from your years of bladder pain. I know Dr. Schubiner showed you the way, but you did the work and you deserve to feel a sense of accomplishment. You can do it again with the shoulder issue too.
By the way, I don't think the PT was initially a bad idea, however, I think the reason you continued to have pain was simply because it was TMS. I think the PT was grasping at straws to explain why her treatment wasn't working anymore, so she invented the "strain-counterstrain and sensitive system" explanations. Then on top of it she did you a disservice by telling you that it could take up to 18 months to resolve! Oh, please, the largest bone in the body, the femur, heals in 6 weeks.
Your story reminds me of all the incorrect diagnoses the docs give us because they don't know about TMS and they are just going on what they learned in med school (like Dr. Sarno initially did).
Early on in my recovery, I found it helpful to re-read and remind myself of what was really going on. Journalling helped as well, as did balancing all my responsibilities with some pleasurable activities (whatever floats your boat).
I hope I didn't sound too flip in my post (it was aimed at the supposed healers who treated you) and I do hope you are feeling better soon.
Take Care,
Peg
In questions of science, the authority of a thousand is not worth the humble reasoning of a single individual. Galileo Galilei |
| hkp |
Posted - 08/29/2008 : 19:58:37
Hi Curiosity:
I SO appreciated it a few months back when you wrote to me to offer encouragement on my own bladder problems. Here's what you told me:
<<hkp-
check out Dr. Schubiner's web site: yourpainisreal.com. He is a great TMS Dr. who has worked quite a bit with folks with interstitial cystitis/bladder problems. If you have no infection and you've had a cystoscopy it's definitely TMS. Check the search part of the forum for bladder issues/interstitial cystitis. Many people have had this and vaginal problems has a manifestation of TMS. On his web site Dr. Schubiner mentions this as an equivalent. Dr. Mark Sopher, another TMS physician also mentions these specific problems in his book. You've conquered other TMS issues in the past. You can do this one too!>>
That was over the 4th of July weekend, one of the darkest I've had in recent years. Hearing Dr. Schubiner say IC = TMS was huge for me. So thank you!
I have been, very gradually, getting better since then, but I slip into the physical realm a lot, too. For instance about two weeks ago, after a pretty good bladder week, I went with my boyfriend to stay at his friends' house in Monterey for the weekend. I hadn't had any alcohol in 3 months, because of the "bladder irritation," you know. His friends were very hearty and free with wine and beer, and I ended up having just 3 oz of red wine or so. Four hours later, as we were driving home, boyfriend says, "See, that wine didn't hurt you!" I had been doing fine, but after his remark, literally within 10 minutes I had to pee wickedly. We stopped at a WalMart and there was virtually nothing to pee. The symptoms resolved that evening, but then came back on and off for and entire week and a half afterwards.
It was excruciating. It was the programming. It was my mind.
I think you should take your own advice to me and check in with Dr. Schubiner! It sounds to me like the energy healer will give you nothing more than additional de-programming work to do in the long run.
What does your inner voice tell you?
Thanks again!
hkp
|
| Curiosity18 |
Posted - 08/29/2008 : 19:15:24
Okay this is getting ridiculous. I pushed it again! Anyway, I realized that this practitioner was "out there", and I immediately decided to let go of everything she said. But of course now I'm wondering if maybe she was right, and I'm falling back into the loop of "there is something physically wrong with me", in spite of all the tests!
I realize that this almost seemed so fragmented, and as I write it I see so many mistakes I made, not only in the text, but over the past four months. If I had just treated this strictly as TMS and as more of the symptom imperative, I would probably be over this by now. Instead I've been spending my summer looking for cures, and not really doing the deep work that has gotten so many of you folks well.
I would appreciate any suggestions for getting back on track as well as a reality check on what the energy practitioner said. I am discontinuing PT, by the way.
Thank you for getting through this, and sorry about all the mistakes!
Curiosity
|
| Curiosity18 |
Posted - 08/29/2008 : 18:53:11
I didn't mean to post this unedited. I wasn't really sure whether or not I was going to post it at all, but I accidentally pressed " Pardon me debated whether or not to post all |
|
|
