| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| n/a |
Posted - 08/03/2008 : 12:16:55
On very many days, my symptoms are the worst from about mid-morning to mid-afternoon. I am still waiting for my copy of The Mindbody Prescription to come in the mail, so was wondering if someone could enlighten me on this particular point.
I definitely feel that there is a link to stress, but it seems like once it starts I have a very hard time stopping it. I.e. I try journaling and relaxation exercises (currently from the CD that comes with the book The Open-Focus Brain), but I am not sure how much of an impact that is having. I would very much appreciate advice on this point.
I also have a more conceptual question: I seem to understand - from websites, not having received the book yet - that one should focus on the fact that one's mind is causing the symptoms and that there is nothing wrong with one's body. At the same time, Sarno believes that one's thoughts do actually create physiological changes that lead to the symptoms. So, while one can believe 1) that one's thoughts are the ultimate cause and even 2) that changing one's thoughts will reverse the changes, how is one supposed to focus away from the fact that one currently does have said physical changes? What I mean is that I totally get that there is nothing "structurally" wrong with me etc, but to me that conceptually doesn't translate to "there is nothing wrong with me physically, period." Does that make sense?
I also wonder how people feel about using medicine (in my case alternative medicine) to work on the symptoms as long as one is aware that the mental work has to fight the cause. So e.g. I have been helped by frequency-specific microcurrents for some of my symptoms, and I like acupuncture etc.
Just to be clear: all this being said, I am totally on board with the TMS idea. In addition to fitting the symptoms profile very well, I think I exhibit a lot of the personality traits (perfectionism etc). I also found reading the book The Highly Sensitive Person by Elaine Aron very helpful, because in my case it really did help to explain how these traits came about as I grew up.
I also wonder what you guys think about making changes in one's life (e.g. try to make it less stressful etc). Is that helpful or is it a mistake to focus on any of these "external" things rather than working on the mind itself?
Thanks for picking up on any of my questions! :) |
| 11 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| stanfr |
Posted - 08/08/2008 : 04:50:59
Hi Jamie;
A couple commments: I've never been convinced of all aspects of distraction theory, although i am convinced the subconcious plays a major role in TMS symptoms. In my case, I suspect that my numerous symptoms over the years are basically a physical manifestation of anxiety. I've found that while some things are nearly impossible to ignore, if you can confidently accept that the symptoms are not going to harm you, and that you hold the power to eliminate them, then the fear will dissipate and it will occupy your thoughts less and less.
"Ignoring" really then becomes just a matter of acceptance and realization that the symptom is not going to derail you. Since you've made xcountry trips etc, you're already part way there. |
| n/a |
Posted - 08/08/2008 : 02:31:09
Actually, as mentioned in one of my other posts, I did read the entire Sarno book (MBP) the other day. Yeah, I guess it's "the unconscious" in his theory, but the whole mind-body separation is so artificial anyway that I don't think it's incorrect saying it's too much for the body. Same thing, really. One way or another, some part of me is unhappy. :)
One issue with the rage theory is that it's pretty unfalsifiable per se. I think the mindbody theory is correct, which is why the treatment is successful for people. But it's entirely possible that the reason it works is that journaling etc reduces stress or fear. Again, I am not sure if it's really relevant if we call what it does reducing stress, or anger, or fear, or whatever. The mindbody theory is correct in any case.
Mind you that I am not denying that I am angry about a number of things (consciously and presumably unconsciously) and I have no problem with that concept. But I have a hunch that fear (conscious and unconscious) is an important idea in its own right, and that journaling and other ways of getting in touch with one's inner processes can reduce fear.
I guess my point is just that one can posit an entire mindbody theory with fear as the root emotion, where bodily symptoms develop as a distraction from the fear. And yes, I understand that Sarno is saying all fear goes back to the anger/rage issue, but like I said, there is virtually no way to prove which is the "genuine" root (or even say for sure that it's the same for all people). |
| n/a |
Posted - 08/08/2008 : 02:27:40
Actually, as mentioned in one of my other posts, I did read the entire Sarno book (MBP) the other day. Yeah, I guess it's "the unconscious" in his theory, but the whole mind-body separation is so artificial anyway that I don't think it's incorrect saying it's too much for the body. Same thing, really. One way or another, some part of me is unhappy. :)
One issue with the rage theory is that it's pretty unfalsifiable per se. I think the mindbody theory is correct, which is why the treatment is successful for people. But it's entirely possible that the reason it works is that journaling etc reduces stress or fear. Again, I am not sure if it's really relevant if we call what it does reducing stress, or anger, or fear, or whatever. The mindbody theory is correct in any case.
Mind you that I am not denying that I am angry about a number of things (consciously and presumably unconsciously) and I have no problem with that concept. But I have a hunch that fear (conscious and unconscious) is an important idea in its own right, and that journaling and other ways of getting in touch with one's inner processes can reduce fear.
I guess my point is just that one can posit an entire mindbody theory with fear as the root emotion, where bodily symptoms develop as a distraction from the fear. And yes, I understand that Sarno is saying all fear goes back to the anger/rage issue, but like I said, there is virtually no way to prove which is the "genuine" root (or even say for sure that it's the same for all people). |
| Wavy Soul |
Posted - 08/08/2008 : 00:47:50
Hi Jamie,
I just wanted to say, in response to your last comment "My body is saying, this is all too much, make it stop," that it isn't really our BODIES that say this. Our bodies are animals and they are naturally healthy. Some other part of us (Sarno calls it the unconscious ego) seems to possess the body and use it as a means of expression.
Again, you'll learn more when you actually read Sarno. It's not just "the mind," that we are dealing with, in TMS, but strong unconscious forces that have different agendas from our conscious mind. That's why Sarno calls it "The Divided Mind."
While it is true that stress seems to worsen symptoms, it isn't necessarily that the particular thing is really stressful, so much as that we are conditioned to feel it is stressful because we already carry a reservoir of so much unconscious rage that it doesn't take much to make it spill over. That feeling is stressful! In order to DISTRACT ourselves from it spilling over, our body gets symptoms. As long as we react to them, it's a successful strategy. If we don't, they go away.
That's what we're all here talking about.
Love is the answer, whatever the question |
| n/a |
Posted - 08/07/2008 : 22:55:26
I spoke to Arnold Bloch briefly, who does phone stuff and seems nice. Some people on this board seem to like him a lot.
I take the probiotics for the IBS, not the IC (the theory being that I have small intestine bacterial overgrowth - SIBO - for which I did test slightly positive in a breath test a year ago). What's funny to me now that I know about TMS is that each time I would take a new probiotic, I would get better for a day or two and then get worse again. One heck of a placebo...
The one I take now I take a lot (even after going down by half) on the advice of my alternative care practitioner, but I think I will keep slowly decreasing.
My IBS is really quite manageable right now. The IC is tougher. While I am sometimes able to reduce the symptoms by doing the TMS thinking (talking to my unconscious, trying to uncover anger, etc), once the bladder urgency starts, it never really ceases altogether until I go to the bathroom.
So maybe I am getting rid of the IBS first because I am better able to ignore those symptoms as they bother me less. The IC, on the other hand, I have a hard time ignoring when the urgency gets bad (despite trying to focus on the psychological thinking).
Thinking about it in the context of Sarno's work, I think I had read about IC briefly before developing it (it was mentioned along with some IBS materials). Also, someone I know had recently developed a UTI, and perhaps I remembered how the one UTI I had had many years before was terrible. So maybe this is information my unconscious used? I guess we'll never know for sure.
By the way, I should mention that while my symptoms are pretty awful at times, I never stopped working and I have flown across the country several times (mostly for work) with the IC. So I really am doing all I can to continue having a normal life.
Sometimes I wonder if it's really all repressed emotions or if some of it is just stress, period. My IC definitely gets worse with stress (though sometimes it gets worse randomly), and I am not sure that it always goes through a "repression" mechanism when that happens. Again, no way to know for certain. One way or another, my body is saying "this is all too much, make it stop!" |
| HilaryN |
Posted - 08/07/2008 : 12:50:45
Can't find your other post just now, but as it's holiday (= vacation in US) season maybe you need to wait a few weeks for the therapist to come back.
Don Dubin does therapy by phone – if you search this forum you should find his no.
Or you could try other therapists near you – doesn't necessarily have to be a TMS one.
quote:
I was taking a very large amount of those probiotics
I'm curious – did you take large amounts from the start or did you increase the amount as the IC got worse?
I'm comparing with when I took Evening Primrose Oil to avoid menstrual headaches – I had to keep increasing the amount for it to be effective. I treated it as TMS and no longer have to take the EPO.
Hilary N |
| n/a |
Posted - 08/06/2008 : 20:06:22
Thanks, Hilary! As I mentioned in my other post today, I have been unable to get a hold of the one Chicago TMS therapist. I will keep looking, or will start speaking to a therapist by phone. I don't have anxiety attacks per se and I didn't consider this to be a big part of my life before this IC stuff.
As far as meds, I don't take any regular meds, just probiotics and a mineral I was taking a very large amount of those probiotics, so going down was by no means a stretch. I think I am okay so far, or close enough. ;) I don't think that mineral ever did much.
I guess what's weird to me is that when it started, I really thought it was just a UTI, was given antibiotics, and I didn't worry about it much, but then it turned into this crazy thing. But I had seen mentions of IC while researching IBS, so who knows what got lodged into my head and my unconscious got ideas. :P Also, perhaps my body remembered this one UTI many years ago and how it was some of the worst pain ever.
It really does seem like TMS likes to pick the worst possible symptoms (as subjectively experienced) - what could be a better distraction? I know other people have fought TMS and won, and I have hope that one day I will count myself among them. As also mentioned in my other post today, I really do fit the TMS profile so well, both symptoms-wise and personality-wise, and all things considered, that's very good news.
I actually think that if I stayed symptom-free IC-wise for even just a few days, a lot of the fear would go away. I tend to get pretty optimistic when I feel better. Of course, for now I am trying to focus on the emotional and work on that. It would be nice if one could measure success against TMS a bit more clearly! |
| HilaryN |
Posted - 08/06/2008 : 11:48:21
Jamie, congratulations on the food success. That's great!
Regarding the anxiety, have you sought professional help on that?
quote:
Perhaps part of what's going on with my use of alternative medicine is that while I fully buy the TMS idea, I am scared that my mind alone is not strong enough on its own to alleviate the symptoms and then undo the problems it has caused.
Don't rush into anything yet, Jamie. Read the book first, then give it a few weeks before you even start coming off the medication, because it takes a while to re-condition your mind. Stopping the medication now could be counter-productive at this stage.
As a general rule, I would also say, don't stop taking medication without consulting your doctor first, but I'm guessing that as it's alternative medicine it's not your doctor who's prescribed it.
As I said above, my advice would be to take it slowly – particularly if you're scared of the consequences of stopping the medication.
I applaud Chris for his approach, and what he says is true – but not necessarily for everyone. What was appropriate for him might not be appropriate for you because your circumstances and state of mind could be different. That's for you to judge.
By taking it slowly and coming off the medication gradually, hopefully you'll minimise the fear associated with reducing it. But do wait until you've read the book (a couple of times at least!) and given yourself time to recondition your mind.
quote:
I am at a point where I think that I can get a lot better by doing the TMS work, but I think part of me still has a hard time believing that I could be symptom-free
I will say unequivocally: the TMS work is not about “managing” the pain or condition, or improving it. It's about CURING it, 100%. Full-stop, point final, period.
Furthermore, you're not cured until you're off medication and are not afraid or restricted in any normal activity which you carried out previously. There are no guarantees here, but you do have to believe that you will eventually be cured, otherwise it's unlikely you ever will be.
Have a read of this post from Newmom:
http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3785
She went through a period of being afraid – but eventually got through it, and I'm sure you will, too.
You're on your way...
Hilary N |
| n/a |
Posted - 08/03/2008 : 14:03:10
Thanks a lot for the replies! That all makes sense, and I will try to find a path that works for me.
I have made big progress in the food area, by the way. I had been avoiding chocolate for years (they were "causing" migraines) and have had a lot of it over the last two weeks. I also had pizza again for the first time in ages a few days ago, and I went to Taco Bell last night (which I hadn't been doing because of the IBS). So no worries about me in that department. ;)
While I still have symptoms, I can definitely see my IBS improving and I have cut down my supplements in half (and continue going down). The IC remains the bigger problem, although I do have more decent or even quite good hours in there. I am trying to live a more normal life in that area, but as was pointed out above more generally, it is disappointing (and scary) if you try to walk around without worries about bathrooms and then you're suddenly in tremendous pain that's hard to fix.
What seems to happen to me many days is that in the morning (whether when I wake up or a few hours later), my anxiety level rises like crazy. My heart starts beating really fast, and my throat feels like it's narrowing. I often have a hard time even associating any thoughts with what's going on because it feels like the anxiety precedes the thoughts (this is obviously incorrect, I am just saying that it feels that way).
Perhaps part of what's going on with my use of alternative medicine is that while I fully buy the TMS idea, I am scared that my mind alone is not strong enough on its own to alleviate the symptoms and then undo the problems it has caused. Has anyone else experienced this? If so, what happened when/if you just went off all other treatments?
I am at a point where I think that I can get a lot better by doing the TMS work, but I think part of me still has a hard time believing that I could be symptom-free in the end (but I am encouraged by the fact that this has indeed happened for numerous people). While I can live with some symptoms and still be happy (e.g. some headaches, some IBS issues), I think it would be extremely difficult for me to do so if I had any remaining IC symptoms. |
| ChrisSC |
Posted - 08/03/2008 : 13:31:41
quote:
On very many days, my symptoms are the worst from about mid-morning to mid-afternoon.
This could be a conditioned response. Symptoms often get worse/better at certain times of day or during certain activities because this is how the brain is programmed. There is a section in Mindbody Prescription about this which explains this in more detail.
quote:
how is one supposed to focus away from the fact that one currently does have said physical changes?
I think I understand what you're saying here. The physical changes created by the unconscious are temporary and non-harmful, though painful. It is important, though difficult at first, to not think in physical terms about what is going on. It helps to understand that there are real physical changes (reduced blood flow to area, etc.) because it makes TMS more tangible, but once you understand that these physical changes are real and truly harmless, you should stop thinking too much about it. Instead of thinking "my [insert body part] hurts because of reduced blood flow"... think "it probably hurts because of [insert source of unconscious rage]."
quote:
I also wonder how people feel about using medicine (in my case alternative medicine) to work on the symptoms as long as one is aware that the mental work has to fight the cause. So e.g. I have been helped by frequency-specific microcurrents for some of my symptoms, and I like acupuncture etc.
In my opinion you should discontinue this at least for a while as you work on TMS. There are a few reasons for this. Other treatments may reduce the severity of your symptoms temporarily, but they are not treating the cause. Only the emotional work and reinforcing the TMS concept in your mind can really treat the cause. Doing other treatment methods at the same time only suggests that you aren't 100% buying into TMS. Even if you DON'T 100% buy into it, you should ACT like you do--this is very important!
Even though you say you know the mental work has to fight the cause, you might be fooling yourself. The same thing happened to me. I decided to continue to wear my orthotic shoe inserts for a while "because they were comfortable, not because they were helping me" ... but then when I stopped wearing them the pain in my legs increased significantly for a few days, showing that on some level of consciousness I still believed they were benefiting me.
When I decided to truly commit to TMS, I stopped any physical treatments and stopped acupuncture and even stopped eating as healthy as I had been. The reason that I did this was to sort of set up a control experiment: I needed to know that I was improving ONLY from doing TMS work and it was not a result of healthy eating habits, or physical therapy, or acupuncture, etc. Gathering personal evidence in support of TMS is important for each of us to do, because there will be times when doubt creeps in and we need the weapons to fight it off.
Hope that helps some! |
| HilaryN |
Posted - 08/03/2008 : 13:05:52
Hi Jamie,
Welcome to the forum.
quote:
On very many days, my symptoms are the worst from about mid-morning to mid-afternoon.
Sarno covers this in the book under “Pavlovian conditioning” - best wait to read it than me try and explain.
quote:
What I mean is that I totally get that there is nothing "structurally" wrong with me etc, but to me that conceptually doesn't translate to "there is nothing wrong with me physically, period." Does that make sense?
Sort of – but the fact that there are physical changes doesn't mean that there is anything fundamentally wrong. The point is that those physical changes are caused by the mind rather than having a “physical” cause.
quote:
I also wonder how people feel about using medicine (in my case alternative medicine) to work on the symptoms as long as one is aware that the mental work has to fight the cause.
There's no straight answer to that – it's more of an individual thing. If the symptoms are bad, then use whatever helps, especially in the beginning, and try and come off them slowly. I find that it takes a lot of mental energy to “think psychologically” and pain drains your mental energy, hence it's better if you can avoid that pain in the initial stages, either through pain-killers or by avoiding the activity which seems to cause it. Then come off them slowly / gradually go back to the activity which you associate with causing the pain. That's more or less what Sarno recommends, too. Some people go cold turkey / back to full activity straight away and it works for them, but I recommend the more cautious method because there's a danger that you can become discouraged if it doesn't work.
quote:
I also wonder what you guys think about making changes in one's life (e.g. try to make it less stressful etc). Is that helpful or is it a mistake to focus on any of these "external" things rather than working on the mind itself?
It's not usually necessary in order to get rid of the pain ... but anything which makes you happier can never be a bad thing!
Hilary N |
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