| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| gezondheid |
Posted - 05/28/2008 : 05:06:31
Hi all,
I know the knowledge of Dr. Sarno now over a year. I red HBP in march 2007 and that was for me the real first syntheses between my of and on backpain and processes in the mind.
Mostly i have no pain . My pattern so far is twice a year a major setback and a lot of fear. This has been going on for about 13 years. My bad luck has been that the treatments always where physical based. And i believed that.
I actually learned avoiding because there was something with my back but nobody knows what. That "something"has got me balled up for about the same 13 years. The last 1,5 years my situation got worse, more setbacks.
This is all of course as a result of stress, my personality, anxiety/fear for my back and a hidden burn out from 5/6 years back. I'am not gonna bother you much more with my situation.
What my problem is with the Sarno stuff is the distraction. Distraction has became the major focus in his work (MPB, HPB TDM). Also spin off writers are revering to that. Everything seems to be a distraction. But what i'am feeling in relation to TMS is fear. One can say this is a distraction and end of the story. Let's start digging again. But my question would be according to distraction and
hidden feelings/emotions the next:
- Why does my wife has not these symptoms, -
- why not my boss who is under constant pressure,
- why can my mother of 75 sit for 5 ours in the garden and stand up with no pain,
- why can my sister who has no background of sports and who is as fragile as a leaf sit 12 ours on a day and have no problems,
- why do people who have had more **** in their youth don't or rarely have symptoms,
- why can people after 30 years doing nothing take up a sport and have no symptoms,
-why can older people walk for ours and sit after that for ours in a cafe and have no symptoms, etc, etc?????????????????????????????????????? They also must have repressed emotions.
Everybody represses and that mechanism must be in a way the same for everybody. So you live your life repressing here and there and from one moment these emotions basically cripple you. In other people the mechanism must be the same but symptoms never keep around that long.
Look at sportcoaches, they are under pressure but most of them are living normally. What i 'am trying to say is that this distraction mechanism in this world should be much more at work in other people.
I don't see that.
Also when i want to do things that i like and that are out of my avoidingprison the fear and sometimes the pain starts. WHY ON EARTH WOULD SOMETHING I LOVE DOING SHOULD BE BLOCKED BY PAIN AS A DISTRACTION FOR A HIDDEN EMOTION. I GIVE MY ARM TO RUN AGAIN BUT I'AM SIMPLY NOT THERE YET,FEAR.
Could it be that FEAR is the major killer in this game (thank you HILLBILLY). All those people who are cured soon they must also have hidden ****, i can not believe that all the people who have a major struggle with TMS are all unconsciously so screwed up that they must be liberated from that emotional burden. The problem is when the symptoms linger on and you start to see yourself that way.
I'am not trying to say that emotions don't play a role at all. They play a major role in our lives and responses. And i don't have the answer. For that I refer to the brilliant topic from Hillbilly named science or sarno
He made a real study of this and i haven't.
But reading some posts from people who keep falling back and my own feeling/situation made me write this topic. Because Sarno was all i had after years of focusing on the physical(with almost no succes) i thought this is it. Well it is it but for about 60%. But dropping a part of this successful theory also scares me, again fear.
Maybe this discussion has been done for many times but i just wanted to post it here to see if i'am alone in this and how other people see this.
I made a small grid that i want to share with you. I hope i can learn from the responses because i want to return to normal and fear and doubt are in my opinion the major obstacles.
GRID
1 ACCEPT FULLY THAT THERE IS NOTHING PHYSICALLY WRONG, I'AM OKE
ACCEPT THAT THE MIND CAUSES PAIN IN THE BODY
2 THINK PSYCHOLOGICAL/EMOTIONAL/BE AWARE OF STRESS/FEAR
A- FEAR, DEAL WITH THAT IN RELATION WITH SYMPTOMS
FACING, ACCEPTING,FLOATING, LETTING GO AND TIME PASS (CLAIRE WEEKES)
B- DON'T FOCUS ON SYMPTOMS
C- DON'T ADD SECOND FEAR, SCENARIO THINKING
D- WHAT IS BOTHERING YOU, WHAT ARE YOUR STRESSORS
E- STOP TENSING/RELAX AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE IN DAILY LIFE
F- BE AWARE OF ALL YOUR NOCEBO KNOLEDGE
G- KNOW YOUR NONSENSE THOUGHTS ABOUT YOUR SYMPTOMS, WRITE THEM DOWN AND REPLACE THEM
H- BE AWARE OF YOUR REPETITIVE NEGATIVE THOUGHTS IN GENERAL AND SLOWLY REPLACE THEM
I- TRY TO BE MINDFULL/IN THE NOW/DETACH FROM YOUR PERMANENT THINKING
J- ALLOW AL NEGATIVE FEELINGS AND THOUGHTS AND LET THEM PASS
K- STOP AVOIDING WHEN POSSIBLE, NO PRESSURE
L- HAVE A DAILY NOTION OF WHAT YOU WANT IN LIFE, NOT WHAT YOU DON'T WANT
M- selftalk,journaling, relaxation/meditation, outlet for anger
The list above is not new but maybe good to review. Sometimes i think recovery is much simpler than we want to believe. Is it fear and the bodily responses to that in a tic toc way or must we dig deeper and deeper and maybe find a cause.
Whish you all well.
Greetings Gezondheid
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| 14 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| gezondheid |
Posted - 05/30/2008 : 13:48:23
hi Sandhya,
Vreest means dread or to be afraid of. So in a way you fear the fear. In our case we fear the pain. Again i hope you red hillbillies post science or Sarno. This post got me thinking more in this direction and in a way
opened a different mindset about TMS because i got stucked with repression and destraction.
Greetings Gezondheid
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| sandhya |
Posted - 05/30/2008 : 12:37:03
hi all
Just wanted to say how much I appreciate this thread.
Gezondheid, I struggle with the same thing. You put my bumbling, rambling thoughts on this subject into such clear and articulate words...thank you!
Dave and others, I will keep pondering your responses...this is so fascinating.
THanks again - a
p.s. Gezondheit, what does "vreest" mean? |
| gezondheid |
Posted - 05/30/2008 : 11:09:34
Hi Dave,
in answer to your question about the causing of symptoms i would like to say that i question if the mind on purpuse causes symptoms to distract me. Maybe i did not discribed that correctly.
I think the mind causes symptoms(more in an automatic way via the nervoussystem) because of how we think, feel and live our life. The symptoms are a resultant of anxiety, heavy stress etc and manifest in the body. And if you don't watch out the symptoms become patterns because how we think about our symptoms. I don't think a pattern is a distraction. But again that is my view and my struggle with the distraction part of the theory.
Your recovery grid is something i can fully accept and overanalysing is also not going to do the job. I can see that.
Thanks for your attention
Greetings Gezondheid
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| Dave |
Posted - 05/30/2008 : 08:29:18
quote:
Originally posted by gezondheid
As i see it the treatment should be on 2 levels. 1-reconditioning the mindbodypattern of pain which actually lives in your system, mostly fueled by fear. Simply said, accept that you have nothing and live life as normal as possible. Setbacks are ONLY because of the pattern or to much stress. Slowly reconditioning will do the job.
2- will be (or first) looking at the origin why this all started; our thinking, feeling, repressing, stress etc.
This is 100% consistent with the treatment methods suggested by Dr. Sarno.
quote:
In this model the distraction as a direct causer of symptoms is not at play.
This I don't understand. What does the treatment method have to do with the cause of symptoms? Regardless of how you interpret the theory, the treatment is the same.
Also, I do not know if it is a communication issue or a lack of understanding, but "distraction as a direct cause of symptoms" is not accurate. The mind creates the symptoms to keep you distracted so that you do not focus on the underlying emotional causes (i.e. #2 above).
Your message reads like a psychology textbook. Again I have to reiterate that analysis and intellectualization have no bearing on recovery. I'm not sure you fully understand the distraction part of the equation, or if you are just not articulating your thoughts well, but in any case it doesn't matter. The treatment method is the same in any case.
1. Repudiate the structural diagnosis.
2. Resume normal physical activity.
3. Explore the underlying emotional causes.
IMO, trying to make it more complicated, or disputing the finer details of TMS theory, is counterproductive. |
| gezondheid |
Posted - 05/30/2008 : 04:58:44
Hi all, thanks for your reactions,
Dave, you are right that the fear lingers on because i still have not fully embodied the fact THAT THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH ME. On that point you are right. I have to recondition almost 13 years of thinking and acting the other way. I know this will be achieved, but as you mentioned it can take some time.
Your statement about the uncounscious that is in a way where my problem lies.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
The unconscious mind will sieze every opportunity to steer you off the course and back to the physical realm.
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Because if distraction is a "conscious" act of the unconscious and is always in a way trying to distract me from hidden things than tms people are dealing with an hidden intelligence with its own agenda. Again this causes fear because in a way you never know when it will strike, what is the hidden emotion and you never know if the pain is due to a pattern/conditioning or something deep inside. To be short, it fuels the fear and doubt and how to proceed.
But if tms pain is due to the pattern that has been formed up in the mindbodysystem than the story is different. Your last phrase is more in that style. The treatment can be much more focussed on reconditioning. Of course this pattern has his origin in all the things Sarno has mentioned, stress, hidden stress, personality, anxiety, noceboknoledge and unsolved hidden things in the unconscious. They built the pattern of pain by permanent overload of the human system. And of course one has to remodel lifestyle, stresscooping, trashthinking etc. And the fear is only the fear for pain, not a distraction because of whatever. As i red Sarno he mentions fear also as a defense mechanisme in absence of pain.
As i see it the treatment should be on 2 levels. 1-reconditioning the mindbodypattern of pain which actually lives in your system, mostly fueled by fear. Simply said, accept that you have nothing and live life as normal as possible. Setbacks are ONLY because of the pattern or to much stress. Slowly reconditioning will do the job.
2- will be (or first) looking at the origin why this all started; our thinking, feeling, repressing, stress etc.
In this model the distraction as a direct causer of symptoms is not at play. (you can of course distract yourself)
I think this is more acceptable and also reaps all doubt about which emotion is now giving me this havoc. The stress/emotion is the cause but the workings are different and the treatment can be different.
My unconscious is not my enemy but is unfortunately printed and can be rewritten. Thats all up to me and the proper treatment.
Hillbilly,
Thanks for the advise. I'am at this moment trying to break the circle
of avoiding. A bit in a way you prescribe. But i will do it slow. I just can not handle a lot at this moment. Also this whole thing of distraction and repression is wandering around my head for a while and i must make choice how to proceed.
I'am sorry to bother all of you with this but from the minute i have red Sarno distraction has been something that never really landed in me. What i have written above is how i think it can work. I'am just trying to puzzle out the fear/distraction thing that within the TMS theory in my opinion goes anywhere and for me is the knot in the whole thing.
De grootste angst is de angst die je vreest
(dutch saying)
Greetings Gezondheid
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| Hillbilly |
Posted - 05/29/2008 : 17:55:42
Dave,
quote:
Give no time frame to accomplishing them so that you don't beat yourself up with expectations.
Does the above sound like a track coach advising a sprinter or a marathoner? |
| JohnD |
Posted - 05/29/2008 : 16:29:07
Nothing wrong with having fear. Its better to have fear and allow it and accept it then to be at with it. It will go away over time as you continue to do the work. |
| Dave |
Posted - 05/29/2008 : 11:41:12
quote:
Originally posted by Hillbilly
Make sure you chart your progress...
IMO this is counterproductive. It treats recovery like a sprint rather than a marathon. I believe taking a long-term view is critical, with a confidence that if you continue doing the work, recovery will come. |
| Hillbilly |
Posted - 05/29/2008 : 09:13:09
Gez,
How about writing a list of things that you don't do or feel that you cannot do now due to the pain you are in. Then list them from easiest to most difficult. Give no time frame to accomplishing them so that you don't beat yourself up with expectations.
Slowly do one or two each day until you build a tolerance for the pain. It is harmless ad must be viewed as such because you have been given to freedom for conservative treatment by your doctor. Two months should make a huge difference in your life if you don't give in to the doubts.
Make sure you chart your progress and do not dismiss an initial gain because you feel bad during or after a particular activity. But get enthused about this or you will shrink away in defeat and think your condition isn't like everyone else's. Your pain is special, more excruciating, more constant, or any other kind of nonsense you can think of. And throw away your Sarno books. They aren't helpful anymore because reading the same passages that bring doubt to your mind is reinforcing the doubt.
Best of luck. |
| Dave |
Posted - 05/29/2008 : 07:47:55
quote:
Originally posted by gezondheid
...But fear as a distraction i don't know...
I don't believe this is an accurate characterization of the TMS theory.
Don't get stuck on the distraction aspect. The fear of symptoms is not a symptom; this is circular reasoning. The fear arises from doubt -- a lack of belief that the symptoms are psychogenic. If you truly believe that the symptoms are benign then there is no reason to fear them. When they appear, you simply ignore them and refocus your thoughts to the psychological realm.
The fear is often more difficult to banish than the symptoms because it is natural to have some doubt. The unconscious mind will sieze every opportunity to steer you off the course and back to the physical realm.
The point about overanalysis is a good one. No matter how much we intellectualize the TMS process, it does not help recovery. In fact, the process of analysis can be seen as a distraction itself. It keeps us focused on the symptoms and their cause.
The most important part of recovery is reconditioning. For this process, the details of the theory are irrelevant. It is simply a matter of breaking a bad habit that your body and mind have developed over the course of your lifetime. That takes focus, discipline, and time. |
| gezondheid |
Posted - 05/29/2008 : 06:36:53
Well,
Thanx Swmr1 great that you can live your life as you want it.
I don't know if we are on the same vibe but thanks for you reply Amyajj.
Your conclusion about the projection towards other people is well known to me. I spent last year doing a lot of psychostuff. I have written everything down, spoke with professionals about it, journaling feeling excercises etc, red a lot of tms books. If i did the WORK who knows? I don't want to be arrogant but i know what my pressures, personality traits, youth, etc are. I studied it a lot. Point is that the fear remains. So one can accept according to Sarno that there is still a distraction and so of course there must be more that is hidden.
Actually i don't know that anymore. To me that road feels like digging because of digging. My major question is does the distractiontheory as a purpose really exist. Because if it doesn't than you keep searching for years and find things but don't solve your pain/fear.
Yes i do think the pain is because of to the mind but couldn't the working be different. Why is it that we all have fear for resuming normal activity. So treating fear as a result of severe symptoms is another treatment than searching for repressed stuff because of a distraction. Of course one should solve the stress related problems, emotions, your other fears/anxiety and coop better with these things. But is the fear gone than?
ACL,
My point is does this distraction exists. Your opinion about over analysis is right but that is not were i'am coming from. Basically
to get rid of the fear i seriously ask if the Sarno method is the right one. It is ,i think, when you say resume all activity and stop avoiding. But fear as a distraction i don't know. Thats why i gave all the examples, they probably have no or less fear.
Next to fear i'am much more in touch with my feelings, i'am relaxter
and fortunately no severe forms of pain at this moment. I was tested several times and nothing structural was found. And yes i fit the TMS personality just fine. Fear remains at this moment (mostly when my back feels sore etc).
Enfin i made my point
Angst is een slechte raadgever
(dutch saying)
Greetings Gezondheid
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| armchairlinguist |
Posted - 05/28/2008 : 15:19:09
First, you are ignoring what Sarno himself says about fear, that fear of the symptoms, fear of hurting themselves, is the primary factor that inhibits recovery.
Second, Sarno's distraction theory doesn't just mean that you are distracted. It basically means that the presence of the pain sets up a secondary emotional life for you. You have lots of emotions, but they are all focused around the pain, instead of around your real emotions. Thus the pain 'distracts' you from your real emotions, by taking up your attention entirely.
Your overanalysis here is another classic example of distraction. Stop thinking so much about the theory and how small irrelevant details within it don't make sense to you and put it to work for you!
By the way, one reason not everyone has TMS is that there are three main causes of TMS: trauma in infancy and childhood, personality-based pressures, and the stresses of everyday life. Lots of people do not have enough of one, two, or all the three factors to result in serious symptoms of TMS.
--
It's not 100% belief that's required, but 100% commitment. |
| AmyAJJ |
Posted - 05/28/2008 : 11:51:51
Maybe your mind/pain would find it comforting for you to remind it (along with your other reminders) that you are safe. Fear and safety issues are one of the things that I experience too. So in my TMS self-talk I remind my body/pain/emotions that we/I am safe.
I'd also suggest that if you want to stop scaring yourself and feeling fearful, that pay less attention to what's going on for other people, and more attention at what's going on with you.
If you look at that list of questions about why it's not happening to other people in the same way it's happening to you, those are all things you're focusing on in other people.
You need to take care of yourself. Yes, you're afraid and those questions you're asking yourself about others are scaring you and bringing up fear, but what THEY are doing isn't really of consequence to you. This could even be some of the perfectionist stuff that Sarno talks about. Like why am I so afflicted and they're so perfect in how their body handles stress. It's like you're stuck on the idea that something is wrong with you or that you're cursed or have gotten the raw end of the deal by having TMS pain in the way that you do when others aren't.
So part of the distraction that seems to be happening is that you're focusing on others and what their bodies are doing or how they're reacting to things and you're not focusing on you, ya? You're looking at their pain instead of your pain. Their symptoms instead of your symptoms. Does that click for you?
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| swmr1 |
Posted - 05/28/2008 : 11:06:16
quote:
Could it be that FEAR is the major killer in this game (thank you HILLBILLY)
Boy, has this been my experience. I like your list. I keep meaning to get on here and talk about my experience of late. Perhaps I will sometime this week. But, in short, I have found that fear has everything to do with my symptoms. If I notice something, recognize that it's there and decide that I won't fear it until I have true reason to, it goes away. The more I believe in my own body and its amazing powers to heal itself, the better I feel. And part of convincing myself of my body's strength is pushing it. The more I push, the stronger I feel and the less doubt and fear I have. |
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