| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Hillbilly |
Posted - 03/05/2008 : 11:34:41
quote:
Lastly, I have an assignment for someone who talks to Dr. Sarno. Please ask the man himself why he thinks that TMS operates outside the world of anxiety disorders (again, not the emotion anxiety, but the identified, accepted labels in the DSM-IV, just to make it easier for understanding). What research has he done to reject that explanation? Ask him why Dr. Brady and Dr. Schubiner are explaining the physiological aspects differently and if he has seen their research and to give his opinion. Why the change to myoneural in the syndrome name after all these years of amazing success? Why does he now think the nerves are the primary tissue? Ask him if he can record your conversation to be played here or on your website so that the presumptive bias is not at play. Others may add to this list. This would be a very good use of this forum in my opinion. The goal is healing for sufferers, not defense of theories. I would love to hear his reactions. If Dr. Sarno won't cooperate, perhaps one of the others will. I would love to hear it.
I asked some very pointed questions about theoretical stuff that in my opinion would be of use to many who visit here and flounder for months or even years due to their confusion. Confusion simply adds up to more stress and is a large obstacle on the road to accepting the diagnosis, which, I think nearly everyone would agree is essential to recovery. These are by no means the only questions out there, so perhaps people can add to the thread for a week or so, let one of Dr. Sarno's patients call him up and ask them and post or otherwise publish the results.
After all, the vast, vast majority of his patients will never see him or any other TMS doc. They have to rely on books and this forum and a few other scant resources. See if he'll cooperate. Shouldn't take more than 15 minutes or so. There are even people who visit this forum who understand all the technology about websites and such, so perhaps the material could be published there in word form or an audio file. Maybe Ken at the office who sells the DVD's could do this since he sees him frequently. Here's to your health! |
| 20 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Wavy Soul |
Posted - 05/12/2010 : 22:55:45
This is great stuff to read - thanks to all.
I haven't been here for a while - have had SO MANY other stresses that symptoms have been minimal. Then they took center stage for a while. Jeez - I am going to a gastro doc tomorrow because I've had such scary stomach pain. But come to think of it, my back feels better since this pain came on...
AND I'm anxious (and I do get that Hillbilly is not just talking about ANXIETY, but about a whole paradigm, anxiety disorder or functional illness).
Thanks for writing all this. I appreciate Hillbilly's advocation and also Alexis' both/and explanation which makes a lot of sense to me.
Love is the answer, whatever the question |
| Hillbilly |
Posted - 05/07/2010 : 22:12:42
guej,
Try to notice times when the pain lessens and what you are doing. Close observation will convince you that the pain isn't a solid thing, but an ebb and flow that corresponds with tension. Notice if you feel more pain when you are doing something that requires a good deal of focus, say work for pay versus chatting with a friend or sending a casual email. And if you are intimidated when you sit down in anticipation of the pain to follow, you are already in a state of inner tension. Try to relax your body consciously and see if it helps. You have to catch yourself in the act of tensing, which isn't easy because it has become your normal way of doing things.
But carry on always without worry about the bedtime routine. That can get a cycle going that will just add to the problem. As a palliative measure, I used to stretch out flat on the floor with my knees up and arms in the "don't shoot" position and do some deep breathing until the tension melted away before I got in bed.
I hate quotations. Tell me what you know.
Ralph Waldo Emerson |
| guej |
Posted - 05/05/2010 : 13:44:37
Hillbilly,
What you write about the de-conditioning process is something that I've read in lots of books and posts. It seems perfectly logical. The exaggerated responses to inocuous stimuli make no sense. For example, every time I sit at my computer, whether it be to work or just to chat on email, I develop neck and should pain within minutes. Completely ridiculous. Clearly nothing physically wrong with sitting at a computer, and I imagine, it is very similar to what occurs with RSI symptoms.
In addition to the non-stop pain in my lower back, when I was in the throes of the worst pain, I started developing the neck pain. I"m sure it was due to trying to get work done while in pain, which was causing me tons of additional stress. Anyway, my brain and nervous system have clearly made the link, and now I'm "stuck" with this maladaptive response. This had been going on for months..
I've tried the whole talk to the brain thing, ignoring it, etc. Not making much headway. This is total conditioning, at it's worst. And yes, I'm definitely exploring the emotional baggage, etc, and that's certainly part of the big picture, but this particular symptom feels like all conditioning. For the past few weeks I've really been employing a "oh well" mentality every time it comes, and not thinking of the neck pain as anything long-term threatening. I just keep typing away or browsing the internet regardless. I can't give up the computer for life! The problem I have is that once activated, the pain just sticks around, making it hard to sleep at night too. I don't want to "reward" the pain behavior by constantly getting up from the computer, but pushing through it makes it worse. I don't seem to be getting the "fade over time" end result that certainly makes sense. What am I missing? Any thoughts? |
| Hillbilly |
Posted - 05/05/2010 : 09:24:14
Alexis,
Your description of avoidance behavior is apt for helping define "disorder." At what point does this behavior become a problem? That is key. It isn't the turning on of the TV that is the problem, but rather the avoidance of the ennui, fear, anger, frustration, or whatever that manifests itself with the activity avoided. This is absolutely present in every case of TMS I have heard reported as well as PTSD, OCD, panic disorder and specific phobia, all of which, as I have stated again and again, fall neatly under established rubrics for anxiety disorder. No, disorder isn't one avoidance, but a pattern of behavior matched with a symptom or symptoms. If repeated over and over, it interferes with functioning.
The TV show about OCD patients that was on last year is a great illustration. The effective therapists explained that the activity itself wasn't the problem, but the symptoms caused by the thoughts of the patient toward the activity. So, they worked slowly with "interoceptive exposure," (see you're on the airplane and you aren't dead type thing). It is no different from Sarno's admonition to go back to normal activity, including vigorous activity, to break the control the symptoms have on your behavior by exposing yourself to pain or discomfort and realizing that you can accomplish things despite the pain, palpitations, dizziness or gurgling bowel.
All of these diagnostic labels have the commonality of avoidance of symptoms and associated activities. But we all know how absurd it is to believe that sitting in a car in your driveway is dangerous. Yet there are many who won't do it because they get symptoms. The symptoms are associated with sitting in a car, and therefore, sitting in a car must be dangerous because my body sends out fearful reactions when attempted. Agoraphobiacs think it is dangerous to go outside the home because everytime they do, they get symptoms, react to them fearfully, and so they work up a panic attack.
TMS or pain patients avoid long sitting, bending, or whatever. Once the activity is restored, they are no longer controlled by the symptoms, the pain is accepted as temporary, and life goes on as before with an eventual lessening or fading of symptoms. The key to overcoming them is realizing what they are and carrying on with your life's responsibilities whether it hurts or not.
So long as there remains any avoidance the condition is not "cured," but most people have found that they are back to most activities relatively soon if they go gradually and don't cave and begin to avoid again. I still struggle with anxiety over speaking publicly, so I force myself to do it and don't let myself brood about not being Mark Antony. I simply accept my shaking legs and throat tightness as an old conditioned response to worry about how people perceive my performance. If I think about my symptoms while I am talking, I'll doubtlessly experience that which I truly fear, and no doubt the cause of my symptoms: humiliation, being looked down upon.
I don't think we are far from common ground, but I think I would like to hear more about your conscious conjuring of symptoms when faced with an unpleasant circumstance. You say this is a common theme here, but you are the only person I have ever read that has experienced this. Are you saying that your foot didn't hurt before at all, but faced with an annoyance, you can make your foot hurt so you don't have to think about the annoyance?
I hate quotations. Tell me what you know.
Ralph Waldo Emerson |
| catspine |
Posted - 04/19/2010 : 03:18:34
discarded |
| Hillbilly |
Posted - 04/18/2010 : 12:04:31
Alexis,
Your continued insistence that your symptoms are there to distract you is not dispositive. You have previously described your symptoms as moving around in an attempt to distract you.Now, short of querying your symptoms to ascertain their intention, how on earth can you prop up this claim? I believe you are describing the EFFECT very nicely. This is in no way different from the "nervous illness" camp.
Weekes says that people are suffering because their nerves "have tricked them, duped them," and that this bewilderment leads to more confusion, more rumination, more stress, which keeps the nerves overloaded and unhappy, sending out vibrations that are unpleasant, but wholly innocuous. If this did not happen to you, if you didn't believe there was something "wrong," that didn't resolve until you stopped adding worry and fuel to it, then you have indeed had a unique experience. I encourage you to get with a doctor or psychologist and write a book outlining your experience and describing it in detail. And that is not sarcasm.
I hate quotations. Tell me what you know.
Ralph Waldo Emerson |
| catspine |
Posted - 04/15/2010 : 16:59:01
Hi Hillbilly
Thank you. As I expected your answer came back honest and smart and in line with your style which as you already figured out is often what generates so many different emotions on this forum. I appreciate your honesty about what you get back from posting and I do not have a problem with that, it’s fair and you’re grateful for it.
As far as people using this forum for selling something within the guide lines of the forum policy I’d rather look at it in terms of freedom for everyone as long as people get what they need from them for what they pay if they decide to do so. Here is what I was told shortly after moving to the US when I found it strange that practically everything in this country was based on profit and making money: America is a free country and the way it works is buyer beware take it or leave it !
Compared to what I was used to it came as a shock with a degree of resentment from lack of an open mind on my part ( after all as long as it’s not shoved down my throat and there is an alternative to it balance exist and it’s my choice ) but I knew I had to take this into consideration for what it really was: a piece of advice in order to avoid these options if I did not want to fall for them myself. There was a lot to be learned. I soon realized life was gonna be more stressful than usual for a while. So I do understand what you mean when you talk about being forceful. Sometime we do not hear as well as we should and a different tune can do it that's alright.
About being forceful the evidence that the method works for some is not to be refuted more than the method of being gentle does work too it’s probably a matter of preferences and opinion as you say but if I get the point you’re often trying to make that anxiety is not to be treated like TMS and appears to be a different condition even if it is hard to discern I can understand your frustration and your insistence.
I tend to agree with that considering that as there is often a percentage of symptoms still present after the TMS problem has gone away. The TMS theory or the one who wrote it gets blamed for the left over of the symptoms because the difference between TMS and anxiety is not clear or often the two are taking place simultaneously or/and overlap. I explain that by the fact that I believe that tension creates fear or anxiety originally and not the other way around so it can be that anxiety sets in as an effect of TMS and remains untreated as such with purely anxiety symptoms and of course the TMS theory doesn’t touch it. In addition but secondary to it anxiety will create more tension and so on with a snow ball effect leading to more hard to discern symptoms and confusion.
I read many of your posts but not all of them so maybe you’ve done it already in which case I’ll have to read more but for those who doubt or are confused maybe you would accept to write an explicit note about the differences in the symptoms under both conditions as you perceived them in your experience with possibly a comparison with one another where it is crucial. I’m certain I’m not the only one very interested in that. I know it means a lot of work and that symptoms differ from one person to the next but there must be something that’s more typical in one condition than the other. Please post the link to the page if you already did it.
As for the belief in one theory or the other and the emotions attached to that a such post would likely cool off the heat and take care of the matter for good I suppose.
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| Hillbilly |
Posted - 04/13/2010 : 13:15:59
Catspine,
I could probably have more fans than foes if that was important to me, but all that really matters is that some here have regained their normal health and normal life patterns in part (however small or large) because I chose to come back to this forum. That gives me an enormous amount of satisfaction. I believe (rightly or wrongly, again it's a matter of opinion) that I need to be forceful if I am going to be of aid to anyone. Why? Because fear is so overwhelming, doubt so imprisoning. I know these things because I lived them. Motivation and reassurance are necessary and powerful. Again, my not-so-humble opinion.
I ask you to take a look at the forum as a whole and see that there are many here who have gained a good deal of insight into their own struggles, and there are even some who have written their thanks for things that I have written. That is very gratifying, but at the same time humbling, because I borrowed, stole and plagiarized from those whose words helped me along the way. I simply synergized it in a way that made sense to them.
The quotation you pulled makes more sense in the context of the fact that there are several people who visit here who have books for sale, therapy sessions for which they are paid, offer phone consultations, etc. I find this repugnant, but don't object because they are free to do whatever is allowed on the forum. When Dave has objected to me, I have relented. But I still have good wishes for the health and well-being of everyone here. I just blow off some steam on my keyboard from time to time. It's good not to swallow that stuff, I hear :o)
I hate quotations. Tell me what you know.
Ralph Waldo Emerson |
| patils |
Posted - 04/12/2010 : 11:20:05
I too have passed throgh these sleepless states but now a days I sleep like a baby. So deep and relaxing.
My practise of meditation has helped me great and I have succeeded in removing unnecessary attachment with this world and result is peace.
Not even the deepest sleep will give you such a rest as meditation can. The mind goes on jumping even in deepest sleep. Just those few moments in meditation your brain has almost stopped. … You forget the body. … You feel such pleasure in it. You become so light. This perfect rest we will get in meditation.
These are sayings of Swami Vivekananda. One of greatest intellectual, world has seen. This poem is also composed by him and has deep meaning.
Who can sleep like me ?
This whole wide earth my bed,
My beautiful pillows my own two arms,
My wonderful canopy the blue sky,
And the cool evening air to fan me,
The moon and the stars my lamps,
And my beautiful wife, Renunciation, by my side, What king is there who can sleep like me in pleasure?
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| sborthwick |
Posted - 04/12/2010 : 09:01:24
Thank you Panda and Guej...the Goodnight to Insomnia book is very effective in this regard. I agree with Guej. I have been restricting the time I go to bed and getting up at the same time at 6:30 am each morning. Consequently, I fall asleep much quicker than I have and there is no tossing and turning and obssessing about sleep. What a huge relief and freedom. I like knowing that if I don't sleep...it doesn't matter. Nothing terrible will happen - will just be a bit tired. So what! |
| guej |
Posted - 04/09/2010 : 14:59:36
Hi Panda,
What you wrote is exactly the method recommended in "Say Goodnight to Insomnia". The purpose being to limit the time you spend tossing and turning in bed "trying" to go to sleep, which just reinforces your bed as a trigger for non-sleep. Same conditioning theory as in pain being triggered by certain places or postures, etc. It worked for me (with the insomnia, at least!). It's not perfect, but now I don't even bother going to bed until almost midnight, and I get up around 6:30-7:00. I'd love to go to bed earlier and sleep later, but that's just not what my body is doing right now, so I"ve stopped fighting it. In time, I hope to move that midnight timeframe back to 11:00 pm and so on. I used to go to bed at 10:00pm and say to myself, ok, I'm going to really try to fall asleep now. I'd be lying there until 1:00 am frustrated, tossing, turning, and then the adrenaline would really be running through my veins.
This book was very helpful. It doesn't work for me 100% of the time, but it's a lot better than it used to be. Most of all, I'm not stressing over lack of sleep, even if it is aggravating sometimes. There's only so much I can deal with at once (pain, insomnia, etc). Now I feel like this is one less thing to worry about. |
| pandamonium |
Posted - 04/09/2010 : 11:00:17
I saw a great documentary about insomnia last year, they cured a guys insomnia ironically by restricting his sleep. It might be worth a try although you'd probably need to take a week off work to do it. I remember the guy had to get up when his alarm went off at 7am even if he'd only fallen asleep at 6am, and his kids were dragging him out of bed. I can't find the documentary online but here's a description of what they did:
What is sleep restriction therapy?
Answer:
One possible treatment option for insomnia seems to be paradox: You should try to restrict you sleeping time! This can help to reduce the time you spend awake in your bed and all the worrying about the problems to fall asleep. Restriction of sleep will cause you to become tired again and to establish new routines to fall asleep.
Usually one starts sleep restriction therapy at first with only a very short period of sleep during the night. Then this time will increase until a normal sleeping time is achieved.
To start this kind of treatment you have to stick to a strict regime and stay awake even if you feel sleepy or have problems to spend the time in the late evening. If you start with a sleeping time of 4 hours you would have to stay up until 2 or 3 am if you decide to go up at 6 or 7 in the morning. And this not only for normal working days but also weekend or public holidays. If you find sleep for this short period you can increase the sleeping time by 15 or 30 min until you finally reach a normal sleeping time according to your personal needs.
Don't go to bed until you feel sleepy, even if this is later than your normal bedtime.
Set your alarm clock to wake you about 6.30 am, even if this means you only get a few hours sleep for the first few nights.
If you don't fall asleep within 30 minutes, get up until you feel sleepy again.
Avoid napping during the day, so that you are very tired at night.
As your sleep improves gradually go to bed earlier and continue to get up early so you get a full night's sleep and establish a regular routine.
Hope this helps someone.
Panda
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A beginner's guide to psychology: If it's not your mum's fault.... it's your dad's... |
| sborthwick |
Posted - 04/08/2010 : 14:05:47
I can definitely attest that Hillbilly's posts have been the turning point and aid to dealing with my anxiety problem. I think Hillbilly suggested Claire Weekes - who I am indebted to.
I hope that you will feel some reward, Hillbilly, knowing that you have helped me no end...after years of anxiety. I am watching my negative thoughts now and last night I achieved a good night. I am learning to practice losing the fear of the fear. It is not an overnight process but what a nice alternative to medication with its awful side affects and hundreds of dollars spent on wasted therapy.
I cannot thank you enough Hillbilly. |
| catspine |
Posted - 04/07/2010 : 19:04:35
quote:
From Hillbilly
I post this anonymously and have nothing to gain from it, not glory, not money, nothing.
Not exactly.
After having read many of your posts which are well documented and detailed it seems like you know a lot and paid the price to acquire the knowledge and that it helps when you got something someone else needs even if controversial sometimes but I think this statement really doesn't serve you well because it doesn't match your intelligence or your qualities.
Therefore I believe you may not be aware of it but you do have something to gain in here in spite of your statement as long as you still try to defend your point so fiercely or maybe it is that in your eyes one theory threatens the existence of the other and that your opinion must prevail in the eyes of the readers in order to secure your well being.
A truth is that people do things out of interest for benefits whatever the benefits might be but refuse to admit it, there is always a motive for an action in a particular context and the more elaborate the defense system and the skills used are the greater the benefits at stake usually are and of course the harder it gets to prove your point.
Whatever the reason my intention is not to embarrass you or to try to prove you wrong but rather to still have access to your experience without going through a battlefield.
A shadow cannot obscure the light it comes from but it can leave a few things in the dark and if I may suggest something your qualities can be much more helpful to others if you knew how to get your point across without trying to diminish the person you disagree with.
Personally I see many benefits in your posts and in Dr Sarno’s work as well and I use what works best leaving partisanship to politicians.
In Life everyday counts so if your true goal is to help others as I believe it is in spite of the shadow you may want to consider an approach that could win you more fans than foes or remove the limitations which ever works best for you although I believe you can probably do either one equally well… if you want to. Ultimately want it or not this takes you back to what you might get out of it.
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| sborthwick |
Posted - 04/07/2010 : 14:17:37
Thank you Guej....I have been reading that book over the last few days. Intellectually I get it....there is nothing wrong with me and it is the fear alone keeping me awake. For some reason, I am very slow to put this in practice. I am still bluffed by the fear.....maybe if I keep focusing on the outcome that it doesn't matter if I don't sleep....that is where I get stuck.
You see..I think it does matter. I feel tired and drag all day and am not as focused at work when I don't sleep. I can't pretend that I don't get these feelings so the fear of not sleeping keeps going. I know that I won't get any serious health problems....but I won't have as good a day....and I don't like that.
I have even adjusted my work in life to be much less challenging because I don't know if I am going to sleep or not and could never handle a demanding job. It is sad because I am smart and talented. This insomnia has ruled my life for the last 4 years or so.
I don't understand where it says in the book - that you will be fine with no sleep. I disagree entirely. Of course, there are no long term health affects....but a miserable day. Who wants a miserable day??
This is my dilemma. The absurd irony is the only reason I am not sleeping is because I keep dwelling on not sleeping........
So how do you turn the thoughts off??? I think Claire Weeks says to let them come and just ignore them....not get phased by them. Just like ignoring the back pain |
| guej |
Posted - 04/07/2010 : 13:19:42
I've been dealing with insomnia for about a year and half now (coinciding with chronic pain). Prior to the pain, I was a great sleeper. At first, I couldn't sleep because the pain was so intense, but over time, insomnia became a bad habit, just like the pain. Last December I read "Say Goodnight to Insomnia", and I have to say, it helped tremendously. The most important chapter, for me, was the one that basically convinced me that I wasn't going to die if I didn't get 8 hours of sleep. I worried way too much over lack of sleep. Same thoughts as you...."I won't be able to function", "My pain will be worse if I don't get enough sleep", "I need 8 hours of sleep a night"....Well, I can tell you that my pain goes up and down regardless of how much sleep I get. I function just fine. I now no longer worry that lack of sleep is going to cause cancer, immune deficiency, etc. Those were my fears.
The book was also very good in helping to understand that the more I try to fall asleep, the less likely it is I will. It laid out all my bad sleeping habits in print, and I could relate immediately to what I was doing wrong.
It's so interesting, because I found that the book is very similar to Sarno's philosophy about pain in that when we stop worrying so much about it, it won't be such an issue anymore. I'm no longer afraid of insomnia, and as a result, I sleep better. I probably get about 6 hours a night, without sleeping pills, which is huge for me considering I was on pills for over a year, and sometime sleeping 3-4 hours even with medication. My body has adjusted to less sleep. I still wish I could nod off in a minute and sleep 8 hrs like I used to, but my nervous system is still in overdrive. It is what it is. I can't say that I follow the instructions in the book to a tee (although I found them to be very helpful), but it helped me lose the fear. Good luck. |
| sborthwick |
Posted - 04/07/2010 : 12:20:40
Thanks Hillbilly.
I am sorry you received hatemail - how insane! I completely understand and appreciate all your valuable posts.
Maybe I should get the Low book. I often think of Week's words "don't be bluffed by a thought"
I do feel much more tired on teh job and think more slowly. However, it is true that I always get through the day. |
| Hillbilly |
Posted - 04/07/2010 : 12:17:30
quote:
I still think that if I won't sleep, I will be terrible at my job
Have you any evidence that this is true? Even a single time in all these years lying there wondering if you will sleep, has this thought ever come true? When life experience proves thoughts wrong, they must be given the same regard as the transient thoughts that enter our heads all day....barely a shrug of the shoulders. Low's books and groups have a saying: "Thoughts are not facts." Weekes says "don't be bluffed by a thought." And yet....
Sorry, I don't do phone consultations or email through this site. I used to, but then I got burned by a few who shared the address and my private correspondence with others, and I just got bombarded with questions and hate mail.
I hate quotations. Tell me what you know.
Ralph Waldo Emerson |
| sborthwick |
Posted - 04/07/2010 : 08:02:30
Ugh....Hillbilly. Last night was awful. I actually read your post on this thread at 1:30 when I was wide awake. I had too much caffeine in the afternoon and was talking too late on the phone....so I realize that doesn't help sleep.
I was not lying awake thinking about any stress in my life at all....just the same thought..."what if I don't sleep".
I have been reading the "Good night to Insomnia" and listening to the insomnia/hypnosis tapes.
However, I wonder if all this is confusing me. It seems that one thing and one thing alone will eliminate my insomnia.....losing the fear of it. Not caring one bit if I sleep or not. This is the challenge for me. I still think that if I won't sleep, I will be terrible at my job! Although many times I have survived fine on 4 hours at work. I feel tired and a little low and my focus isn't that good - but that is it.
Losing the fear of the fearful thoughts of not sleeping ....just like I lost the fear of the back pain and so it just went away. dur
I know I am a very healthy person and there is NO REASON why I wouldn't sleep. This has become a crazy obssession with me.
Do I just keep practicing? Hillbilly...I would love to talk to you or email you directly. Of course, I understand if this is not appropriate and asking too much of you. I want to hit this thing on the head once and for all and get on with my life. |
| sborthwick |
Posted - 04/06/2010 : 08:26:18
Thanks Hillbilly....so appreciate your words.
I am reading "Say goodnight to Insomnia" again - fantastic. I am so aware now that my negative thinking about sleep - which is completely ridiculous has been keeping me awake for years. I also just got 2 fantastic cds from Neurovision - unbelievable hypnosis tapes to help reinforce positive thinking about sleep and undo the obssessive negative thinking.I listened to one of them and actually fell asleep that night within 5 minutes.
I have never slept so soundly. It was extraordinary |
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