| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| MRosenthal |
Posted - 12/04/2004 : 14:52:41
I did not mean to cause an issue with the post below. I am just frustrated because I feel I have a hard time accepting that I cannot hurt myself or further injure myself when I am in pain. I know about conditioning. I just think it is weird that pain comes when it is cold outside and when it rains. I think it is strange that when I lift a heavy weight, my back flares up. I think it is strange that my pain gradually heals each time it flares up whether or not i think about emotional things. I just have a problem dealing with the fact that my pain does not change whether or not I read Sarno's books. It gets better and then flares up again at a later date when it wants. The worst thing I was told is that a herniated disk heals itself and then can be reaggravated with any physical activity. That is the part that bothers me. How do I know that when the pain goes away, it has not just temporarily healed. I am so afraid of the pain returning that I cannot do as much as I'd like. I am also stuck on the fact that herniated disks most likely don't cause pain. Why is he not certain? If his theory is correct that he should be completely confident that a disk is not causing pain. Please help. |
| 19 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Jim D. |
Posted - 12/08/2004 : 13:00:48
Jack,
Your comments about the importance of running to you and whether your pain is TMS-related reminded me of a quote from Fred Amir's Rapid Recovery from Back and Neck Pain:
"Besides working on the NordicTrack and swimming, I decided to begin a weight training program. As I prepared to work with the five-pound and ten-pound weights, an upper back muscle suddenly went into spasm. The subconscious definitely has a mind of its own. Somehow it knew that working out with weights would provide me with great confidence and strength, which would make it hard for my subconscious to make me believe that I am weak and use a physical problem as a defense mechanism. So it gave me pain to discourage me from working out." (p. 117)
Later (p. 127) he writes of pain from exercise: "I continued to wonder whether some actual physical injury had occurred because I moved up to heavier weights too early. Was it possible that the injury was a minor one and that my mind was blocking out the pain? And if I went back to weightlifting too soon, might I risk a serious injury?" He decides that he is experiencing TMS and goes on to say: "The real reason for the pain was a deep-seated anxiety that I might hurt myself during the weightlifting. This anxiety was reinforced by various books on the topic that discuss the possibility of serious injury during weightlifting."
If you substitute the word "running" for "weightlifting," Amir is dealing with some of the issues you mentioned in previous posts.
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| jack |
Posted - 12/08/2004 : 12:14:52
Tennis Tom:
Thanks. It is a tough quandry. I did not run for 8+ days. Yesterday I ran for 30 minutes and my groin/hip flexors hurt alot. So I am going to give it a rest for a little more time. I kind of feel that if I don't feel any improvement in 2 weeks time then I will have more direction. If it is "soft tissue" as most doctors would call it - shere should be some appreciable improvement.
My therapist totally believes in the mind/body stuff. She feels I use the running as a defense mechanism. I love running so much and I feel so angry, deprived, pissed, when I cannot run. Why doesn't this happen to all other runners? I think that because I love running sooo much that my body is giving me a sign. How come my neck doesn't hurt, my back doesn't hurt, my arms don't hurt, i don't have headaches - IT IS ALWAYS SOMETHING TO DO WITH MY LEGS so i cannot run. I just cannot believe that I am that physically weak that I always get hurt. SO I believe but I guess what holds me back from improving is THE WORK. Yes those two words - THE WORK.
Perhaps I come to this board to look for someone to tell me "okay Jack run through the pain"; the excuse to do that. Well I probably can run with the bad groin/pelvic pain but it won't go away because I am just using mind/body as an excuse and not doing THE WORK. I suppose I have to figure out for me what the work is.........
Tough stuff.
Thanks all.
Jack |
| tennis tom |
Posted - 12/08/2004 : 11:51:51
Dear Jack,
I have been in the same quandry as you are for nearly ten years. Stop doing or play/run through? My advice is give the "injury" a rest. If I had it to do all over again, I would have taken the two to four weeks off that always fixed all my other injuries. Whenever I would go to my family doctor for a sport injury he would dx it "soft tissue" and prescribe 2-4 weeks rest and it always healed in the prescribed time or less.
When I got my hip "injury", I was in the midst of a very psychologicaly traumatic and damaging relationship breakup. I was using sports to run away from it. I could not stop for psychlogical reasons, I needed the tension release that sports can deliever. I have vowed next time, given the same situation, "woman scorned", I will use a Jeep to make my get-away instead, much easier on the joints. I'll escape to the jungle, she hates bugs.
In retrospect, I rue not having done what had always worked: seeing my old-school family doc, who would have ordered me to give it a rest.
I recall during that period, I sustained three sports injuries. Several yoga stretches that were way beyond my flexibility ability and running backward for a short distance to "stretch things out". I didn't feel anything until the next day from the short backward run. That was probably a pure TMS trigger. I now think if you "reallly" injure something--pull, tear, sprain, strain--you will feel it in the moment, not the next day.
So if your looking for someone to tell you to rest it, I will. What's a couple of weeks to a month compared to the nearly ten years I've been dicking around with my "arthritic hip". Find a new interest to distract you. The time off will allow torn tissue to heal if it's a "real" injury or help the mind decondition from TMS. Whatever works short of cutting. |
| tennis tom |
Posted - 12/08/2004 : 10:47:44
JimD, I hate doing dishes too. I recently bought a compact portable dishwasher. It works great. You just hook it up to the kitchen sink faucet with a quick-disconnect. It does a better job than handwashing because it also heats the water to a higher temp. What sold me on it was the multi-tasking aspect, dishwashers are a good way to wash dirty baseball hats. They don't tear them up like washing machines do, and they come out smelling really nice. I don't wash the dishes and the hats together though. |
| Logan |
Posted - 12/08/2004 : 09:28:34
Thank you Tennis Tom, I always enjoy your posts as well.
I love this forum because here, unlike in real life, I am able to react to someone who challenges my belief system in a mature way. Instead of reacting with fear and anger, I can calmly state my case and maybe even persuade that person to see my side of things. Face to face, out in the world, it's a little harder for me to deal with conflict (hmm, why do I have TMS do you think?. :)
I think MR caused such a strong reaction here because he/she was voicing the nagging fear that many of us had at the beginning of our recovery and (to be honest) many of us, even the pain free, still have. We all have to contend with that sliver of doubt that arises when something threatens to "flare up." I hope MR understands that, that to get and stay well, you don't have to believe without ANY questioning. You just have to believe enough to commit to doing the work, the work (in my mind) is equally important to the acceptance of TMS as a concept. And I think that the acceptance can come on gradually as the work works.
Well, I've had my fun here, now it's off to finish writing my final papers for school. Can't wait for that work to be over with... |
| jack |
Posted - 12/06/2004 : 13:24:30
Jim D.
I understand your predicament. Was it the weight lifting that caused the pain and why does the pain go away when you stop weight lifting? That is something I cannot reconcile.
I have the same dilemma right now about running.
I run = pain. I stopped running for one week and pain has lessened. So now I am indecisive about what to do next. I am associating running with the pain -- coincidence - is that TMS working its magic?
Can some help Jim D and I?
Thanks |
| Tunza |
Posted - 12/06/2004 : 12:34:54
Jim - with regards to your elbow pain check out http://www.conquerrsi.com/ if you haven't already.
Also, consider how strong association can be. Not sure if you read my post about the experiment where people had asthma attacks triggered just from looking at a fake rose. Learning by association is a survival technique that is valuable for humans but TMS utilizes it to reinforce your fears and doubts.
I have a friend who like me has pain when she uses a computer (although I'm having some success some of the time now with reducing it). She has told me that there's been instances where she has no pain but as she approaches the computer and starts worrying about how painful the mousing will be the pain starts. This is even before she's sitting down. That's association for you.
So one possibility is that your mind-body knows that you need convincing that there's a physical cause so it's timing the pain around the weight lifting. Since your back pain was more random you found it easier to believe it was TMS.
This is only my thoughts based on what you've written though. Since I don't know your exact situation I don't if there's a chance that you did sustain and injury and it just needs a little more time to heal than the two days you mention you took.
Kat
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| plainchant |
Posted - 12/06/2004 : 12:33:45
Doubts are fine, Jimmy D., but our friend MRosenthal had the audacity to write a post with the subject line, A huge event proving Sarno is wrong! (I am still in deep shock about that). That wasn't doubt: that was an attack. Remember Dr. Sarno himself doesn't even waste time treating those who are hostile to the concept of TMS. It's a free country, MRosenthal is quite free to waste money and suffer for the rest of his life. I don't believe this site is for TMS skeptics; rather I think it for those who wish to exchange information and experiences about what they already know to be TMS. The last thing you need when you have a TMS condition is someone trying to sow doubt in your mind. Your mind is already desperately searching for a distraction. |
| Jim D. |
Posted - 12/06/2004 : 11:45:59
I think some are being a little harsh with MRosenthal. Who of us has not had doubts about the TMS theory from time to time? In fact, I am experiencing something of a relapse in dealing with elbow pain. As I have written previously, I am one of those who experienced an overnight cure from backache after reading one of Dr. Sarno's books. I became a believer: I have given his books to friends and have even advised others on this board. But I have to confess to doubts about my current elbow pain: After I do weight-training, it gets worse; when I stop for a couple of days, it gets better. That is exactly what a joint doctor would say: stop lifting weights and your tendon will heal. I had been encouraged by the fact that several months ago, the pain disappeared, even during workouts. Then just as quickly, it returned. I do the TMS work, but there is just no way of getting around the obvious (at least apparently obvious) connection between the exercise and the pain. My back pain did not have this kind of cause-and-effect appearance; in other words, the back would hurt when I had done nothing. Any suggestions would be welcome. There is a lesson in this recurrence: no one should be certain that TMS will go away once and for all--it might, but it might come back in another form. (As a footnote: These days I have very occasional back/shoulder flareups, but once I noticed these occurred only when I was doing the dishes after dinner--something I really dislike--I was able to laugh at the pain.) |
| tennis tom |
Posted - 12/06/2004 : 11:14:41
Logan and Baseball65, those were two of the best posts I've read on this board during the several years I've been here. I hope Matt is able to understand their relationship to the TMS work and the posts help him.
They were very honest and came straight from the heart. They are proof of the rich life that TMS honesty can offer. I've had many ups and downs trying to accept the TMS origin of my pain. It is difficult to disavow the physical origin of pain, especially having grown up in a culture based upon science.
It's like the age old question, which came first the chicken or the egg?--did the phsyical injury come first and then the TMS pain? It doesn't really matter. I have experienced an injury that became chronic TMS pain and also pain movement that had no rational physical injury source. |
| Logan |
Posted - 12/06/2004 : 01:18:17
MR, I understand your fear. I had similar fears myself after reading the Mindbody Prescription but at some point, you have to do what I and everyone here did which is to understand that the only thing you have to fear is fear itself. (Thank you Winston Churchill.)
You, like me when I first heard of Sarno, probably think that everyone here got miraculously better because they weren't really hurt, not hurt like you are hurt, they weren't damaged or physically flawed but that's just TMS whispering in your ear and you're listening to it. And the reason you're listening, it's because it is scarier to face what is under the pain than to live with the pain.
I know, you don't believe what I just wrote and you don't believe Sarno. YET. You are consciously thinking right now, "why would I want to be in pain? Of course, I want to get rid of this pain."
But that is not what your unconscious is feeling. It is feeling downright terror, it is so afraid of what will happen if you let all the fresh anger and the festering rage, all of the little sadnesses and the deep ancient sorrows out of the rusty padlocked box of your heart.
Your unconscious is not rational. It worries about stuff that you "know" is stupid. It worries that if your friends and loved ones knew about all these feelings you repress, suppress or deny (because you're a Westerner, because you're a man, because you're human), they would flee in terror.
It worries that if you start expressing anger, you might not be able to stop, you might get fired, you could get locked up in a loony bin, you could DIE, your heart could just burst and poof, and that's it you'll be dead. Your unconscious is so worried about "what will happen?!" that it will and can do almost anything to distract you and it is smart, it picked a place it "knew" was a place of concern, a place where'd you'd been injured before. Mine picked my neck after a car accident. Why? Because that is how TMS works.
What will happen if you try the methods many of us have tried? Nothing. Except you will be rid of your pain.
Just be open to the idea that SOME people MIGHT have TMS and MAYBE you are one of them. Just try that for now and accept that the fear is just fear. It's not reality any more than the pain is reality.
You know what opened the door of my mind just a crack, just enough to make me start to think there was something "funny" about how much pain I was in after my "fender bender"? A bull rider. I saw a bull rider on some tv show talking about how he was trampled by a bull and had his spine BROKEN in a couple of places and how he made his come back. He said he had a few aches and pains now and then but he was fine. That man was riding bulls again, my friend. And I, after getting rear ended in a car, was sitting on a couch with ice packs watching him on tv. What's wrong with that picture?
I didn't get better over night after reading the book; I was pissed off as all hell, but I repressed it. ;) I sort of wish Sarno would not have included mention of those who did because it puts a lot of pressure on you to have this miraculous recovery and then, if you don't, you worry, "oh, it didn't work on me, I must not have TMS." I kept at it though. I stopped all chiro/massage/drug/supplement treatments immediately and started keeping a daily journal. I didn't make a list of things that made me mad, but you might. I just wrote whatever came into my mind, a lot of it was anger, some of it was sadness, some of it was hope. A lot of it was fear but in a few months, I was feeling a lot better and doing everything I'd done before the accident.
It took me about a year to get 100% pain free. A big part of that was getting the book "Facing the Fire" by John Lee and doing the anger release excercises. Doing those and letting myself just have a good irrational cry when I am feeling hurt or sad is still hard for me to do. I still feel "weird" and "weak" for doing it but I know it helps me, so I do it.
I am pain free, after a living hell of four years which I spent in almost constant pain in my neck and upper body. After years of insurance companies and docs and chiros and naturopaths telling me I'd just have to learn to live with it. All of that is gone now. Gone. Gone. Gone. I'm "normal." I sleep on a fluffy pillow. I ski. I ride a bike. I sleep on strange hotel mattresses or on friend's lumpy pull-out couches and wake up with a smile on my vacationing face. It can be done. It works. Don't give up.
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| Baseball65 |
Posted - 12/05/2004 : 12:02:03
Hi Cheryl
No,I always have had a standing rule that I'll give anybody one days work free. It's kind of like tithing....every time I give to the universe,I'm always repaid manifold in good karma....It's like investing in "cosmological" stock
I do Faux finishes and scenic art stuff,but if I go and mix the glazes and colors and show them how I do it,most people pick up on the technique and realize that it's not rocket science.I did one giant wall at a buddies house(A fellow TMSer) and he went nuts and did his whole house!!
and...the offer stands....to anyone!(assuming you're within reasonable distance of course!)
Peace
Baseaball65
aka Marc
Baseball65 |
| Cheryl Rose |
Posted - 12/05/2004 : 11:44:57
You know Baseball65 I really had no idea how to get started and felt as though I needed an appointment with someone who could help me and damn if you didn't just spell it all out here. So I will get a notebook and get started. Thank you so much, I sincerely mean that and as far as a free days painting in my house....no way, man, we artists should never work free (god how often I actually have!!!)
cher |
| Baseball65 |
Posted - 12/04/2004 : 18:41:48
I can tell you what my "days work" was in the beginning.
First,I got a notebook and a pen,,,the kind of ring notebooks we had in high school.
Than every morning,I would get up and write a list of things I was angry about.I would write them all down as quick as I could think of them.Than I'd give each one a paragraph..sometimes just a couple of sentences,on WHY they made me angry,and how that affected me.
Like: Chris/Canceled recording session so Dave could record his pretty boy,useless lazy prospect...makes me mad because my stuff is much better,and I was promised the time a week ago
Than I'd think about it in regards to how it created repressed anger that I could not express, and add:
If I get ****ty with Chris,he's going to tell me to go record somewhere else,I'll lose access to the studio and the connections I've built thru them
Than I would list things I was afraid of..a FEAR list.Sometimes these were not things we would think negatively about.An example was: I was very close to getting the Music contract to a big budget film.
So I'd write: Sony Deal/I'm afraid that I'll get the job an be unable to do the orchestral parts/I'm not sure I can continue to reproduce the stuff that got them interested/If I don't get it my wife wants me to go back to painting
or some that were the ones we're supposed to be happy about:
My kids/Now I HAVE to set aside extra time for them to play sports,and other activities and it's going to cut into my time/Wife is always so tired from parenting that we haven't been having sex as much
and some were just regular old every day fear like
What if Sarno is wrong and i'm just kidding myself?
What if I go bankrupt?
What if my wife cheats on me?
These are fairly broad,and to be honest there were much more sordid and dirty details,but you get the picture.
Than there is the un-conditioning.
I had to go back to every single activity I had done before and challenge the conditioned fear,and it was scary.
One day,about a week into the book,I was walking through the park and really frustrated that the pain was still present.It all of a sudden occured to me that I never WALKED through that park until I went into "physical therapy"...I used to Run,mountain bike and skateboard,but never walk.
I had been told I risked paralysis if I ever jogged,let alone run.
So...Having founf my mustard seed..
I sprinted across the park as fast as my atrophied little leg would let me!! I got to the other side and the pain was still there...but...I WASN'T any worse...according to "them" I should have been in excruciating pain.
I went through a similar challenge with everything...they told me that reading on my stomach in bed was bad for my back and I had stopped...I immediately flipped over and began to read like I always have to this very day...on my stomach in bed.
And finally what might have been the key:
Every time I caught myself focusing on the pain,I Immediately visualized myself beating the snot out of a fella' who'd just cheated me out of some money in a music deal.
It took a concerted mental effort...sometimes we're tired,or doubtful and scared,but I fought my brain tooth and nail and would literally fantasize about beating him in the most cruel and prolonged manner I could Imagine.
I had the very rapid and thorough recovery talked about in the book,but I was military in my dedication to recover.I even called disability and told them I'd be back at my heavy labor job in a month.
and I was.
I'd be more than happy to expand on any of these ideas,and I'm sure mine are NOT the only way....we're all different.But it is definitely a task to be done and some sort of method must be employed consistently,and in spite of symptoms.....and then you'll get better!!!!!
I'm sure others will gladly tell you how they recovered....maybe start a new string with a question?
get well
Marc.
Baseball65 |
| MRosenthal |
Posted - 12/04/2004 : 17:58:40
Thank you. Can someone please be specific as to a day's work? I am not sure what is involved. |
| Dave |
Posted - 12/04/2004 : 16:22:09
TMS is not an exact science. You want it to be.
It is best to view TMS as a random process. The symptoms are not tied to specific emotions, nor can we abort an attack simply by reading Dr. Sarno's book or thinking psychological.
For treatment to succeed you must take a long-term view. You cannot get discouraged due to lack of immediate relief. There is nothing you can do to stop the symptoms. TMS is an unconscious process over which you have no control.
The key phrase in your message is: I am so afraid of the pain returning that I cannot do as much as I'd like. It is harder to banish the fear than the pain itself.
You are discouraged because you do not get relief from reading Sarno's books. How can you possibly expect relief? You don't believe in TMS! If you can't accept the theory, if you continue to think about herniated discs and physical problems, if you do not perform physical activity out of fear of injury ... then you simply will not get better, even if you read Dr. Sarno 24 hours a day.
I don't know if your numerous posts on this board indicate that you truly want to believe, or if you are just insistent on challenging Dr. Sarno's theory. I hope it is the former.
I said it before and I'll say it one more time: stop looking for proof and do the work. You can do the work whether or not you truly believe. If you do the work diligently for a few months you will see slow and steady progress. The progress will help alleviate some of the doubts. If you're not willing to give yourself over to the work, then you're not ready to commit to treating TMS, and you should continue to look elsewhere for answers and placebos.
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| Baseball65 |
Posted - 12/04/2004 : 15:34:12
I wasn't trying to taunt you,M...I was merely pointing out the facts as they have manifested them in my own as well as others experiences.
I've read the Bible My whole life.I can site chapter and verse better than the pastor at Church (He misquoted a parable in last weeks sermon..but I didn't discount his insights)
Point being...After all that READING,I don't believe everything in the bible.I believe the teachings of Jesus are divinely inspired,and I believe he's the son of God BECAUSE HE BELIEVED HE WAS!
Most of modern Christianity is actually regurgitated Hillelian Judaism with a smattering of Pagan resurrection/death cults that were prominent in the Roman empire at the time of the compilation of the epistles.Paul was a Rabbi,and most of christian doctrine is simply an offshoot of HIS teachings(he doesn't reference the ministry of jesus ONCE in all of the epistles)
I didn't learn that from a Theology professor...It's just my own belief after years of study.
My wife just "believes"..she has never read the bible,couldn't care less for theology,and is as peaceful and full of faith as any Christian could be.
I was raised Atheist,and I sometimes am jealous of her faith...I'm so freakin' anylitical.
Reading alone can make for all sorts of knowledge(Me) but not understanding(her)
You're questions/statements you issue in this post are all addressed by sarno in the book.However,reading is only part of it.I read your string history and you've never spoke of any personal investigation,journaling,therapy nothing...and you don't seem to have gotten a resolution.
Sarno states that it can be resolved through education.What have you done to further your education about yourself.All of your energy seems to be focused on the results,other people experience,pain,what the establishment says.
If you truly want to recover,you're barking up the wrong tree...It requires WORK and not reading the latest MRI results.
I have had to many traumas directly to the spine since my diagnosis by the system to number here.If they were even close to correct,I should be a quadrapalegic.
You say:
" I am so afraid of the pain returning that I cannot do as much as I'd like"
I'm not afraid of pain returning anymore....and subsequently I do whatever I want whenever I want.
Before you post an announcement about disproving Sarno again,make sure you have done everything he recommends and alludes to....
His 15 minute review addresses almost every issue you brought up.
I really hope you get well....like paul,the more angry and antagonistic some one is ,the more aggressively they profess the truth once they've found it
peace
Marc
Baseball65 |
| polly |
Posted - 12/04/2004 : 15:28:01
MRosenthal,
You're either goofing on the people here or are not ready to accept what is being said.
If you're not goofing, you might consider that this is just not for you. There are billion dollar industries waiting to take your money and tell you they can help you. But, you can't fence sit. You have to either accept the concept of TMS and do the work or go the doctor/chiropractor/PT/hypnosis/etc. route.
What exactly are you trying to accomplish? There is only one answer here and it's read the books, do the journaling and accept that you can rid yourself of the pain. It's beginning to look like you want to prove everybody here wrong more than help yourself.
Polly, |
| plainchant |
Posted - 12/04/2004 : 15:19:35
You're absolutely right: TMS is just scam created by us to have a good joke on you.
You can find a chiropractor here:
http://www.amerchiro.org/search/memsearch.cfm
We wish you goodbye and good luck. |
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