| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| gzevspero |
Posted - 02/18/2008 : 09:27:34
Hi all,
I've been suffering from RSI symptoms for several years now and have been through the usual run of traditional and alternative therapies with little success. Recently I came across Dr. Sarno's ideas, bought The Divided Mind, and really did "see myself on every page": from the stress, to the perfectionism, to the irregular, "jumping" symptoms, to the obsession with the pain, to the abatement of symptoms during periods of relaxation - the whole bit.
I'm really excited about the possibility for recovery (especially seeing some of the success stories on this forum!), but wanted to first ask about a topic of TMS recovery I'm still unclear about.
Regarding physical treatment methods, which Dr. Sarno says must be discontinued for the process to "work". What is meant by "physical methods"? I realize that exercises I do that have no link in my mind to treating/relieving the symptoms, such as running, probably aren't a problem. But what about stretches? At the moment I'm stretching muscles in my arms, neck, etc., and it does improve my symptoms, but becoming more flexible overall is something I'd like to do regardless. And my body could benefit from stretching, with or without TMS and/or the pain. I'm wondering though, could my doing the stretches hinder me from the "convincing of myself" that is needed to overcome this thing? What about yoga? That's something I would really like to do in any case, but it can also be interpreted by my brain as a physical method of recovery, and as such possibly keep me from overcoming the problem.
And what about massage? When I'm in pain, massage of trigger points does a whole lot to relieve it. But again, it's a physical treatment. Does that mean I should avoid massaging altogether while on the Sarno plan, and instead focus exclusively on the emotional source of the pain? Even if that means staying in the pain during times when I'm not able to relieve it by reminding myself it's purely psychogenic?
Any advice would be most welcome... thanks in advance. |
| 12 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| PeterW |
Posted - 02/27/2008 : 23:01:34
Hi Jeremy,
I know others will probably disagree with me on this, but it seems to me your last two paragraphs speak your truth. Particularly your second last sentence.
If a certain aspect of TMS theory doesn't resonate with truth to you, and actually ends out causing more conflict and tension when trying to assimilate and apply it, then perhaps just drop that part for now. Stop thinking and mulling it over and spinning it around in your head over and over and over and over. If it truely doesn't feel right, then it probably isn't for you, at this point. Took myself far too long to come to peace with that realization.
I know I struggled with this exact point for a long time. I've read Siegel too, and he even includes exercises to help regain mobility and confidence and to retrain your body to move comfortably. In the end I had to follow my intuition and do exactly that - and it felt right dammit, and it helped, despite what purist TMS theory said, despite others' experiences, and proclamations that we'll doom our recovery if we do so.
But only you can decide for yourself, and whatever path you do take, please dont beat yourself up or feel any guilt if you're not doing everything strictly 'by the book' or trying to follow everyone's advice to the letter. That's just another manifestation of perfectionism. There's also no need to get other's approval to do what intuitively feels right for ourselves. We are all different. We all find our own path to some extent. And that's ok.
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| Jeremy |
Posted - 02/27/2008 : 20:12:36
Sorry for the overextended quoting here --
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy
quote:
Originally posted by armchairlinguist
quote:
Body parts that are immobilized grow stiff, and their range of motion can in fact be returned via stretching exercises.
But your body was not immobilized (just limited), and your body was not broken. The analogy doesn't hold.
My neck ROM went from so limited that the chiropractor I was seeing said that he almost never saw such limited ROM in people my age (25 at the time) to pretty much normal in a matter of a few weeks without any systematic attempt at stretching it.
Stretching, however nice it is, reinforces the idea that there is something physical wrong that you are somehow fixing by stretching. In TMS there is no "healing" because there is no injury.
Thanks for the firm counter-response, acl. I think maybe the message is beginning to sink into my aforementioned thick head. :)
-- but I feel the need to revisit this. A new piece of the puzzle has arrived, via the book Back Sense. I've searched through some older threads and I know that some people here have gotten a lot out of that book; I also know that Back Sense is not straightforward Sarno theory. Even while discussing why almost all chronic back pain is in fact psychogenic, the book does not talk in terms of TMS.
The authors (among them Ronald Siegel, who was himself treated and cured by Dr. Sarno) make a very clear case for what I've been fumbling around trying to talk about.
In the book, the authors talk about the "deconditioning" that results from how we get trained by doctors, physical therapists, and others to move so carefully.
"It is common for people with chronic back pain to rest their backs regularly and avoid even the relatively small amounts of exercise that back muscles automatically receive during the day ... When we limit ourselves in this way, muscles become tighter, shorter, and weaker.
"This leaves us vulnerable to minor injuries, in the form of strains and soreness, since even light exercise and normal stretching become a challenge for seriously deconditioned muscles. This brings whole new opportunities for acute back pain, on top of the chronic pain we're already suffering."
Everyone is different; your mileage may vary, as people like to say. For me, however, this affirms my intuitive sense that even when the pain is psychogenic, there are physical implications that arise that become independent of the originating emotion-generated pain. Deconditioned muscles become tighter, shorter, and weaker. This condition may not melt away via Sarno-style recovery. Simply getting your unconscious to stop creating pain (no mean feat, as we know!) will not necessarily undo all the collateral damage, as it were, that has been done via the pain cycle.
I fully respect that people are going to have different experiences; I understand that there are many ways range of motion may be affected, some of which might have nothing to do with this. For me, I do not believe that stretching will defeat my ability to recovery; on the contrary, I see it as an important ally in that recovery. And I do not for a moment feel that this assertion in any way undermines my belief in the psychogenic origin of my problem.
To be honest, my back feels less tense already, simply acknowledging this. But, again, your mileage may vary.
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| gzevspero |
Posted - 02/23/2008 : 13:03:17
Thanks all for your responses. I think what I'll do is lay off the stretches and massage until I recover, which I am confident will be soon. I am already beginning to see changes in the levels of pain (and the associated) anxiety) I experience while using the computer.
I still intend to do stretches and yoga for my general wellbeing, but will wait until after I have given this technique a real try, on its own terms (i.e., the "no physical methods" condition recommended by Sarno). I think this is especially important for me, as my approach in the past has been to try everything at once, attempting to employ massage and stretches and alexander technique and bowen and yoga and meditation and physical therapy, etc', all at once, trying to fill my day with rehab activities and literally beat the rsi out of my system. Lists and schedules and a whole lot of self-pressure and self-criticism that only ended up adding to my stress.
So I think for me especially it would be best to focus on one method at a time - especially since this method seems like the one :-). There's just so much in Sarno's description of TMS that fits my personality and symptoms... it simply makes perfect sense. And hey, this has been a three-paragraph post, and very little pain...
Onward to pain-free computing :-).
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| Jeremy |
Posted - 02/20/2008 : 19:43:16
quote:
Originally posted by armchairlinguist
quote:
Body parts that are immobilized grow stiff, and their range of motion can in fact be returned via stretching exercises.
But your body was not immobilized (just limited), and your body was not broken. The analogy doesn't hold.
My neck ROM went from so limited that the chiropractor I was seeing said that he almost never saw such limited ROM in people my age (25 at the time) to pretty much normal in a matter of a few weeks without any systematic attempt at stretching it.
Stretching, however nice it is, reinforces the idea that there is something physical wrong that you are somehow fixing by stretching. In TMS there is no "healing" because there is no injury.
Thanks for the firm counter-response, acl. I think maybe the message is beginning to sink into my aforementioned thick head. :) |
| Allan |
Posted - 02/20/2008 : 18:08:33
Streching in itself is fine.
The problem is when it interfers with your mindset, that is, your mind as it pertains to relief from TMS.
Go back and read Dave's posting.
He has your answer.
Allan |
| electraglideman |
Posted - 02/20/2008 : 16:51:07
gzevspero if stretching or massage was the answer to your problem you wouldn't be here would you? Stretching will not eleminate your problem (TMS). Now having said that stretching will maintain or increase your flexability which is a good thing. Like Dave said its a fine line.
I would lay of the stretching until you notice a relief from your pain by doing your TMS home work. |
| armchairlinguist |
Posted - 02/20/2008 : 16:17:00
quote:
Body parts that are immobilized grow stiff, and their range of motion can in fact be returned via stretching exercises.
But your body was not immobilized (just limited), and your body was not broken. The analogy doesn't hold.
My neck ROM went from so limited that the chiropractor I was seeing said that he almost never saw such limited ROM in people my age (25 at the time) to pretty much normal in a matter of a few weeks without any systematic attempt at stretching it.
Stretching, however nice it is, reinforces the idea that there is something physical wrong that you are somehow fixing by stretching. In TMS there is no "healing" because there is no injury.
--
It's not 100% belief that's required, but 100% commitment. |
| h2oskier25 |
Posted - 02/20/2008 : 14:52:24
Gzev,
I suffered RSI pain and debilitation for 7 years. I gave up my entire life to it, except work, which I was afraid of every day during that time.
I was cured with Sarno a little over two years ago and never looked back. Today I type up a storm all day long, then go home and play video games on some days. I treat my body like the miraculous tool it is. I feed it the right stuff to the extent I can, but that's the only babying my body gets. I demand perfect health from it, and I'm rarely disappointed. I don't hesitate to go outside and pull weeds for hours, even though I'll have normal soreness the next day, that will disappear in a couple day.
Here's my definitive take on the matter. Go ahead and stretch, and for God's sake don't give up yoga. But do this. Do your stretches once in the morning and once at night at the most. Don't do stretches as a result of feeling pain. Do them at a daily scheduled time, as part of your daily routine.
Keep to your normal yoga schedule, because it's good for the mind, body and soul, and the stretching schedule for the same reason.
Keep me posted,
Regards,
Beth |
| Jeremy |
Posted - 02/20/2008 : 13:39:07
The issue of stretching and stiffness is so front and center in my TMS experience that I have to chime in, although I am still so new to this that my comments will unfortunately be about my own confusion than my having any good advice (yet)!
I completely understand the idea that stretching is easily perceived by your brain as a physical "treatment" of sorts and as such is counter to Dr. Sarno's program. The more people talk about this here, the more I think it is penetrating my relatively thick head.
I have a hard time letting go of one nagging idea in this thick head of mine, however. I return to my broken-thumb analogy, which I repeat from another post only because it's relevant and I don't think I heard an answer that directly addressed the issue. So, after my broken thumb healed in a splint for a couple of months, I took it out and it felt terrible: extraordinarily stiff. I initially: oh no! It's not healed properly. I was quickly informed that it was healed, but after a couple of months of immobility, I needed to do some exercises that would get it gradually used to motion again.
None of this (I don't think!) had anything to do with my mind. But it gets me wondering. Regarding my back troubles, during my many months of conventional "treatment," I was very very careful, and avoided any sort of bending whatsoever, as per instruction from medical professionals. Independent of TMS symptoms, this becomes simply a body part that has been immobilized. Body parts that are immobilized grow stiff, and their range of motion can in fact be returned via stretching exercises.
I am happy to try to reprogram my brain to believe that in the case of TMS this is irrelevant-- that if I stick to the program and avoid any physically-based treatment, I will get better. But, as noted, I'm having a hard time because at a certain level this seems to deny the basic fact that, while intimately connected, the mind and the body are also, still, parts of a greater whole (the Self), and as such retain some individual autonomy. You can stub your toe and it may not have to do with any thought you were having; likewise, you can have many different thoughts that do not appear to affect the body in any particular way.
So even when your body *is* affected by your mind, is it out of the question that the body may take some of that effect and channel it into a pure-body experience? Or is that the kind of "seed of doubt" I am to continue to try to banish from my aforementioned thick head?
y |
| armchairlinguist |
Posted - 02/19/2008 : 12:42:33
You probably need to stop both stretching and massage for a while. Stretching your arms and shoulders regularly isn't needed for everyday physical performance, and both activities are clearly linked to your symptoms in your mind.
If you want to do these things in the long run, start back up after you conquer your symptoms.
--
It's not 100% belief that's required, but 100% commitment. |
| Dave |
Posted - 02/19/2008 : 10:49:26
It's a slippery slope. You admit that stretching relieves the symptoms. But can you accept that the relief is temporary, like taking an aspirin? Or will the fact that stretching relieves the symptoms plant a seed of doubt? Unconsciously the stretching may be reinforcing a belief that the symptoms do have a structural cause.
Stretching may be fine as part of an overall health program (though Dr. Sarno doesn't believe it has any benefit) but the key is that you need to have the right attitude. When first starting out down the path of treating TMS it may be best to lay off stretching to avoid planting that seed.
Early on, Dr. Sarno prescribed PT for his patients but he stopped when he realized it was stunting their recovery. |
| weatherman |
Posted - 02/18/2008 : 15:37:40
Flexibility seems like a good idea on its own merits. Maybe it helps athletic performance, and decreases next-day muscle soreness (I'm NOT talking about the nasty TMS type pain here, more the lactic acid type). Intuitively it seems like flexibility would prevent real injuries from occurring, though I've seen postings on this board claiming that studies show no benefits from stretching as far as injury prevention. To further complicate things I've seen lots of different theories about the "right" way to stretch.
Maybe massage is OK for helping one get over an acute discomfort - similar to how even Sarno supports short-term use of muscle relaxers for an acute back pain attack, for example. But, I don't think massage should be a long-term thing done with the idea of fixing or preventing an injury, because it won't.
Before I knew about TMS I did get intense massage work once a month or so to alleviate/prevent a sore back. Now my back never gets touched, I'm 12 years older and can pretty much use it fearlessly. I.e. it's much better than it was when I was being treated.
Weatherman
"Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement." |
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