| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Monte |
Posted - 02/10/2008 : 09:09:35
You can not change the law or the strategy of tms. It is going to exist tomorow in each one of us just as is does today. That is truth!
You can however change your dominant thoughts and how they make you feel.
Another way of saying this, is that you can switch out of your chronic repressing thoughts that the strategy of tms uses to create pain...and when you do that the strategy of tms keeps right on working except the communication to your system is no longer pain. Now it is open and free flowing and there is no longer a need for the pain signals.
You can choose to think in those old chronic, repressing ways of conrolling, or worry, or anger and resentment, or of striving and perfection...OR you can switch out of those old, chronic, repressing (pain producing) thoughts and you can choose to be less controlling, or think less worrry and angry thoughts. Even better you can choose to not think those thoughts at all and you can create new thoughts that are open and don't even contain the (worry,resentment, anger, must do/have) content.
Why don't you choose to do that and bring yourself out of the pain of tms?
There are two main reasons. 1. You have become so indoctrinated in the belief that you just have to learn/read about tms and through your subconscious where your repressed emotons are held, eventually this stuff will sink in and you will be healed/out of pain. And if that does not work then you need to find a therapist who can help you dig up these repressed emotions and then after this therapist does THEIR work you will be able to release those repressed emotions and all will be well. I have to tell you folks that this is not usually the way it works! And those of you reading this know that! You don't accept that, but you do know it. You are just still hoping that someone else can fix this pain without you doing/changing anything!
2. This is actually part of (1) above....and that is you are lazy. And that is truth. It is much easier to keep thinking in our old, chronic, repressing thoughts of worry, anger, resentment, striving, controlling, and self-consciousness than it is to use the discipline and persistence and the effort needed to switch out of these and into New and more Open, and better Feeling thoughts. Part of this being lazy is we have read or heard about how many tms folks have learned about tms and their pain goes away without doing all this inner work...and of course that's the way we want it as well.
Let me tell you somehting though...In my daily consultations with people, most who did have this subconscious effect of healing...and they have been pain free for years...but now the pain is back and they know it is tms but it won't go away. Why?
1. They never actually switched out of repressing thoughts. They believed in tms, they stopped physical treatments and they thought "what is going on with me, instead of injury or treatment" and the pain strategy because of this was rendered useless...however, they still were creating the same old, chronic, repressing thoughts AND now 2, 5, or 10 years later the pain is back. Their question now is why, how do I can rid of this....I've read Sarno again, I've went back to the lectures, I know this is tms...ect, ect....
Stop wishing this is just going to go away again without changing the repressing thought processes because it is not. Stop thinking you just have to uncover the remaining repressed emotion and then all will be well--not going to happen.<
This is a pain strategy created by our daily, moment to moment chronic repressing thoughts and you must change or switch out of these thoughts and Intentionally create new more open, better feeling thoughts...This is the communication that will render the tms strategy of pain useless for good.
Monte Hueftle
http://www.runningpain.com
http://www.runningpain.com/blog.html
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| 17 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| positivevibes |
Posted - 02/19/2008 : 19:45:23
Monte,
Sometimes the repression (or suppression) has gone on for so long that we do it almost automatically. In other words, we aren't aware that we are actually represssing something. How can you stop doing something if you don't even realize you are doing it -- if it's so automatic that it's like breathing?
Some surface reactions are easier to realize, and then control or change. For example, I can be aware that I choose to feel angry about being cut off on the freeway. Or I can acknowledge that I feel angry and then let go of that emotion. But not getting angry in the first place requires me to understand why the situation upsets me at all -- and that's a lot harder. I think there are many emotions and reactions that are so entwined with our deep seated personality traits (and life experiences) that it can be difficult to unravel them in a simplistic manner.
In the spirit of CBT, it's like getting stuck in a "thought rut." You keep reacting to things a certain way but you can't seem to stop yourself no matter how hard you try. You've become programmed. But there is reason why those programs exist. What do they accomplish for you? When and why did they come to exist in the first place? And why can't you change them easily? That's where the hard work of therapy lies.
Sarno says that you don't have to change who you are, just be aware that you have these traits. For me...well I don't like some of those traits and I'm seeing a therapist to try to understand why I react in certain ways to certain things. I think that understanding the root of my reactions will ultimately help me change my reactions and break the old programming. Then I can make better emotional choices and (hopefully) eventually change my total thought process and stop ALL of the TMS problems occuring in my body.
Sarno talks about repressed feelings that are in the unconscious beyond our control. It's true that you can control the "here and now" but you can't control or change how you felt about an event that happened to you when you were 6 years old. Sure, you can change how the "adult you" percieves the event, but the "child you in the past" is in the past and that child-you's emotions cannot be changed. But what if you have repressed some traumatic event? Or are aware of it but have no idea how traumatic it really was for you? The mind creates some of these protection mechanisms for a reason. It's a slippery slope to delve into them without having an emotional breakdown.
It's wonderful to be mindful. I've read all of Thich Nhat Hanh's books. But I can never seem to apply his philosophy to my life for long for the very reasons I've been explaining -- the old programming is just too deeply engrained. Figure out the reason behind the programming and then you can change it, IMO.
This TMS stuff is tricky. It really IS easier just to pop a pill or get a massage. Facing the truth of your life and yourself -- immensely harder. Not everyone is cut out for it. It's way too scary for some folks.
That's my 2cents.
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| Jeremy |
Posted - 02/19/2008 : 17:56:25
quote:
Originally posted by easymojo
I've been seeing some results, but feel mentally weary from all of the introspection. I don't think that I'm a lazy person, but I start to feel a bit guilty when I think about all the mental work as a mundane chore. "Ugh...I *really* don't feel like doing this crap tonight."
Is it OK to feel that way? Am I the only one?
I'm too new to this to know if it's OK to feel that way (but I suspect it is, and agree with what Wavy Soul has said on the matter); but I can definitely tell you that you're not the only one. I know I'm not remotely lazy when it comes to doing this kind of thing-- introspection, meditation, journaling, directly pondering difficult issues -- but I also know that, already, with the TMS stuff, I've had to take a deep breath and sometimes just let it go. There have been days where I just can't approach it in terms of the "homework" style stuff. On those days, I am still good about taking the physical episodes and moving them into the psychological realm as best I can-- in other words, any time I feel some of my standard pain, I have learned to go inside and either find what it was I was thinking that was turning the pain on, or, if it really didn't seem to be consciously provoked by any particular thought, then at least reminding myself of what in general is going on (i.e. there is nothing basically wrong with me; the pain is psychogenic; etc.). But it's certainly not every day that I've been able to do all the journaling and specific introspection that we are "supposed" to.
I understand, however, that I may be delaying my getting better. That is certainly not my intention. But a person can only do what he or she can do, and in my experience, guilt is never a positive force. |
| easymojo |
Posted - 02/18/2008 : 08:37:13
That makes a lot of sense to me. And feeling guilty seems to play into the whole distraction process.
So I'm deciding that I'm just going to accept the way I feel about it, slow down and not obsess (or worry), and come back to it when i'm ready.
At least, that's what I'm going to try to do...might take some practice.  |
| Wavy Soul |
Posted - 02/17/2008 : 23:19:01
For me, when I feel like telling others that they are lazy and not getting it––or similar guru-like posturing--it is just a voice from inside my own head that is spilling out on others and projecting.
That very voice talks to me subconsciously. It is the thing that keeps me out of the Now. It has to have some expression, some job to do - whether it's the symptom imperative or the other-people-should-get-it imperative. I've found that it's just an energy that is kind of subtly addictive - basically a form of ego - that travels around. I'm sure it's what makes people drink and overeat and smoke and beat their wives and also just basically adopt a million other strategies to distract from anxiety.
When I'm really experiencing Presence and a relief from my tyrannical thought projections, I feel grateful for everything - even people who behave in ways that I don't want to behave.
I'm in and out of this, these days.
xx
Love is the answer, whatever the question |
| easymojo |
Posted - 02/17/2008 : 10:21:55
quote:
Originally posted by JohnD
The good news - for those who may be struggling with TMS - is that there are more options than the 2 polarized limited options that Monte has mentioned. The skills to beat your TMS are built over time, and you don't have to do it perfectly to get the results you want and need.
That's very nice to hear. I've been seeing some results, but feel mentally weary from all of the introspection. I don't think that I'm a lazy person, but I start to feel a bit guilty when I think about all the mental work as a mundane chore. "Ugh...I *really* don't feel like doing this crap tonight."
Is it OK to feel that way? Am I the only one? |
| armchairlinguist |
Posted - 02/14/2008 : 08:53:44
While I think mindfulness and being in the now, letting go of the stories that we create with our thoughts, is an excellent way of helping to deal with TMS issues, I disagree that this approach as described by Monte is wholly compatible with Sarno.
quote:
There is only one cause of this disorder and that is a person's thoughts.
Since Sarno says that the emotions that cause TMS are unconscious, "thoughts", which are usually conscious (it's possible we have unconscious thoughts, but it's hard to know) are not considered the primary cause.
The behavior of Monte's patients that he describes, such as believing that only a therapist can uncover the deep emotions, aren't necessarily compatible with Sarno's beliefs and recommendations, so to say that these patients tried Sarno's methods and they didn't work is misleading.
Sarno says that most people do not need to uncover the original source emotions, just acknowledge that there are some there, particularly rage. He also stresses the contributions of personality and the little irritations of everyday life. The picture given of going to therapy is also not representative of all therapy. My experience has been that my therapist helps me explore patterns and emotions that come up for me in various situations, and the focus isn't really on "releasing emotions so all will be well". It's on getting to know myself so I can live a life that's more true to my inner self, feeling my emotions, having my thoughts, and not being trapped in unpleasant, dysfunctional patterns created in previous situations. I'm doing the work, not my therapist.
"Choosing" to be less anxious, or to change patterns in any other way, can be very challenging. It's not as simple as choosing what thoughts you have. That's CBT stuff and just trying to change the thoughts won't necessarily work; you need to have some understanding of what's behind the thoughts and what they're giving you.
I've had some experience working on this for myself. For me, I had to recognize the purpose of the worrying, and it wasn't as simple as "to distract me", although that was part of it. I also had to devise various ways of breaking out of the cycle. It took some time to gain the insight to figure out how to break the cycle, and then further time to figure out what was going on in the cycle, which eventually happened by gently 'watching' my behavior and seeing what I was trying to avoid. There were multiple layers of worrying behavior -- one that created a deep anxiety, and one that just occupied the upper levels of my mind, but whose actual purpose was to try to get to a place where I felt in control.
I don't think that everyone needs to do things like this to be well, either, but it is the logical next step if you have persistent relapses to explore what's still going on psychodynamically. However, there is no all-or-nothing, and each person has to explore the path in the way that works for them. And it's not as simple as 'choosing your thoughts', that's for sure.
--
It's not 100% belief that's required, but 100% commitment. |
| Jeremy |
Posted - 02/12/2008 : 15:10:42
quote:
Originally posted by Monte
It is true that most of us would rather see a doctor, take medication, do an exercise and be free of pain rather than go thru the very hard work of becoming aware of our chronic repressing thts and then the even more challenging work of changing them...and call it whatever you want, but we are lazy, we don't want to do that. we don't even want to hear (be told) that that is what we need to do --look at the replies to this post! LOL!
john d. yes of course we need to experience or feel our emotional energy--I wrote 2 books with that as the central theme. It is a big huge key to healing. However, how does the emotional energy get repressed? By our thoughts! So you must address this component. Yes other people can help in this practice, but each one of us has to do our own inner work.
Monte-
I can see that you're really earnest and are genuinely trying to help people. Some of your words, however, sound far more like judgment than analysis and in my case have nothing whatever to do with my experience, inner or outer. The idea that I must not want to be told what I need to do or that I'm lazy and just want someone else to take care of me is so far off from the truth of my life that I have nothing more to say on the matter, and neither should you.
I wish you best of luck with your own clients, who apparently thrive under your guidance. |
| austini |
Posted - 02/11/2008 : 15:58:18
Hi Gang,
I must admit I'm somewhat confused by Monte's suggestion that ALL our responses to his initial post are missing the point. I actually agreed with a lot of what Monte said and thought that my approach to dealing with TMS was somewhat similar. That is, be mindful of your thoughts/feelings, acknowledge (don't repress them) and basically do the hard work in breaking their cycle so that they don't control you etc etc.
Basically the approach I use is a well researched and proven cogniture skill that trains you to live in the present moment which effectively eliminates past the future thoughts which cause a lot of the problems. There are a few other skills but that is essentially the core of it.
Cheers - Gordon |
| JohnD |
Posted - 02/11/2008 : 14:26:20
"we don't even want to be told what to do. Look at the replies to this post! LOL!"
Monte,
Actually the replies to your post were pretty fair. Some agreed with you and some disagreed. Are we reading the same replies? Also, its not that people don't want to be told what to do, they just want to be told how to effectively do what they need to do.....and what you say has some of that, but there are also many holes in what you say.
"how does emotional energy get repressed? by our thoughts."
Here you go again with your passive suggestions that your way/opinion is the correct way and OF COURSE, its just a switch you turn on and off and decide to change your thoughts (sarcasm). Most people know that this a skill built over time, with many failures along the way but also great success. People who have TMS are vulnerable and that is irresponsible of you to make the statements that you do with those polarized implications all the while you are trying to sell a product.
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| Monte |
Posted - 02/11/2008 : 07:15:38
you guys are missing the point. the law is the law. tms is going to exist and act and react in your life exactly the same. and it is exactly the same for all of us. that simply means when we repress emotional energy we get pain. when we open up and stop repressing we reverse out of pain. it is simply cause and effect.
understand where I am coming from when I make a post like this. I had just finished three consultations with sarno patients. two of them had experienced tms, read sarno, received the subc. effect and pain went away over a few months...one was pain free for 5 years the second 7 years...and the third 13 years PainFree!...now the pain is back and they can not get rid of it. one person is going to weekly sarno lectures, reading 2 hours every night, going to a therapist because they are now convinced they have a Deep seated emotion that only a therapist can uncover. in all three of these cases though, they never changed one aspect of their dominant repressing Type A thought processes. they all three admitted that they were hoping the pain would leave like it did the first time from reading a book about tms.
It is true that most of us would rather see a doctor, take medication, do an exercise and be free of pain rather than go thru the very hard work of becoming aware of our chronic repressing thts and then the even more challenging work of changing them...and call it whatever you want, but we are lazy, we don't want to do that. we don't even want to hear (be told) that that is what we need to do --look at the replies to this post! LOL!
john d. yes of course we need to experience or feel our emotional energy--I wrote 2 books with that as the central theme. It is a big huge key to healing. However, how does the emotional energy get repressed? By our thoughts! So you must address this component. Yes other people can help in this practice, but each one of us has to do our own inner work.
Monte Hueftle
http://www.runningpain.com |
| JohnD |
Posted - 02/10/2008 : 20:56:18
The good news - for those who may be struggling with TMS - is that there are more options than the 2 polarized limited options that Monte has mentioned. The skills to beat your TMS are built over time, and you don't have to do it perfectly to get the results you want and need. |
| Jeremy |
Posted - 02/10/2008 : 18:19:51
Actually I think you're the one with the great post, Gordon.
I appreciate what Monte is trying to get at but I cannot personally find "truth" in any approach that either directly ("you are lazy") or indirectly ("you can choose not to think those thoughts") is telling any one of us that we are falling short, that we the not-yet-cured are being less good than those who have cured themselves.
We are all, here, doing the best we can with what we have. We are learning and growing day by day. I do not believe any good comes from shaming people into following a specific path or regimen.
If one of the central problems with TMS is the activity of the unconscious mind, how does assuring someone that they can "choose not to think those thoughts" offer useful assistance? Much of the problem exists because of how difficult to impossible it can be to control the mind. Now we have to feel bad because we're "choosing" to stay stuck?
Gordon's post sounds somewhat more like truth to me. It's not controlling the thoughts, it's controlling the response to the thoughts. Many yoga traditions teach that the key to being truly Present is radical Self Acceptance. Radical Self Acceptance does not mean believing one is always right and good and perfect, not at all; it means simply being with how you are without judgment, and finding right action from that sense of being-with. The right action that emerges may in fact be something that moves you away from what you were thinking or how you were acting.
I don't expect this will work with everyone either. Some may need to be propelled by a sense of shame, a sense that they are not doing something right. In my spiritual experience, this is neither a kind nor a compassionate path, and therefore a path I will personally avoid.
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| austini |
Posted - 02/10/2008 : 16:54:22
Hi Gang,
Great post Monte.
Whether it is TMS, anxiety/panic disorder or a whole host of other mind based ailments a lot of the problem usually comes back to HOW WE RESPOND TO OUR THOUGHTS. Thoughts themselves are not necessarily the problem but it is when we allow ourselves to get sucked into them as if they are reality that is the real issue. However the more we can quieten the mind and live life fully in the moment the happier we will be. After all most of our problematic thinking and resultant sufffering is due to "past" hurts and/or "future" fears etc.
This is where mindfulness training can be of great benefit. It trains you to be much more aware of your thoughts. That is, rather than feeling that you are your thoughts, you are able to separate yourself from them and choose how to act (rather than automatically react). A thought has no power over you (and no ability to create bodily symptoms) if you can let it go and not automatically react to it.
Mind you, if you are a habitual thinker/worrier and perhaps tend to have a fearful nature then training yourself to become mindful and able to let go of thoughts takes a lot of discipline and practice. I've still got a lot of work to do but I know it will be worth it.
A few books I have read seem to suggest similar strategies. That is, train yourself to become aware of your thoughts and letting them go using meditation. This is usually as simple as focusing on your breathing (sensation at nostrils or rise and fall of abdomen) and when you catch youself thinking you simply return to your breathing. One or two 10 - 30 minutes meditation sessions daily is sufficient.
Then during normal everyday life you regularly check in on your mind and if you catch yourself thinking/worrying etc then just label what type of thought it is, let it go (eg watch it drift away like a cloud) then tune into your breathing and what is going on around you to bring you back into the present moment. Eventually you get to the stage where you are automatically aware of your thoughts without conscious effort. And importantly the amount of thoughts you have significantly reduce as practice continues.
Note above the importance of labelling the type of thought. That way you are not trying to pretend it doesn't exist or distract yourself from it which many suggest dosen't work but you are acknowledging the thought and then letting it go. Maybe this is a bit like mental journaling on the fly.
Cheers - Gordon |
| altherunner |
Posted - 02/10/2008 : 15:46:36
Monte - I have found being more in the present moment, rather than living in future scenarios(all bad, of course), I have almost no anxiety, fear of future events, etc., and less tension, and no pain.
Recently, a friend that is quite depressed, really tried hard to bring me down, and did for a short time. After having bad thoughts about our interaction for part of a day, I was able to let this go, basically forget about it. Years past, I would have lost sleep, for days. A friend told me the other day - The ego answers first, and is always wrong. |
| Monte |
Posted - 02/10/2008 : 15:21:35
John d, bottom line you must treat the cause...and reading a book for the 100th time is not treating the cause. There is only one cause of this disorder and that is a person's thoughts.
So you either change the cause or you keep getting the same results...
didn't someone once say, that insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results?
I'm saying what sarno says but doesn't explain and that is "think psychologically".
Either you do it yourself or you pay someone to change your thoughts for you...don't think that works. |
| JohnD |
Posted - 02/10/2008 : 12:39:46
Don't fall for the "do the right way and succeed and do it the wrong way and fail" that Monte is proposing. Yes there are basic principles but everyone has to find their own niche in doing the TMS work in a way that is helpful and productive for them. There are many people who are controlling, who worry and are angry that don't necessarily have chronic TMS. A certain amount of anger, worry, and other "negative" feelings are normal feelings that healthy people often feel. There isn't always a conscious choice of whether or not to feel angry, but there is a choice to allow yourself to be angry/worry(healthy) vs "choosing" to worry less (unhealthy). Allow yourself to have whatever feelings you have. One way to be angry less often is to change your expectations of yourself, the situation or others etc... but that is very different from "choosing not to think angry thoughts". |
| gezondheid |
Posted - 02/10/2008 : 12:38:15
100% spot on.
Yes you can check your past and your hidden emotions/pressures. Yes you must accept them and know the pain is psychological. It is good to see where it comes from or what has formed it. But life is NOW and has always been. Only in the NOW we can change and only in the NOW we can
remain in this TMS-F**K.
I would say use your Sarno knowledge and combine this with this moment to moment transforming thought evaluation. Better though don't think at all. Fully be in the NOW.
In my opinion Monte's book is brilliant and is in no way opposite to Sarno. They match perfectly.
The principle of the NOW and how to think are also very important in this.
Greetings Gezondheid
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