| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| airbulb |
Posted - 02/04/2008 : 08:23:52
I have searched a little bit on these forums and I know this has been discusses. Forgive me if exactly this has already been discussed.
I have a very difficult time accepting distraction as the reason for TMS in all cases.
I seems to me that in some cases the pain or TMS equivalent is designed to stop you doing what you are doing. So if someone has a very responsible job that is generating a conflict in the unconscious - the part of them that doesn;t want this person to have this job attempts to stop them with TMS.
I suppose my question is: does it matter - do I have to know what the motivation is - if I like the idea of it being the unconscious mind trying to prevent me from doing my job will I still get relief. Or if I go along with the distraction hypothesis without truly believing it - will I still be successful.
Thanks,
Davd
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| 20 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| armchairlinguist |
Posted - 02/05/2008 : 11:56:06
quote:
And I think it is important to realize that the conflict does not have to be resolved in order to recover from TMS- it seems enough to simply acknowledge it (albeit at a deep level).
Don't want to rehash this debate too much, but this depends on the person. MOST people don't have to resolve them. Some do. And it isn't always changing the situation, but changing your reaction. But sometimes it is the situation. It varies.
--
It's not 100% belief that's required, but 100% commitment. |
| Dave |
Posted - 02/05/2008 : 08:36:46
quote:
Originally posted by airbulb
Does anyone have any opinions on hayfever. If this only occurs in the Spring, say, and there are no other obvious symptoms for the rest of the year - why is it only necessary to create symptoms for a few months a year. In the case I am thinking of the symptoms are very severe.
Conditioning is extremely important to understand in the context of TMS.
If you expect hayfever in the spring, TMS will oblige and give you the symptoms when you are likely to attribute it to something "real".
Another explanation is that the immune response to allergans (e.g. pollen) is constant but since these allergans are in low supply for most of the year, we don't get symptoms.
I have personally found that I no longer experience hayfever in the early fall like I used to every year, despite not doing anything special to treat this symptom as TMS. |
| fup |
Posted - 02/05/2008 : 06:03:50
Wavy Soul: If you don't mind academic language then you may find this paper interesting:
http://www.ei-resource.org/articles/chronic-fatigue-syndrome-articles/unconscious-amygdalar-fear-conditioning-in-a-subset-of-chronic-fatigue-syndrome-patients/
(this info is relevant to pain also)
Gupta has developed a system to reprogram the brain, which he now practices here (there are a few testimonials)
www . cfsrecovery . com
I cannot vouch for the efficacy of the treatment but the theory seems to fit with all the mindbody stuff I've devoured.
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| airbulb |
Posted - 02/05/2008 : 05:15:41
Does anyone have any opinions on hayfever. If this only occurs in the Spring, say, and there are no other obvious symptoms for the rest of the year - why is it only necessary to create symptoms for a few months a year. In the case I am thinking of the symptoms are very severe.
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| positivevibes |
Posted - 02/05/2008 : 02:40:15
Wavy soul -- when you say that you still have fatigue...
I assume that you've had your thyroid (TSH) levels checked, and that you are not anemic? What about your Vitamin D levels?
When I was first diagnosed with Hashimoto's Thyroiditis, I was getting extremely fatigued for no reason, so I understand to some extent what you are saying. You want so badly to have more energy but your body just can't seem to muster it up. When my THS returned to a normal range, my energy slowly returned, too. And having your Vitamin D be in a normal range also helps (mine was very low).
Anyway, just wanted to throw in my 2cents.  Since you've been involved in TMS for so long, you probably have explored those avenues already... |
| positivevibes |
Posted - 02/05/2008 : 02:32:41
This is a really interesting topic for me because I'm new at the TMS diagnosis. I just finished watching Sarno's DVD lectures.
I also am having trouble letting go of some programmed doubts. For example, about 10 years ago, I helped move a very heavy folding table and I immediately felt a "pressing down" sensation in my lower back and then was in pain for several weeks. I had never experienced pain like that before. And every time after that incident, if I hurt my back somehow, I felt that same terrible pain (near my SI joints).
Well we all know that we're told to bend a certain way and not to lift heavy things. I am having a lot of trouble letting go of those beliefs. I'm afraid that if I do try to lift a heavy object, I will flare up my back and be in pain again. It's hard for me NOT to believe that something structural "happens" when I lift a heavy object, because I immediately feel that "pressing down" feeling in my lower back. I used to always picture my discs....that the stuff was being pressed out...and THAT was the feeling I felt.
NOW I know that dwelling on the physical (the image of my discs) is a huge mistake and I'm trying to re-program myself not to think about things in that context. I keep repeating to myself, "There is nothing wrong with my back. There is no reason for it to hurt." And amazingly, I've been going to the gym for every other day for almost 2 weeks now, doing things I haven't been able to do in almost a year with very little (or no) pain.
In his DVD, Dr. Sarno tells his patients that it will take time for all the doubts and bad programming to change. Indeed, I think it WILL take me a while.
In the mean time, I'm extremely happy with my progress and am beginning to consider this latest hellish episode of back pain (lasting almost a year) to be OVER. |
| fup |
Posted - 02/05/2008 : 01:57:15
Great stuff guys! Thanks.
I'm going to order the "Explain Pain" book. I think it will help me greatly to understand what's going on. |
| weatherman |
Posted - 02/05/2008 : 01:25:08
I second it - great thread. I think that while initial TMS symptoms may be brought on by unconscious stress/rage etc., the pain can certainly take on a life of its own, where the very act of obsessing about it - and whether you are hurting yourself by continuing activity - just intensifies everything. Unfortunately, the conventional medical community just multiplies the whole thing because of their perspective that pain does equal injury. They'll do manual exam, x-ray, MRI etc. to find the cause. And, if they can't find anything quantitative, still insist that the pain is being caused by inflammation, microtears, etc. - and that you'd better stop doing any activity that produces it.
Weatherman
"Good judgement comes from experience. Experience comes from bad judgement." |
| Wavy Soul |
Posted - 02/05/2008 : 00:44:10
This is a fantastic thread - beyond fantastic - in fact, I am awarding it the Gold Medal of all threads I've ever read on this Forum.
Having said which, I would like to put something out there to all you geniuses re pain vs other TMS equivalents. I have pretty much gotten rid of all my pain from fibromyalgia and a back that was crippling me for decades. Hooray! In fact, when I read about pain here, I mostly just skip over it. It is quite obvious to me that it's no big deal. I even got through the worst pain of my life - TMJ - using a TMS approach.
But I have had many more symptoms than that over 30 years as a sickie. The main one, which has been discussed in various threads, and which still gets me, is fatigue. I won't call it anything more elaborate than that.
I can and do work through my pain at the gym and in life regularly and it has lost its stranglehold on me. However, except by using caffeine, I haven't found a way to work through the fatigue. If you haven't experienced this you can't understand it. It's not like a lack of willpower that you can't push through. I am incredibly willful and can push through anything. It's a complete emptying out of energy.
I no longer believe consciously that I have a dreaded chronic disease called CFS blah blah blah. I consider myself healed and getting stronger every day. But in fact I keep splatting out.
The same high level of discussion and evidence about fatigue as exists here about pain - and from people who have actually broken through it themselves - would be mighty welcome.
Thanks.
Love is the answer, whatever the question |
| austini |
Posted - 02/04/2008 : 20:37:00
quote:
Originally posted by scottjmurray
... The problem that people have with TMS basically comes down to a loss of control over their reality through misinformation. They, in essence, forfeit their mental domain to the mythology of the medical community and suffer for it. ...
Hi Scott,
The reason Butler and Moseley through the Neuroscience Orthopedic Institute wrote the book was to provide validated scientific research to convince the chronic pain sufferer that in the vast majority of cases "Hurt does not equal harm". This in turns reduces the "threat" value of pain (including all those scary diagnosises about your condition by the medical community) that frightens these people thereby further contributing directly to the pain experience. Hence once the pain sufferer has a deep understanding of the pain process then simply by reminding him/herself that "hurt does not always equal harm" when experiencing pain can help reset the brain and related systems (ie self-talk).
Cheers - Gordon |
| scottjmurray |
Posted - 02/04/2008 : 20:14:06
austini - This is some interesting info, and it supports the realization I've been having about how we generate our own realities through the way we are thinking. It makes sense that if you think about pain and sorrow all the time, you will see it everywhere and feel it. The problem that people have with TMS basically comes down to a loss of control over their reality through misinformation. They, in essence, forfeit their mental domain to the mythology of the medical community and suffer for it.
What I've realized is that it was me the entire time that was creating my particular TMS-constructs. Once I accepted that all the repeating nonsense and fears in my head were all caused by me, I was able to stop.
Author of tms-recovery.com
A collection of articles on emotions, lifestyle changes, and TMS theory. |
| austini |
Posted - 02/04/2008 : 18:56:56
Hi Gang,
I recently read an amazing book called "Explain Pain" which explains in laymans speak how and why chronic pain occurs. Now this book is based on scientifically validated research. It is only in the last decade that neuroscientists have had technology such as advanced brain imaging and cellular biology to understand pain to a very high degree. Unfortunately the vast majority of this incredible information is not known by the bulk of health practioners at this stage.
Amazingly it comes down to 2 very simple things:
1. "Even if problems do exist in your joints, muscles, ligaments, nerves, immune system or anywhere else, it won't hurt if your brain thinks you are not in danger."
2. "In exactly the same way, even if no problems whatsoever exist in your body tissues, nerves or immune system, it will still hurt if your brain thinks you are in danger."
I won't even begin to try to explain in any detial what happens in the brain and body to cause this but it is much more complex than Sarno's explanation. However ironically it doesn't really matter because the conclusion that the book wants to drive home is that "HURT RARELY EQUALS HARM" in the case of chronic pain. So it basically validates this part of Sarno's conclusions with scientific data.
The other very important description is that one should think of your brain like an orchestra that can play all sorts of tunes such as happiness, excitement, sadness etc and of course pain. But if you start to obsess over your pain your brain stops playing all the other tunes and gets to the point where all it is playing is the pain tune. Hence it is critical that you get back to living life again as fully as possible to get the other tunes in your brain's orchestra playing again so that the pain tune loses its dominance. In particular seek out activities that generate laughter. They however recommend a paced and graded exposure approach return to physical activity to minimise the possibility of flare ups that will scare you and get the pain tune going stronger again.
Other very interesting information is that through brain imaging they showed that imagined movement uses the same parts of the brain as real movement. So if a particular movement such as bending causes pain you can imagine the movement so that it triggers the movement neurotags in your brain without usually triggering the associated pain neurotages. Thus visualisations such as those suggested in Amir's book certainly fit with this strategy. However "Explain Pain" also gives many more strategies for retraining the brain to accept previously painful movement such as use of gravity, eyes closed and looking in the mirror to name a few.
So it seems it is our oversensitised nervous system and its master the brain (drawing on all our anxieties, fears, beliefs and pain memories including those from an original injury etc) that is nearly always behinds chronic pain and NOT damage to the tissues. This of course assumes that if there was an initial injury the typical healing time has past.
The other amazing information was how pain moves around the body due to backfiring nerves. From memory this is because when oversensitisation occurs signals from nerves to the brain start being sent in all directions causing pain and/or infammation in areas no where near the original pain site.
I'm not really doing the book justice with my ramblings. I stil can't believe that this scientifically proven information is unknown by so much of the medical profession. Mind you they probably wouldn't want you to know it as they would lose a lot of business. It is certainly known by a lot of the medical profession that there is an enormous amount of people getting around with all sorts of degeneration and mechanical problems who experience no pain at all. But sure enough if you go to a chiropractor or orthopedic surgeon etc they will fill you with fear about your herniated discs, pinched nerves and degeneration ... and schedule you for surgery and/or lots of treatment. Don't underestimate the power of the dollar.
Cheers - Gordon
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| vikki |
Posted - 02/04/2008 : 17:15:36
quote:
Originally posted by airbulb
I suppose my question is: does it matter - do I have to know what the motivation is - if I like the idea of it being the unconscious mind trying to prevent me from doing my job will I still get relief. Or if I go along with the distraction hypothesis without truly believing it - will I still be successful.
I don't think it matters one bit I spent weeks analyzing every detail of TMS theory, and I spent a lot of time trying to understand it completely. I thought I had to have a completely accurate model of how it works. And in the meantime, my pain got worse.
For me, improvement came by challenging the physical diagnosis. It didn't matter why I had pain. All that mattered was that there was no physical cause. I could run, lift, sit in unergonomic chairs, or whatever without causing myself physical harm. This was unbelievably good news to me -- as long as I was willing to bear the pain, I could do whatever I wanted. So I did -- and the pain got better! Now, this was not an instant cure -- I did have to challenge it, and I did have to bear a considerable amount of pain. But in retrospect, it was a great investment. |
| scottjmurray |
Posted - 02/04/2008 : 17:14:58
quote:
I do however have some residual doubt, and (as I've learned today from reading one of your other posts) I have some toxic beliefs that need reprogramming. For example I believe that my mouse is what makes my arm/shoulder hurt. It seems obvious now that this has been a problem but it was so ingrained it's taken me until now to realize it!
Do you have any tips for changing beliefs?
I've got some tips.
Find the post I did on "TMS support structures." You mentioned doubt, and that's the biggest one. But how to get rid of it?
Reprogramming the belief structure is really tough if you don't know what you are doing, or if you aren't fully aware of what those beliefs are. You need to drag the whole mess in your head out into the light and continually affirm to yourself the proper beliefs. We actively create out own reality, and for those of us who have TMS, we create really terrible ones.
You mentioned that you still have an erroneous belief that your mouse is causing some of your pain. I have given this sort of thought pattern the label "false-connection" in the book that I'm writing about TMS. The best way to combat this belief is to set aside several times a day to repeat that you have a problem with it. In the morning, in the afternoon, and at night, repeat to yourself ten times in a row "I have a problem with creating false-connections in my head about TMS." This will serve as your home base for changing this belief.
The second part of restructuring is to actively combat it in your brain every single time it occurs during the day. Whenever you catch that thought in your head, say "I'm creating a false-connection and perpetuating TMS" or whatever phrase works for you. I mean every single time you do it. Eventually you will become more and more aware of how you are nocebo-ing yourself into pain with this thought. It'll hit a point where you figure out how ridiculous it is to keep believing that thought in spite of everything you've learned about TMS, and you will stop. As you can see here, admitting you have the problem over and over again increases your awareness of it, and that awareness in turn leads to freedom over the thought pattern.
I call this process the Mindfulness Recovery Protocol, or MRP. It's the last step in the recovery process. Do this sort of mindfulness exercise with every single structure that supports TMS inside your consciousness. You can also use the same technique to free yourself from whatever emotional burdens are causing you tension in your life.
Author of tms-recovery.com
A collection of articles on emotions, lifestyle changes, and TMS theory. |
| qso |
Posted - 02/04/2008 : 16:10:35
Yes, these are precisely the kind of beliefs that seem "innocent" yet dropping them is absolutely the key to recovery (in hindsight). My biggest one was that I thought that sitting at the computer for too long day after day for years had really damaged my back - but it is interesting that I didn't get "RSI" - I believe this is because I was already fully convinced that RSI was TMS and have a friend who had totally recovered from it some years ago Sarno-style.
And yes, I too focussed on resolving the issues too much and getting nowhere. In fact I was systematically going down a list, spending about two weeks on each item and when all except one was crossed off I believed that when I crossed off the last one I would be free. But it didn't happen and I couldn't understand why. I didn't know it but recovery was still 3 months away.
As for reprogamming tips - spend some time thinking about and contemplating how fantastic the human body is at repairing physical damage. One thing that nobody could provide an answer to is this: why is it that when you cut somebody open to do major surgery, in a month that person is going about their lives almost normal and in 2-3 months they are running around as if nothing happened? Why after a year was I in worse shape than someone who has had that? Why was my Dad, who had two heart procedures done, in better shape than I was? The answer is that there is no physical damage to heal..TMS sufferers are continually being attacked by their brain.
And contemplate this: Most of the cells in your body are continually being replaced with new ones. Cells die and are replaced all the time. Some on a daily basis some at longer intervals. That's what differentiates us from something that is not alive. Muscles, in doing their work, actually use up the protein they are made of and this protein is replaced every day. Muscles do not wear out.
And this: people who live to be 80,90,100 have no problem holding themselves up against gravity. Yet someone with TMS half or a quarter of the age might not be able to stand or sit for more than 15 minutes at a time. This is not wear and tear. It is a viscous and continuous attack by the brain via oxygen deprivation.
You get the idea. A major problem is all the garbage on the internet and in books written by the unenlightened. At one point I decided I would take advice from professional muscle-builders in order to strengthen my back muscles. I even ordered a huge tub of whey protein (it remains in my office unopened because I recovered before starting the program). However, the muscle-building websites were useful for reminding me that muscles (including the ones that you use for your mouse) are replenished and topped up everyday as long as you are eating ok.
Anyway, spend some time contemplating the human body everyday and try to filter out the garbage, keeping your knowledge base of the physical body clean and sensible. |
| fup |
Posted - 02/04/2008 : 15:36:51
yes that helps a lot. Thanks.
I think I've been working too hard on finding any emotional issues I have and I seem to be getting nowhere.
I do however have some residual doubt, and (as I've learned today from reading one of your other posts) I have some toxic beliefs that need reprogramming. For example I believe that my mouse is what makes my arm/shoulder hurt. It seems obvious now that this has been a problem but it was so ingrained it's taken me until now to realize it!
Do you have any tips for changing beliefs? |
| qso |
Posted - 02/04/2008 : 14:21:06
See some of my other posts for more info. But in a nutshell:
One by one, removing all, and I mean all, sources of doubt (that the symptoms were being caused entirely by the brain). I didn't know that was the goal so it took a year. However, I kept retaining small pieces of doubt and I didn't realize how critically hindering this was (e.g. 'seems like my problem is too serious to be explained entirely by TMS, maybe I do have a little injury', or 'my muscles must be weak from a year of inactivity I don't think I'll recover compeletely without building my strength back'. Note that even something as innocent
sounding as believing a heat pad is going to help recovery counts as doubt and a physical treatment and was a hinderance.
However, by trial and error each piece of doubt was removed, one by one. And when I let go of the final false belief, and I mentally declared EVERYTHING that I could think of to be totally useless to help with my problem -it was one of the most amazing experiences I have ever had. I could feel the symptoms literally evaporating the moment I made that declaration and I even think I perceived my brain being reprogammed. In a matter of hours I had regained my full strength to the point where I had forgotten what it was like to feel normal. It was like a deamon had left me as in one of those movies. And because the problem had been fixed at the source I felt a deep 'knowledge' in the same way that you know 1+1=2 that it was never coming back. And it hasn't. For extra insurance I spend a few minutes every night confirming my belief that my TMS was caused entirely by my brain and that I understand why I got it and that I know it can't come back, and that I acknowledge the inner child in my subconscious got angry/scared/upset (don't know which-perhaps they are all the same thing) and that I will 'look out' for him from now on. That's the only mental work I do now, my life is the same as before, if not better, because I enjoy everything so much more, even the mundane stuff, because I know what it's like to be totally incapaciated.
Hope that helps. |
| fup |
Posted - 02/04/2008 : 13:42:52
gso - so what did work for you? |
| qso |
Posted - 02/04/2008 : 13:33:15
Lidge - I think it is more than semantics. You see, once people learn about TMS they know the pain is supposed to distract them but it doesn't -people spend huge amounts of time trying to be undistracted, especially during the most painful episodes and still the TMS does not go away. Certainly I spent huge gobs of time before recovery deliberately focussing on the issues and still the TMS did not go away. As much as I respect Sarno and think he is decades ahead of his time, the distraction part only has the status of a hypothesis. It happens to be his preferred interpretation of what he has seen but it is not a unqiue explanation of the observational data. There are other equally viable interpretations which do not contradict the observational facts and infact are less puzzling. In any case, I think we all agree that the interpretation is not important for recovery.
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| qso |
Posted - 02/04/2008 : 13:23:58
...And I think it is important to realize that the conflict does not have to be resolved in order to recover from TMS- it seems enough to simply acknowledge it (albeit at a deep level). I didn't resolve any of my conflicts - I still have them all. Yet the TMS hasn't returned. I did change my attitude towards many of the conflicts but that was only *after* I recovered. So it seems that even changing attitude towards the conflicts is not necessary for recovery. This means that you don't necessarily have to change your job right away even if it is the cause of the TMS. |
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