| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| koukla |
Posted - 12/21/2007 : 13:30:33
Right now I am reading The Artist's Way by Julia Cameron. In one part she mentioned that blocked creative people often get psychosomatic ailments as a way to avoid fully utilizing their creativity. I know this is the case with me and part of the reason why I developed TMS in the first place. After about a year, I finally got back into my artwork and I was so scared to at first--talk about conditioning! Does anyone else out there consider themselves "creative" or "artistic" and think this related to their TMS? |
| 19 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| campbell28 |
Posted - 01/07/2008 : 09:19:03
A quick reading recommendation - i got Ted Hughes' letters for Christmas and he writes about quite a lot of stuff that is hugely relevant to creativity and TMS.He himself seems to have suffered from a form of TMS - heart palpitations during stressful times or when he'd offered to do readings etc out of a sense of duty but didn't really want to. He talks about the inner child; of having to come to terms with one's darker self, letting the unconscious into your writing etc etc.
even apart from all this they're great letters and well worth a read. |
| armchairlinguist |
Posted - 12/30/2007 : 22:38:52
quote:
I'd guess that most people with TMS were exposed to too much criticism too early in life, which they internalized as little goodist toddlers.
I think this is a huge thing. I don't think of myself as a creative person now, but when I was younger I did lots of kinds of art projects and wanted to be an artist or an author. But there really was no room in the way I was raised for understanding that your first products are almost never much good, and learning to do better by practicing and learning. Praise was reserved for things that were good, so I ended up concentrating all my attention on doing well in school and things like that.
There was very little connection with intuition and emotion, which are important parts of art. I think I actually am creative but had it so stifled that it was basically lost, along with a huge part of my self. It's still really hard for me to just pick up something and try, and fail to represent or make what I want, and just keep trying. I'm too inclined to conclude that I can't do it or if I do it will just keep being bad because I am 'bad at that'. I see this habit in my mother, in particular, as well. She is convinced she is 'bad at' crosswords. I used to think I was too, but a few years ago sat down with a friend who does them, and we worked some together and she taught me some tricks, and now I can do them pretty well.
I am learning that there is a big difference between aiming for perfection and aiming for improvement and eventually, excellence.
--
It's not 100% belief that's required, but 100% commitment. |
| art |
Posted - 12/30/2007 : 13:05:37
Hi Wavy....Thanks for your interest Check your e-mail....
Penny, my hat's off to you in your progress against perfectionism...There's perfectionism that's good and necessary, but there's a point where it becomes counter-productive...Takes much wisdom to know the difference... |
| Penny |
Posted - 12/29/2007 : 22:54:37
quote:
Originally posted by koukla
Does anyone else out there consider themselves "creative" or "artistic" and think this related to their TMS?
Great thread. Absolutely! I am a writer and some of my greatest articles were created at times in my life where I needed to be detached from my own personal story. Last year I endured a miscarriage during a weekend I was on deadline to write a profile piece on this amazing philanthropist. I didn't think of asking for an extension. Instead, I threw myself into my writing work and was able to absorb myself in my work with such entirety I didn't feel the emotion of the loss I was going thru. Since then I've done a ton of work to understand my denial/avoidance of loss and have experienced great sadness over my loss. These past few weeks especially, as I near the anniversary of losing my twins.
The frustration I feel when I am not able to let go of my worries and lose myself in my work can cause me to have panic attacks (TMS) and carpal tunnel flare ups, and even swollen ankles: My TMS buddy tries to distract me in many ways. I carry on thru them now, and realize they are transient and sometimes part of the process that leads me to that sacred space where I can create.
I am a perfectionist in my writing--like you ART  . (Here in this Forum though, I don't allow myself to edit my words or typos.) Before writing I need to have a great understanding of my subject in order to begin. Once I feel confident in that, I limit myself and identify several key points based on my audience (my head always swirling with many other things I'd much prefer to write about). Then I write, start to finish, meticulously crafting the words, for hours sometimes 12 straight. The next day I read thru, editing only slightly, and now I'm happy to say ... I just let it go. It's good enough. The old TMS-infested me would rewrite, reorganize, analyze, obsess, beat myself up ... aggggghhhh, but now, I say to myself, "that will do," and it works. Editors actually seem to like my work more since I stopped obsessing ... wasting countless hours trying to achieve some unobtainable goal--pleasing everyone including myself--I'm surely my worst critic. It's not possible to achieve perfection in writing: It's too subjective a thing, and that's as it's supposed to be. Now I choose my writing to perfectly imperfect, and I let it go.
Now, to write my own book? I have not found the way to allow myself to begin. There's a thing! I can write everyone else's stories, but not my own. That stinks!
>|< Penny
"Feeling will get you closer to the truth of who you are than thinking."
~ Eckhart Tolle
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| Wavy Soul |
Posted - 12/29/2007 : 22:13:33
what have you published, Art?
(you can tell me in private if you want)
Wavy
Love is the answer, whatever the question |
| art |
Posted - 12/27/2007 : 19:03:04
I think we're basically saying the same thing...To write well, you need talent. Failing that, I do not believe you can learn to write. That said, talent by itself is not enough. It obviously takes a lot of work to develop as an artist...
Writing in my opinion is all about "voice" and "ear." Both are necessary, and neither in my opinion can be learned if they're not present to begin with. Voice, again in my opinion, is having some sort of authorial presence, a personality that shines through on the page. Ear has to do with having a sense of objectivity with respect to ones own work. It also has a bearing on dialogue, being able to "hear" what sounds genuine and authentic on the page... |
| campbell28 |
Posted - 12/27/2007 : 11:45:41
I would disagree about writing well not being a 'learnable' skill. Certainly you have to have an innate ability to write. But that in itself is no good unless you develop it, learn how to use it, learn to structure it, and apply yourself to it.
Unless you are someone like Zadie Smith who can sit down aged 24 and write a stonking novel straight off ( and even if you are Zadie Smith), you will need to hone your craft - whether you are producing poems, articles, short stories, whatever.
That is something you learn by experience and practice. Some people who are very talented will never produce a finished work. Some people who are less naturally talented will work and work and work and eventually come up with the goods.
Equally, you need to learn how to balance your own temperament with your talent - which is clearly where the TMS types have issues due to the perfectionist and self-critical streak that can derail a project before it even starts. I don't think the 'goodist' aspect helps either because you do need in some ways to be pretty selfish and focused to really get to grips with a creative project.
So although I agree you need to be born with an ability, I think you actually spend your whole life really learning how to use it. That goes for any job or talent, not just artistic ones.
I have the same problem with singing as I do with writing - I have a good voice and I know how to use it, but the fear of failure is so strong that in performance I can totally crash out on notes I'm usually fine with. Again I used to think this was a physical, technique problem but have now realised it's really psychological.
So I have to learn how to deal with my demons in order to really make the most of my ability. Being born with a talent is lovely, but it's not necessarily going to make you a living, or make you happy, unless you really learn how to use it.
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| art |
Posted - 12/26/2007 : 11:56:15
All true enough...We all work differently. Because I'm such a perfectionist, I never write a complete first draft with the intention of revising thereafter. Instead, I work on one paragraph at a time, not moving on to the next until I feel the first is sufficiently polished..By the time my "first draft" is complete, I'm pretty far along.
Writing well is quite difficult. I honestly don't think it's a learnable skill. The ability is there or it's not. That said, there are many worthy reason's to write, and certainly practice helps, especially if there's some talent there to begin with. |
| koukla |
Posted - 12/26/2007 : 06:54:33
For me, I used the perfectionism and self criticism as a crutch and excuse to not do my daily sketching. I only wanted to see perfect finished works but didn't want to see any of the messy practice type stuff. I've since realized that I don't have to put my sketches on display if I don't want to but it is still an important part of the process. I'm starting to see my artwork more as a daily habit than as something I'm talented in. Yes, I do think I had a talent from childhood, but on another level it is a learned skill.
As for my TMS, I think it came partly from my hypersenstivity to any criticism at all. I needed to constantly hear praise from others or else I would beat myself up internally so much that I would just give up on my artwork totally. Then I wouldn't have an outlet for my emotions because I wasn't doing anything and I would feel bad that I wasn't "improving" myself. I've always felt like I had some kind of responsibility or higher calling in regards to my artwork. Finally, all the combined stresses that I was going through proved too much and these negative thoughts that were festering in me spilled out as hand pain.
I'm still not sure that I had anything repressed in me. Even when I was in the midst of my TMS pain I could have spoken articulately about my internal strife. I think it just got to a point where I couldn't keep everything under wraps anymore. I just don't think I had made the connection between the pain and my emotions. Once I realized the correlation between the pain and the emotions (which I was very well aware of), the TMS went away. I didn't have to do any deep emotional digging and I still feel inadequate and self critical a lot of the time. Maybe over the course of many years I will be able to make changes in my thinking about myself, but I am not going to worry about it. |
| campbell28 |
Posted - 12/26/2007 : 06:33:40
yes I think it's having the courage to write badly and not be scared of it; and also to write, like you say logan, from the inner uncritical place. Ted Hughes said something about writing having to escape the brain's secret policeman.
it's definitely not about being uncritical. you have to go over and over and refine and refine, and for that you need the perfectionist fine finishing bit of the brain.
but in order to have something to refine in the first place you have to let go and not be scared of what comes out. if you look at some of the crap that wordsworth and tennyson - and shakespeare - wrote when they were having an off day!
funnily enough my family also has a lot of frustrated artists. my mum's side of the family were all military people - for several generations back - but were also variously talented artists / musicians / writers - several of whom either topped themselves, ended up in the loony bin or didn't pursue a professional creative career because they couldn't take the pressure.
i am also intending to break the mould and not let whatever it is that stopped my ancestors running with their talents stop me as well. however long it takes! |
| Logan |
Posted - 12/26/2007 : 01:52:58
Oh, I didn't mean to suggest I'm not or that one shouldn't be critical of one's finished, sent out to be published work. I am. You should.
But I had to learn - keep having to learn - that too much criticism too early in the process is a killer. I sometimes think of it in relation to baking. Looking at a first draft too judgmentally is like looking at unbaked cookie dough and cursing yourself for how it doesn't look a thing like cookies.
Writing with the voices of imagined critics in my ear is just as counterproductive and ends up producing writing that's dead on arrival. It might be grammatically and stylistically correct but it just lies there on the page - at least this is true for me - because I wasn't willing to surrender control to the irrational, uncritical part of my brain and write a first or second or third "messy" draft to see where it would take me.
And maybe sometimes it won't take me anywhere, not that piece; but the next one will. This is what I'm struggling with now, less now, but still. That maybe I have to write some derivative or common themed stories to get that stuff out of my stystem so that I can write some really good stuff.
I saw Amy Tan speak in person once and she shocked me when she said she wrote a novel after the Joy Luck Club but threw it away because she knew it wasn't the novel she'd wanted it to be and then she began work on a third novel that most people think is her second.
She said she didn't feel she'd wasted any time or effort because she never could have written the third book if not for the second one. I guess that's what I'm aiming for now, that sort of perseverance and faith in my talents; the heart to carry on even when something doesn't turn out right away.
I'd guess that most people with TMS were exposed to too much criticism too early in life, which they internalized as little goodist toddlers.
Like I was saying, a kind of perfectionism runs in my family - genetics? upbringing? both, probably. I come from a long line of frustrated artists and artisans who gave up doing what they loved because they threw a hissy fit and quit before their talents caught up to their ambitions. They felt like if it wasn't "good enough" then why bother keeping on with it. And I'll be damned if I'm going to do that.
Not that that's what you were saying...I didn't mean to go off on a rant in response to your post. It just kind of turned out that way. : ) "To write well, you have to be willing to write badly." That's a quote from Julia Cameron from TAW that's easier said than done, especially by us TMS'ers.
Cheers to the creative drive and getting out of its intuitive way until it's time for a little rational and critical shaping!
quote:
Originally posted by art
I'm a published writer and just speaking for myself, I can't imagine not being super critical of my own work. To me, it's part of the process. I think much depends on what your goals are. Of course it makes no sense to beat yourself up and feel like a failure as a person if your work isn't going well. And if you paint, or write, or whatever it is strictly for fun, that's another thing as well...
But art, for me, is all about the drive to make something special. By definition that's not an easy thing..
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| art |
Posted - 12/25/2007 : 09:00:28
I'm a published writer and just speaking for myself, I can't imagine not being super critical of my own work. To me, it's part of the process. I think much depends on what your goals are. Of course it makes no sense to beat yourself up and feel like a failure as a person if your work isn't going well. And if you paint, or write, or whatever it is strictly for fun, that's another thing as well...
But art, for me, is all about the drive to make something special. By definition that's not an easy thing..
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| campbell28 |
Posted - 12/23/2007 : 09:11:33
this is so interesting, it's kind of another part of the jigsaw of figuring out where TMS comes from.
by the way basil, glad you are doing so much better and hope the interview goes / went well.
it seems like fear is a really big suppressed emotion as well as anger. I keep thinking about this recently; having realised I was afraid of the future,afraid of failing but also afraid of writing at all. is it because you can't necessarily control or direct creativity that it's so scary?
i also wondered whether this hits people when they get older because when you're young, if you're creative (at least the way I found it) it all just came very easily and naturally.when i was at school I used to sit up in bed late at night merrily writing away for hours.
since going to university and getting older, that ability really got eroded. I wasn't used to having to sit down and 'make' myself write: it used to just appear. But as you get older and busier you have to be a lot more disciplined and organised about fitting stuff like writing into your life.
so you hit a kind of block because something that used to just happen suddenly has to be MADE to happen, and that feels wrong, and like a chore, and all the joy goes out of it.
i think i shall be pondering this some more over christmas.
Happy christmas everybody - hope you have a good, relaxing, unperfectionistic and nonstressy time! |
| koukla |
Posted - 12/23/2007 : 07:24:29
Logan, I understand what you mean about trying to do something less "risky." After I finished a 2 year associate's degree program, I was about to apply to RISD (a famed art school) when I decided to major in history and economics instead. I ended up getting a 4.0 average in school and I still love history, but I really regret not going for what I wanted to deep down. |
| Logan |
Posted - 12/22/2007 : 11:52:46
To continue my post...
A couple of people posted about how critical they are of their own work and how that contributed to their TMS. I think that's potentially HUGE.
How many frustrated creatives are out there clogging the medical system?? My mother, a frustrated painter is one. I'm sure. She just called to tell me she was going to the doctor for yet more tests to see why her side is numb, her back aches, she has indigestion...
I'm still critical of my work but The Artist's Way, and now grad school workshops have helpd me see that any creative endeavor is a long, messy process full of trial and error. I still get frustrated by this but I do understand that no one can expect perfection "out of the box."
But I used to be so very critical of my writing that I abandoned my teenage dream of becoming a writer because I thought that if I wasn't "perfect" at writing right away that meant I didn't have talent. I didn't understand that the writers I admired - Hemingway, Fitzgerald et al - didn't just sit down and type out a flawless, finished manuscript.
I come from a working class family and went to a public school and no one in my family or at my school could have explained to me that professional writers build their "master pieces" draft by draft by draft. In addition, these writers weren't 17 (the age I decided I should chuck writing because I obviously didn't have "it"); they were in their 30s or 40s, at least, when they started producing their acclaimed novels.
Anyway, long story short. I think part of the reason my TMS got progressively worse when it did - age 28 to 32 - was that I was trying to push myself into becoming a photographer because this was someow less "risky" than writing. I also was working at a series of more beauracratic jobs to finance my increasingly expensive photo habit.
I was in a photo class when we had to do a multimedia project. I wrote a short prose piece to go with an image and everyone in the class really responded to it and praised it. It really hit me in the solar plexus.
I'd decided to maybe go back to school in "multimedia" when I finally decided to give Sarno a try based on a chat board recommend and I'd happened to pick up a used copy of The Artist's Way.
No need to tell you the whole darn story but...the confidence that I gained through TAW and curing myself of TMS helped me get the nerve up to apply to an MFA grad program in creative writing. I'm half way through the 3 years now and also teaching Freshmen Comp.
I have yet to be published but I've gotten some praising hand written rejection letters, which in this age of automated responses, as my writing profs tell me, is a good sign that publication is around the corner.
And at least I feel like I'm good at something that I love doing. It's a far cry from where I was back when I was suffering from TMS neck/shoulder pain and working at a public art program as admin asst.
I've posted on here before crediting Sarno for my "new life" as a writer. But this thread also made me realize that perhaps the reason I recovered so completely and so quickly was that I was really working Julia Cameron's self discovery exercises, including her "morning pages."
For those of you who are thinking of buying TAW, I recommend it. I didn't like the sequels as well but TAW, it was exactly the creative spark that I needed. |
| koukla |
Posted - 12/22/2007 : 10:24:40
quote:
Campbell28 said:
the tms was a great distraction because it physically stopped me from writing. i didnt have to worry about whether I would become a great writer because I couldn't actully write - brilliant!
I totally get this and I think this is what happened to me too. At the time I developed tms, I just got my first office job out of college. It was in insurance and was a lot of pressure. I was actually making really good money for entry level and I somehow thought that I didn't deserve the position and that they would "find out" that I wasn't qualified (completely inaccurate!). At the same time, I was trying to work on my own artwork after work and I felt like I had no time for myself to really devote to my art like I wanted to. I was feeling very discouraged that I was not producing at the quality level that I aspired to and art started to seem more like a chore than a pleasure.
Basil, I know what you mean about the RSI-TMS people being creative pushy types. This trend has been noted even in traditional RSI literature. When I was in school, I remember a friend of mine wrote a paper on the connection between creativity and "madness"--not to say people with TMS are crazy, but interesting to think about.
The Artist's Way is definitely still in print--I checked mine out of the library but you can get it on Amazon too. I have seen it in the big box bookstores as well, so I would check there before ordering it. Julia Cameron has quite a big following and she is a writer by trade so she tailors a lot of her examples towards writers (but you could be any kind of artist). The book deals with a lot of the things artists do to self-sabotage: bad time management, co-dependent relationships, self criticism, etc. It is very interesting and actually fits very well with the TMS theory, giving specifics that artists can use. |
| basil |
Posted - 12/22/2007 : 06:01:01
I have always been visually artistic and had it drilled it to me at school that we should always use our talents. First time round in education i found it hard to express myself as thought people viewed my work as 'crap'. Second time round I gained more confidence but my perfectionist side drove me to the point of madness. Like campbell I also set myself personal targets and insisted that i had to be at a professional level by the end of Universisty to stand a chance of getting a job. I set these targets on top of my univesisty modules so I was essentially doing twice the work. No wonder I ended up with tms!
I was actually thinking about this the other day before this thread. It seems alot of us who develop RSI - TMS are quite creative and push ourselves a bit too much :)
Taking a step back and deciding what I want to do and not what is percieved as 'cool' to other people has helped alot. I always have the need to impress other people. TMS is allowing me to control this and tend to my needs.
Its all very interesting. |
| campbell28 |
Posted - 12/22/2007 : 04:36:59
definitely for me too. i have always written - stories, poems, the lot - since i was tiny and always wanted to write books when i 'grew up'. I took up journalism because I was trying to write a novel and getting nowhere and thought I should have a fallback career ( it was less rational at the time though: i was drifting; my mum said ' why don't you apply for this course' and i couldn't see any other way forward).
However with the creative writing, as with the journalism, I think I was putting too much pressure on myself. I had it in my head that I needed to write this damn novel before I was 30 (when I was small I used to want to write one before I was 18, which seemed perfectly reasonable).
when I left my hideous news journalism job with chronic 'rsi', i thought ' great, a perfect opportunity to get back to writing my novel!' despite the fact i couldn't type and would soon stop even handwriting.
i carried on dictating bits and bobs of stuff onto tape while i was ill, but none of it really went anywhere ( which was something i'd felt for a long time anyway). I'd really stopped enjoying writing, and was doing it only as a duty. only since realising all this about TMS and taking the pressure off myself, has the creative flow really started coming back.
I think this is also because I have had to address a lot of emotional stuff I was ignoring before. I can be honest in my writing in a way I never was before and that was what was missing. It's also about not being too perfectionist - the usual TMS stuff, if its not perfect I tend to give up, and am also so scared of failing that I can't start in the first place.
the tms was a great distraction because it physically stopped me from writing. i didnt have to worry about whether I would become a great writer because I couldn't actully write - brilliant!
now i'm just letting it happen and enjoying it, and if i'm not enjoying it, I stop.
really want to read the artist's way - someone else mentioned it to me about a year ago but it sounds like it might be out of print - did you get it from amazon koukla? |
| Logan |
Posted - 12/21/2007 : 17:39:34
Definitely.
I actually began doing the Artist's Way exercises concurrently with reading Sarno's books and kicking TMS. I believe that JC's insights and her exercises were helpful in not only getting me back into writing, but also they helped me uncover hidden hurts and angers that had been festering for a long time as various TMS equivalents.
It's funny that you posted about this when you did. I have an acquaintance that mentioned she liked to write a few weeks ago. Yesterday I drove to a couple of bookstores looking for a copy of TAW to give her as a gift (couldn't find a copy).
She's been seeing a chiropractor lately for neck pain and she declined my offer to lend her the Mindbody Connection, so I was thinking maybe TAW might work without it being so threatening...
I'd love to write more about this but I believe my pasta is going from al dente to soggy on the stove so I better go...
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