| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| la_kevin |
Posted - 12/07/2007 : 04:02:05
This week I got back to "rigorous exercise". I'm back to swimming about an hour every day. I also started stretching more lately. After swimming or various times of the day. I notice that I don't feel so "tight" when I do this and it definitely improve my overall feeling. I feel more limber and relaxed.
I remember Sarno mentioning stretching (Healing Back Pain) if I'm correct. He said something about runners and athletes dropping stretching altogether. Is it counter productive to TMS? I'm not doing it to counter TMS, I do it because it makes me more limber, and that's not some silly "myth", it's a biological fact. In fact I have more courage to stretch now and am not so worried about "tearing something".
I think after years of pain you get into a zone of comfort with respect to range of movement. So your body gets tighter and tighter over the years. Why shouldn't I reverse that? Isn't it just part of being more physically fit?
I'm asking because I don't have the Sarno audio book right now. The CD's got all scratched so I can't refer back. Do I remember correctly about the anti stretching comments? And if it is true, why would someone not calculate that into recovery? I know the people at "Tar Pit Yoga" put stretching into the equation.
I'm thinking loose muscles can move better, I've always been taught that. Range of movement has a lot to do with minor muscle injury. So where am I wrong? And if I'm wrong, are we to believe that all these fitness gurus have it wrong and stretching is another placebo?
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| 20 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| art |
Posted - 12/12/2007 : 21:03:08
quote:
Originally posted by AnthonEE
quote:
Originally posted by art
If someone could show me a wild animal who stretched for ten minutes before taking off after his prey, I might change my mind...
That would be funny. I am imagining a cheetah with his foot up on a log, stretching his hamstrings.
Laughing out loud. Exactly  |
| AnthonEE |
Posted - 12/12/2007 : 10:32:23
quote:
Originally posted by art
If someone could show me a wild animal who stretched for ten minutes before taking off after his prey, I might change my mind...
That would be funny. I am imagining a cheetah with his foot up on a log, stretching his hamstrings. |
| art |
Posted - 12/12/2007 : 09:13:39
quote:
Originally posted by electraglideman
I agree art. Cold stretching does more harm than good.
And yet people can be so defensive about such things....I was once kicked off a biking forum for making the same claim about cold stretching. The anger from the members and moderator was just insane. |
| electraglideman |
Posted - 12/11/2007 : 17:31:01
I agree art. Cold stretching does more harm than good. |
| art |
Posted - 12/11/2007 : 16:22:46
Much more sensible, to simply start out slowly. Cold stretching is simply not helpful and in fact can actually hurt...
If someone could show me a wild animal who stretched for ten minutes before taking off after his prey, I might change my mind...But short of that, I don't think so.... |
| chester |
Posted - 12/11/2007 : 13:41:17
My TMS doc yesterday gave me the thumbs-down on stretching, even as a warm-up before running. He suggested instead that I just start off slowly. Quite honestly, I've always done only a token amount of stretching in advance just so I wouldn't feel stupid if I did injure myself. Walking a half mile or so at an increasing pace and then starting a slow jog sounds like a completely reasonable alternative to me. |
| electraglideman |
Posted - 12/11/2007 : 12:31:21
"Stretching to 'fix" structural problems in an attempt to relieve chronic pain is contradictory to TMS." That statement is true.
" They do this to make their muscles more flexible to reduce injuries." I believe this statement is also true from personal experience. Can I prove it? NO |
| Dave |
Posted - 12/10/2007 : 23:08:51
quote:
Originally posted by electraglideman
...They do this to make their muscles more flexible which reduces injuries.
There is no evidence that stretching reduces injuries.
Making muscles more flexible? Sure. But prevent injuries? Who knows.
Doing stretching, such as yoga or pilates or other discipline, for overall health, strength, and conditioning, is a perfectly reasonable thing to do.
Stretching to "fix" structural problems in an attempt to relieve chronic pain is contradictory to TMS.
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| electraglideman |
Posted - 12/10/2007 : 17:58:44
If you ever arrive at a High School, College, or Professional football game early enough you will be able watch the players STRETCH. They go through a whole routine of stretching all of the major muscle groups. They do this to make their muscles more flexible which reduces injuries.
Now, will stretching reduce your TMS pain? Yes it can, but only short term. I know some people look at stretching as a poor man's pain pill but I look at it as a way to stay flexible as I grow older. Everyone on this board should know it will not "cure" our TMS pain. |
| AnthonEE |
Posted - 12/10/2007 : 09:14:31
quote:
Originally posted by art
...
Bottom line for me, stay away from cold stretching. ...
No doubt about that, need to be warmed up for sure. And of all my running friends, I'm the one that stretches, yet I'm the one that's been on the sideline for several years now. So maybe it's all bunk. Of course I'm only one person and therefore not a very good "study", but it does make me wonder.
quote:
Originally posted by playsinpain
...
what's wrong with a progress metric? if progressive activity reinforces physical durability...what's the problem? ...
I'm not sure. Maybe the level of activity is a fine way to reinforce progress and recovery. I don't see any fault in that, anybody have a different view? On the other hand, it is obviously very important to avoid the trap that Kevin points out: using the activity as a way of defeating (treating) or preventing the return of TMS. I think that's the trap that's all too easy to fall into. And it applies to stretching in particular because this activity is traditionally viewed by so many as a preventive or therapeutic type of an activity. Maybe that's an old fashioned and out of date viewpoint, but many of us grew up having that drilled into us: "You'd better stretch before you [insert athletic activity here] or you'll be sorry" |
| armchairlinguist |
Posted - 12/10/2007 : 09:06:03
quote:
On the one hand it is important to resume these activities gradually to avoid setbacks. And you have to have patience when setbacks do occur. This is what both Sarno and Sopher say in their books. On the other hand how do you avoid the trap of making it a gradual "treatment" or "therapeutic" recovery plan that playsinpain is pointing out?
The gradual return is a recommendation, but it doesn't actually work for everyone. Some people pretty much get right back out there doing what they were doing. I was very non-gradual with my return to most activities.
In the case of cycling, I worked on my ramp-up as a 'training' program. I didn't have any trouble distinguishing training, or conditioning, from a 'therapeutic recovery'.
It's really all in how you think about things. Don't think too much about it. 
--
It's not 100% belief that's required, but 100% commitment. |
| art |
Posted - 12/09/2007 : 20:22:13
Posted - 12/07/2007 : 08:45:03
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quote:
Sarno is against stretches for 'healing injury', and neutral to negative on them for general health/good feeling. He claims that stretches don't really help anything, so why do them? However, I find that stretching feels good, so I do it if I feel like it. 'Feels good' is a good enough reason why for me.
And it's, I think, pretty much undeniable that regular stretching increases flexibility
Sarno is negative on stretching. It puts the focus back on the physical. Moreover, he feels it doesn't really do anything...
For some reason, this subject gets tends to get people all riled up, but the studies I've seen, show an actual slight increase in injuries on a program of cold stretching before running, and a very slight, barely statistically significant benefit from stretching afterward...
I'm working from memory here, and you'll have to find the studies yourself as it's been a long time. Also, as I recall, there weren't many.
Bottom line for me, stay away from cold stretching. I stretch very occasionally after a run for maybe 15 seconds.. |
| playsinpain |
Posted - 12/09/2007 : 19:45:10
what's wrong with a progress metric? if progressive activity reinforces physical durability...what's the problem? Say you loved watersking...or rugby...before the pain cycle hit you. Can you really say you're cured if you still avoid those activities? again, it's a question of ending rather than treating. |
| AnthonEE |
Posted - 12/09/2007 : 19:01:29
I am starting to understand why Dr Sarno has advised his patients to avoid physical therapy and any other physical activities if they shift the focus too far away from the psychological work. It's just so easy to inadvertently put attention back onto the physical, even if the practitioners are well trained in the psychological work.
For those of us that come from a very physically active and/or athletic background this seems to create a bit of a challenge (The point Kevin is making I think). If a return to "normal activities" comprises running, biking, lifting, swimming, stretching, or whatever, then it is hard to avoid letting the level of performance become some sort of metric for progress. On the one hand it is important to resume these activities gradually to avoid setbacks. And you have to have patience when setbacks do occur. This is what both Sarno and Sopher say in their books. On the other hand how do you avoid the trap of making it a gradual "treatment" or "therapeutic" recovery plan that playsinpain is pointing out?
So how do you resume normal activity (athletic activity) without checking in on your physical self to say "how am I doing with my recovery?" How can you avoid letting it become some form of metric for your progress with TMS? The answer seems to be just stop worrying so much about it and just do what you enjoy doing. Just keep it reasonable based on your age and fitness level.
Maybe if "normal activities" were centered around the sofa things would be a little easier with respect to TMS. Sometimes I wonder what drives certain people to the athletic activities in the first place. Is it part of some insecurity or fear of physical infirmity? Is it part of a perfectionist quality that has helped lead to TMS in the first place?
Does anybody have ideas about how to gradually resume (normal) athletic activity without letting it become a progress metric, or without falling into the trap of letting it becoming some sort of "treatment" or "therapeutic" activity. |
| armchairlinguist |
Posted - 12/09/2007 : 18:42:17
AnthonEE -- I'd need to check, but I believe TDM is more negative than MBP on stretching.
--
It's not 100% belief that's required, but 100% commitment. |
| playsinpain |
Posted - 12/08/2007 : 18:52:25
AnthonEE,
you said yourself that the exercise routine is now greatly "modified" from before. I'm not saying stretching is a bad thing; neither does Sarno. But the point of the exercise is to understand that nothing is physically wrong with your back....if you were benching 250 lbs. before....go out and do it now. That's how I got better...after reading the book, I went back and started back to lifting after more than a year of walking and stretching ( I had convinced myself that this "modified" routine was a fine alternative ). The challenge from the book that really got to me was to go back to pre-pain limits and see if the pain would really be as bad as my imagination thought it would...of course it wasn't, and it eventually went away completely. I'll not bore you w/ some of the equivalents I've dealt with, but you get my point. Your post tells me you are using Sarno to TREAT your pain, not END it. |
| la_kevin |
Posted - 12/07/2007 : 21:20:23
AnthonEE, I agree with your responses and thanks for the Sarno quote. I agree with Sopher too. I don't think that they conflict. I looked at the real reason I was stretching my back, and I think deep down that it was to alleviate some pain I have in a trouble spot that is always tense. Well, I woke up after a long nap and it still hurt and stiff in the exact spot, then upon thinking about it, it moved to the other spot directly on the other side like a mirror. I think it's TMS. Sometimes I do these experiments to "debunk" my theories, and I think this one can be classified as busted.
I think stretching as a feel good/relaxation thing should be my focus. And if I feel any hint of "Oh if I do this my TMS will stay away", I'm going to switch the reasoning or remember the psychological.
This week I have been exercising like I would without any pain.For instance, when I used to go swimming, I kept these "floaty" things made of Styrofoam between my thighs so I didn't have to use my legs.(fear of injury) So this week I ditched the Styrofoam and have been kicking. Lo and behold, nothing felt worse and nothing got "injured". So my mind is thinking that the EXERCISE is what is holding my TMS at bay, when it could just be the fact that I've decided to challenge the pain. So I get confused on what is really doing it for me. I'm one of those TMS people that feel better the more active I am, and I know that it causes a weird paradox when I start to feel better. I want to attribute it to the physical workout, but I know it's a trap, because I can wake up with true TMS pain the next day, even after weeks or months of steady workouts.
I should just remember I'm swimming to sleep better, feel better, breathe better, and lose weight...NOT for TMS to "go away". It's a trap that is easy to get into.
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"It's not 100% belief that's required, but 100% commitment." Armchairlinguist(?) |
| AnthonEE |
Posted - 12/07/2007 : 20:33:56
quote:
Originally posted by TraceyD
I believe that if you stretch to take care of your self as a human being then you are doing the stretching because you want to be healthy. I agree that it is totally a resuming "normal physical activity" action. If you are stretching to work through your pain, then I feel that is something different. I have just completed 13 sessions of PT which was pretty extensive, got my diagnosis of TMS from a DR in Mass. and was encouraged to do exercises that I like to do, like walking my dog, because I wasn't doing it to work on my back pain. I kind of feel that this is the same thing.
Yes, this is my point exactly! If you want to spend time stretching because it's a part of your normal activity, then you should do it. And then go for a run or lift weights, or walk your dog, or watch a movie. The point is to do what you love to do and refute the physical basis of TMS pain. And just as you need to watch for cars when you are out walking your dog, you also need to use proper stretching technique when you are stretching. Nothing wrong with learning that technique from a good PT.
But for la_kevin's question, what does Sarno say about this? I found the following in MBP, page 164
quote:
Many years ago I stopped prescribing physical therapy as part of the treatment program for TMS. Although the physical therapists were wonderful about emphasizing the psychological basis for the pain, each treatment session focused the patient's attention on his or her body, which was incompatible with my primary therapeutic goal of ignoring the physical and concentrating solely on the psychological. The same idea applies to any exercise routine designed to treat the back, whether it is in the form of stretching, strengthening or mobilizing. So I advise my patients to discontinue exercises designed to protect or otherwise help the back. The back needs no protection. Warm-up exercises prior to athletic activity are appropriate for better performance but specific exercises are otherwise unnecessary. Physical activity of all kinds is highly recommended for its pyschological and general health values.
I added the emphasis of course. From this I gather that as long as the stretching, or whatever, is not designed to treat or protect the body from the perceived physical injury or disability, or as long as it does not draw undue attention toward the body and away from the psychological work, then the activity is probably ok and probably even encouraged. |
| TraceyD |
Posted - 12/07/2007 : 20:01:06
I believe that if you stretch to take care of your self as a human being then you are doing the stretching because you want to be healthy. I agree that it is totally a resuming "normal physical activity" action. If you are stretching to work through your pain, then I feel that is something different. I have just completed 13 sessions of PT which was pretty extensive, got my diagnosis of TMS from a DR in Mass. and was encouraged to do exercises that I like to do, like walking my dog, because I wasn't doing it to work on my back pain. I kind of feel that this is the same thing. |
| AnthonEE |
Posted - 12/07/2007 : 19:34:17
quote:
Originally posted by playsinpain
.. I can absolutely assure you that spending 45 minutes on stretches you got from your PT does not coexist with anything Sarno would recommend.
I totally disagree. It is a well known fact that stretching is a beneficial part of any good exercise and fitness plan. And if fitness is part of getting along with ones life, then so be it. Recall the number one item on Dr Sopher's list of "Ten Commandments for Good Health"
quote:
1. Thou shalt exercise every day (or almost every day)."
So big deal if I learned a few exercise or stretching techniques from a good physical trainer or therapist along the way. It is not relevant, nor is it in conflict with TMS treatment as long as the activity is not an acknowledgement of or treatment for some physical "injury" or "disability" that has been properly diagnosed as TMS.
Seems to me stretching and strength training are good, especially if one has learned the proper way to do it from a good physical trainer or better yet a licensed therapist or physiatrist.
If Sarno recommends against stretching I'd be very interested to see where he says this, and more importantly why he says this. It seems very counter to any effort to refute physical disability caused by fear/pain and to return to normal (exercise) activity. |
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