| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| lidge |
Posted - 10/27/2007 : 10:34:16
After reading Sarno's books over and over - praying and hoping that this is indeed my problem- I find that there is enough information to make me feel I have TMS, but also enough to make me fear there is no way I will eliminate my pain through TMS therapy.
This is starting to eat me alive, as I wonder where the denial might be- is it a denial
of how emotions affect me physically- or denial of real structural problems that have
no good remedy.
I am gathering evidence and don't know what side to come down on. I will see a TMS doctor soon, but the fear is overtaking me.
My neck pain, which seems completely better these past few weeks (following epidural) is creeping back. I feel that spot on the back of my neck where it is exquisitely painful if I press and I can't help but think this is structural. I have mulitilevel degenerated
discs in my neck and a large osteophyte which is apparently impinging nerves. If the pain is really structural (and Sarno admits there is a spectrum) what in the world can I do other than fusion surgery? Am I kidding myself?
The back pain I think may be a distraction from the horrible neck situation. I just don't know.
To boot, I have a problem with my ear where I asked for an eartube to put in and then taken out, leaving me with a perforation which hasn't healed and is causing unbelievable problems. My neck and ear problems started last year, getting worse. When it became clear that the eartube was a failure- I developed back pain the next month. Had it since May!
I have been told either nothing is wrong, or that I am "damaged goods" as Sarno says.
I'm praying a TMS doctor can help me sort it out. Will see him soon but I'm very afraid.
When the pain is here, I'm afraid. When I'm not in pain, I feel like perhaps this is TMS.
I don't even know why I'm writing this other than to put it "out there". When I read
Sarno's books about people who were nonfunctioning due to pain, I identify- but fear that I am one of those who come down more on the structural pain end of the spectrum.
I know the fear is counterproductive, however when you gather evidence and it doesn't lead you where you hope, the fear emerges. I don't know if anyone can identify- when people who have had fusion surgery (but for the back) say that only TMS has helped them I feel elated. Elated that maybe there is hope for me. But the neck pain is back and while
I know the pain-free period may have been placebo, I can't help but wonder.
As I said, don't even know why I'm posting. Just feeling that my neck is in fact, fragile, and that life will never return to normal. TMS in conjunction with real structural problems that probably cannot be fixed is a bitter pill to swallow. The perfect storm of misery. I guess all I can do is try to face the fear in the hopes this
will help SOMETHING. Maybe just hoping someone can identify.
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| 20 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| stanfr |
Posted - 10/28/2007 : 22:27:03
When i had severe sciatica, they tried to persuade me surgery was the only option too (that is, after i tried 5 chiropractors, acupuncture, months of physical therapy, traction etc etc etc). When i first saw my MRI with bulging and herniated discs (L4,5 if i recall) i almost immediately got major numbness in my entire leg. That was atually a good thing, since it was clear that i had a psychological reaction to the 'physical' finding. I didn't take Sarno's word for it when i first read his book after finding it in the local library (i read every book on back pain, hoping to find an answer). I was skeptical, even though i related to the book, so i went to a local med school library and began reading journal articles and books on the subject. That's where i found the famous NEng journal article, and it became quickly clear that if 'mainstream medecine' had accepted the idea that herniated discs cause pain, the research wasn't so clear. I read numerous articles grasping at straws at precisely how or what mechanism was responsible for the pain. Like you, I noticed that the expected symptoms from the discs did not quite match up with where i actually felt numbness. When i questioned the spinal doc, his response was "well, its all related to the sciatic nerve...blah blah blah" Another Mercedes lighting up in his eyes. The hand "expert" i saw for my carpal tunnel (which i also cured) was so anxious to perform 4 seperate surgeries on my ulnar and carpal nerves (about $24K worth) that he suggested using his associate for a second opinion to get it past insurance  . I just ran from that butcher. So, im familiar with the routine. You clearly see that your symptoms are not making logical sense from a physical standpoint, so i urge you to stop obsessing over it and get on with the hard work mentioned here. It will get better, believe it. |
| electraglideman |
Posted - 10/28/2007 : 20:42:03
1. I ride a Harley Davidson Electraglide.
2. Along with the neck pain I had a tingle in my left thumb which has never gone away but I have become use to it and never think about it. As a matter of fact as I type this its the first time I have noticed the tingle in a long time.
3. The Doc told me there was a possibility that the surgery would not take away the pain but I had hurt so bad for so long I was willing to take the chance.
I was mad about it for a long time but Sarno says in his books to forget about it.
I haven't had neck pain in years but I still have flare ups in different parts of my body. Right now I'm fighting sciatic pain which started months ago but it is getting better every day.
I had an xray taken of my lower back which revealed a slipped disc(betwen l4 and l5). L4 has slpped foward (spondylolisthesis). The xray is scary to look at. I had to go back and reread Sarno's books again and again. He says he has never had a patient with spondylolisthesis who didn't have TMS.
I bought a copy of Sarno's lecture (the Mindbody Prescription Video). The man has a very calming voice as he explains TMS. It has really helped me. Bought it off E-Bay $25.
When this sciatic pain first started I could hardly get out of bed in the morning and I walked around humped over like a 100 year old man. I'm now back in the gym working out with about 90% of the pain gone.
1. Just keep in mind Sarno has helped thousands of people recover from their pain who have much worse spinal abnormalities than you have.
2. Do not and I repeat do not put a time limit on your recovery.
3. Keep reading Sarno and this forum. There are people here who can really help and support you. They sure have helped me over the years but you have to do the work yourself every day.
I hope this has helped you.
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| lidge |
Posted - 10/28/2007 : 19:51:00
Thanks for the link to that story skizzik. What a great post- just unbelievable -
I think Sarno is right when he says people come to him in desperation. I guess for me,
there was the thought that maybe surgery would help my neck, but maybe this back pain
served a purpose- to get me thinking about this differently so I didn't do something
I'd regret.
That doctor with his dictaphone- don't you love these guys? I wanted to throttle him just reading the story. |
| skizzik |
Posted - 10/28/2007 : 19:00:56
quote:
Originally posted by lidge
I can understand asking for the surgery- when it goes on so long you just want to put it behind you so you can go on with your life. What the heck did they say to you when you told them you were still in pain?
read what the surgeon told bb65 pre and post op.http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1836
btw, glad ya responded electra, cause I wanted to post to lidge about someone here who had "neck surgery regret" and I forgot who.
also lidge, like the neck surgery you were talking about, they say that back surgery does nothing for back pain either, only stops sciatica, so w/ that I kept telling myself "whats the point?" Might as well keep trying to think psycholgical. |
| lidge |
Posted - 10/28/2007 : 18:26:24
Electraglide - Is your name from the old Robert Blake movie?
You have me down to a tee. The fear does feed the gremlin. For me, the endless doctor
consults have taken a really bad toll- between the typical scare language used and the contradictory diagnoses, etc. I think I have just been traumatized. Underneath is a truckload of anger. So yes, the whole process of trying to rule out (or in) the physical has in itself become a rage inducing process for me.
Did you ever have neurological symptoms or arm pain or was it purely neck pain? Everything I read says that the fusion is not very effective for neck pain. So I'm really baffled how these guys can perform it in good conscience.
I can understand asking for the surgery- when it goes on so long you just want to put it behind you so you can go on with your life. What the heck did they say to you when you told them you were still in pain?
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| electraglideman |
Posted - 10/28/2007 : 16:31:58
Lidge I can tell by your post that you are overcome with fear. The TMS Gemlin feeds and grows fast on fear. As the fear grows the pain increases and the cycle begins to snowball out of proportion. Does that sound familiar?
Come to think of it the meds didn't help me either.
When I looked at my MRI I saw three discs that looked horrible. I ask the Doc, pointing to the area in my neck, "what is that?" He said with a serious voice "You've have three degenerated discs". I was thinking to myself "How in the hell am I able to even hold my head up?" I left the office feeling twice as bad as when I walked in. I wanted surgery as soon as possble. Remember this is how these guys make their living.
After I read Sarno's books I learned that having degenerated discs is a perfectly normal abnormality for every adult and most of them have absolutely no pain from it.
When we read the books and learn about people becoming pain free in two to four weeks and it doesn't happen for us the fear and anger increases because are perfectionist. Our low self-esteem goes down even further making the fear climb even higher causing the pain to, yes thats right, increase.
Like I said, I know what your going through. Hang in there.
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| lidge |
Posted - 10/28/2007 : 14:37:01
Electraglide- hey, if only the meds worked!
I'm so sorry you went through the hell of surgery with no relief.
I have one thing that I need to look into from a structural standpoint
(osteoporosis of my spine (very near to it) and how it may be affecting
my back.
I think for me, as long as there is even one "loose end" I will have doubt creeping in.
I just tried to use a leaf blower and couldn't even hold it w/o back pain.
Resuming normal activities is not happening for me right now.
I don't like it - and yes all this pain has consumed my life.
Thanks for telling me it gets better because right now it sure doesn't feel like it. |
| electraglideman |
Posted - 10/28/2007 : 12:01:49
Lidge, about 5 or 6 years ago I had the same symptoms your having with your neck. Doc said I had a pinched nerve and I could feel right where it was with my finger. It hurt night and day. It consumed my life. I had the fusion surgery and it didn't help a damn bit.
One day I read an article about Dr. Sarno and I knew it was for me. It took more than a year for the pain to gradually leave.
So I know what you are going through. Go ahead and take some pain meds to help relieve the pain for now until you see your Doctor and for crying out loud stop reading about pinched nerves and other physical abnormalities.
Its going to get better if you stay with Sarno's methods. I promise. |
| lidge |
Posted - 10/28/2007 : 11:46:44
ACL-
Re your question- its actually in the back of TDM, the portion written by Douglas Hoffman, not Sarno. But I assume since its in Sarno's book, he wouldn't disagree.
He talks about structural pain vs. psychosomatic pain-pg. 325
"There are many instances in which I believe there is a spectrum between the psychosomatic and structural as the source of pain."
Then he goes on to describe patients and how some pain is closer to the structural and some not.
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| lidge |
Posted - 10/28/2007 : 11:27:34
Also wanted to mention that I'm confused when Sarno states that pinched nerves don't cause pain, but numbness. I know a distinction is made between radiculopathy and myelopathy (spelling?) the former causing pain and perhaps numbness, the latter causing numbness. The pinched nerve could come from either a herniation or a bony spur, the latter more common in old people.
Sarno doesn't seem to make a distinction -totally discounting the pinched nerve as a cause of pain.
It would be great if Sarno had a website where he posted the MRI reports of his patients who have recovered. Be nice to see where I fit on the spectrum.
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| armchairlinguist |
Posted - 10/28/2007 : 11:13:34
Where is this bit about a spectrum of structural and psychosomatic? I don't remember anything about that. My understanding has always been that yes TMS can present in someone who also has structural problems, but Sarno believes such problems are rare and most people he treats have no structural problems at all.
Most of us are the rule and not the exception, but we all have lots of experience being otherwise when we have chronic pain. It does take time to reverse this.
--
It's not 100% belief that's required, but 100% commitment. |
| lidge |
Posted - 10/28/2007 : 10:59:06
ACL-
Yes I absolutely saw the osteophyte part of Sarno's book. I recall my MRI saying mine
was a "diffuse osteophyte formation stretching across the entire spinal canal." So I wonder whether this is more than a typical osteophyte etc. How can I not think that? But then it does not note any spinal cord compression. And despite being told that the osteophyte is pinching the nerve in three places, I do not have arm pain or numbness and my reflexes are normal. The neurosurgeon could see that yet still he attributed the pain to pinched nerves.
But yes, it is a matter of belief. I think I do need to hear from someone I trust that
this is just some "gray hair" of the spine type thing. Unfortunately it will take some time to undue the mental damage that has been done. |
| lidge |
Posted - 10/28/2007 : 10:46:25
Skizzik-
Your story is inspirational and I do thank you for posting it. It's a challenge to understand and accept that the pain is indeed created by something within us- it truly is like having a monkey on your back.
I think Dave is probably right in that it fades away and you can't quite pinpoint a moment. I do believe I must have a severe case- I'm sure that is why I feel as I do. I'd like to be one that felt relief from just reading, but clearly I am not.
I think the biggest hurdle is repudiating the physical cause. When Sarno states that
TMS is a spectrum of structural and psychosomatic, with some coming down more on one side than the other, I start to wonder am I one that is more structural? Am I kidding myself?
Really I think we should not beat ourselves up over this because after all, most people would not accept TMS - period. It takes alot to put aside what every single medical professional tells us.
I'm starting to think Sarno does not encourage us to push the exercise part of this too fasat because he understands how devastating the setbacks can be.
You are one brave guy and your post helped me alot. I have been out of commission so long that I am "chomping at the bit" for this to resolve. But I know no matter how much I want it, it takes time- maybe its my angry inner child -I want it and I want it NOW!
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| armchairlinguist |
Posted - 10/28/2007 : 10:42:56
Hey lidge, did you read what I quoted from Sarno about osteophytes?
I get the feeling you are doing a common thing and you are reading the books but you are failing to see exactly where they apply to you because your unconscious mind doesn't want you to accept those parts. Try really hard to focus on what Sarno says about your symptoms and similar. Instead of doubting, try to believe. See how what he says applies to you. See how you're similar to other people in the books.
Doubt is automatic and belief requires effort, especially to overcome the unconscious' forced blind spots.
--
It's not 100% belief that's required, but 100% commitment. |
| skizzik |
Posted - 10/28/2007 : 09:16:58
whoops we posted at the same time, I hope you read my post to you lidge. |
| skizzik |
Posted - 10/28/2007 : 09:15:58
quote:
Originally posted by lidge
I start to feel a sort of low grade panic-
what in the world can this be?
I get this too. Instead of a full out panic attack, I get this wierd malaise feeling, or fatigue, or sense I'm gonna pass out. I've gotten better control of it and the pain however. Not because I'm better than you, but I've just been doing the work for months and months, and realized the "control" has to emerge from w/ in over time w/ the constant work.
I thought I could just read the Sarno stuff over and over, but as Sarno states "if the pain (symptoms) are severe and chronic", "than that which is causing it is severe and chronic."
Now I feel that the pain (symptoms) are less severe and chronic, therefore, I've reduced/reckognized/accepted my accumulated rage to a point where it is less severe and chronic. But this took so much time. But why not, it took decades to develop. A year seems like nothing now.
I've forced myself to go golfing every wed nite w/ the guys at the end of summer. The first time I was so nauseas I thought I would never make it there. When I got there I was so happy I went. When we hit bumps on the cart, I could feel my vertebrae crack against ea other, but my back didn't break off itself. And I havent had that sensation since. (hmmmm)
I've gone 7-8 times since. The time b4 this last one, I got the dizzies so bad, and could'nt talk to the guys, I thought for sure I was gonna pass out in front of them, and it never happened. Then I reminded myself of Sensei's Adams literature that TMS (in his words PIPS psych inducd pain syndrms) fights back, and we should think of it as a seperate being that we are in battle with.
So I reminded myself that I must be on to something, or accepting something in my life in my daily journaling and my mind was cranking up the symptomps and this relaxed me, and the dizzies and BP eased up. I went to bed w/ a horrible migraine however, and was fine the next morning.
I feel the worst is behind me, and I have been where you are just this year, and used to post like you did. Just last nite however I got a flare up in the low spine so bad, and 4 mos ago I would've been fantasizing about surgeries, but I chalked it up to a "spinegraine" and automatically after a couple structural thoughts wondered what was generating tension in my life that was causing my mind to have to distract me.
I did not put the pressure on myself to get rid of the pain immediately, even though I was sitting at a fancy dinner w/ all our friends. I, Like Vikki on that plane, refused to adjust my posture and continued to slouch, and bared the knife in my back pain.
In waves the pain came and went thru out the nite as well as the malaise feeling. But I said just like the migraine I would probably be fine in the morning. And like Dave here says that TMS fades, not dissapears over nite for most. And I have no symptoms this morning. Except for the feeling I'm not 100%.
I dreamt like crazy last nite. All these awkward and pressure filled things in my life were in front of me. I guess thats why I have no pain in my sleep, it all comes out at night.
I hope my experience helps you lidge. I wish I could say that I'm 100%, which I'm not yet. But when I look back at my life this year, I've gone from journaling 12 pages a day, listening to the Sarno CD to and fro work for 4 mos, reading HBP,MBP at every red light in the car, not being able to enjoy anything else at all, horrible BP, horrible structural thoughts, chronic fatigue: to now I'm gonna take my boys to the driving range and putt putt, I can listen to music again, and enjoy TV again for the first time in a long time. I'm only journaling 2 or so pages a day now, and they really don't include writing about my pain like they once did. Not because I forced it out of me, but because it seemed to emerge this way.
I still get flare ups, and fear, like last nite, and 4 days of dizzyness last week, that I was able to tell myself it would be short lived and it did go away. Oh yeah, prostatitis the week b4 that I waited out. I kept a "symptom of the week chart"  in my journal, which has helped.
Several times I felt I turned a corner and was getting better only to question myself after flaring up and panicking. But in the long term I can see it has gotten better.
I'm w/ ya lidge.  |
| lidge |
Posted - 10/28/2007 : 09:15:58
John-
I journal and surround myself with Sarnos books. I have read them cover to cover and keep referring back to it for support. I come on this board rather than "googling" my symptoms. And you know, I am
going to a TMS doc.
Yes, people have it worse- I do try to remind myself. But truly to live life like this is a waste. Life really is too short to be disabled by this.
It really is the pain that gets to me- I had a day here and there where the pain was not as bad and I really didn't attend to it- I was able to do few things around the house etc. I try to hold on to those days as "proof of TMS".
Yes John I do imagine a pain free life. It really gets to you waking up in horrid pain- it makes no sense. I can't argue with anything you have said. I have to do better. I can't afford to let my brain ruin my life. |
| JohnD |
Posted - 10/28/2007 : 08:45:30
Did you make a real effort to try some of the things that people recommended? Most of the recommendations made on this board aren't something you try once and then if it doesn't work you go read a book about possible physical causes of pain. The things that the veterans here recommend are lifestyle changes in the way you relate to your pain. These are every minute of the day changes. If you truly give these things a try you will find the answer for yourself. You won't need to read books about theories of pain, you will just know your body better and be able to figure it out for yourself. Many of the veterans here have had real injuries at one time or another, and are able to know that it wasn't TMS, get correct treatment and move forward with life. But the people who are able to do that have earned that, it came from putting in the work day after day and getting to know themselves and their bodies better.
What is so bad about being in pain? I mean yeah it hurts but there are worse things in this life. Alot of people are in all types of pain all the time. I'd rather be in pain than be a child born in the middle of a war and have that be the only thing you know in this world. What about having your leg and arm blown off by a bomb when you aren't even old enough to read. Now that is an extreme hardship. TMS or another form of bodily pain isn't anywhere near that. Its only so bad because our minds have already decided how the pain is going to constantly affect us. But that is just a thought, its not reality. Unless you played 12 years in the NFL as a running back and had your body banged on week in and week out by 300 lb linemen, then I highly doubt your case will turn into a chronic issue.....the percentages are on your side on this one my friend. Can you even let yourself imagine a pain free life?
Is it really the pain that hurts so bad or the fact that pain affects your life and your future so much that you just can't take it anymore?
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| lidge |
Posted - 10/28/2007 : 08:26:11
Thank you for the good advice. I had thought about seeing Sarno but
assumed, perhaps wrongly, that he would have a long wait and be super expensive. Plus much easier not to go to NYC the way I feel. But yes,
I would love for someone to tell me that this 100% TMS. While my neck may or may not be, I am utterly baffled about my back if it is not TMS. If its deconditioning, I can't imagine the pain would waken me from sleep (last night too,ugh!). I have had MRIs of my lumbar spine and sacroiliac area. Other than a central herniated disc at L4-L4 there is nothing like in the cervical area.
Yesterday, just walked around a store for maybe 10 minutes and had to
go back to the car. I start to feel a sort of low grade panic-
what in the world can this be? Why would it not be going away?
Then, even in sleep the pain wakes me up. Of course you can't help but think they are missing something.
Re the neck- I was reading a book by a surgeon in which he stated that unlike a herniated disc, an osteophyte never recedes. So I assume that the neck pain will never go away. I can't help but think that this bizarre back pain is a distraction from the neck pain. A form of TMS at least.
Has anyone seen Sarno that has osteophyte? Does he think it almost never causes pain?
I'm sorry for whining but I'm tired, tired, tired. I want to live my life in peace and pain-free. I am going to see an endocrinologist to discuss my bone density and vitamin D levels - this may be playing a part. I don't want to spend another day of my life like this. I will try harder to not let the fear overtake me.
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| stanfr |
Posted - 10/27/2007 : 23:27:53
Lidge, it really sounds like you need some reassurance from a TMS doc and that's how you should proceed. Try to relax until then. When i first figured out i had TMS 10+ yrs ago it took Sarno himself to get me to overcome my doubts. He mocked my MRIs and said he had seen much much worse. I really needed to hear that. The tone im getting from your posts is that you know in your gut that that is the problem, and im not sure what you are doing to treat it as TMS, but it wouldnt hurt to start if you haven't already. For example, you say several times that you "cant help" but wonder/doubt etc. Au contraire--whenever the slightest doubt appears, you can verbally denounce it, again and again and again. Say it to yourself, out loud, and in writing. The more you do, the more it will replace that nagging voice. I think you will be pleasnatly surprised by what you hear from someone trained in the diagnosis. |
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