| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| lidge |
Posted - 10/13/2007 : 18:08:07
Question for the experts here-
If one wants desperately to have a TMS doctor diagnose the ailment as TMS, AND HE DOESN"T, what devastation might this wreak on the person's already fragile psyche- especially if that person has given up on the medical establishment? Just as a person must be ready to accept TMS, presumably one has to be just as ready to hear the opposite.
Of course I am referring to myself
P.S. Has anyone been to a trained TMS doctor and been told that most if not all their pain, syndromes are truly physical? |
| 18 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| lidge |
Posted - 10/17/2007 : 13:58:55
Shawn-
I've had a lifelong aversion to doctors and couldn't agree with you more. They are, for the most part, businessmen with medical degrees. Perhaps having been forced to seek help from those I implicitly mistrust, I have created yet more inner conflict, rage etc.
I've known this for some time, yet when life becomes intolerable and you know no other way, you go.
I understand your response about EFT on the other thread, but for those of us who really are struggling to get through the day, I think it is fair to look to anything that may help us. EFT, while perhaps being a placebo, directs you away from traditional medical thinking regarding physical causes and that makes it at least a preferred placebo.
Some of us aren't lucky enough to get better just from the books.
Maybe we are part of that 20% Sarno speaks of. But even Sarno says,
if heroin were legal he would prescribe it!
Armchair-
Thanks as always for the encouragement. I read an interview on Medscape with Sarno in which he says the "nerve" symptoms are the most frightening. So true for me. Today has been the worst despite
"doing the work". The nerve pain is almost surreal. I'm trying hard to think of it as my unconscious knowing what strings to pull and then pulling even harder. Wonder if that is typical -that it gets
worse before it gets better -can't recall offhand if Sarno addressed that. Would love to hear if anyone else experienced that.
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| shawnsmith |
Posted - 10/17/2007 : 12:12:03
quote:
Originally posted by lidge
I'm fighting the urge to call back the useless doctors and tell them
their shots didn't work, now what etc. But that is what I have been doing and it hasn't worked.
Trust me Lidge, these crackpots already know the shots don't work, but they have to give you something and hope you will go away and not come back.
Lidge, until you come the realization that most of what the multi trillion dollar medical establishment tells you is bull-sh---t, then you will continue to fall for their lies. There are only a handful of doctors that go into the medicine to help alleviate suffering. Instead, they enter the profession to line their pockets. One of the biggest shams in history is the crackpots who inhabit the pain management industry and the shamans that are called Lie- ro- practors.
Truth must be valued over consensual agreement. Objectivity and intellectual honesty must always take precedence over consensus no matter how unpopular it may be. Democracy killed Socrates, and democracy - within the medical establishment - is killing people on a daily basis.
A pox on them all..........Sarno rules, all else are fools........
*******
Sarno-ize it!
Read chapter 4 of Dr. Sarno's "The Divided Mind." Also chapers 3, 4 and 5 in Dr. Scott Brady's "Pain Free For Life" are very important. |
| armchairlinguist |
Posted - 10/17/2007 : 11:23:26
lidge, sounds like a good hypnotherapist! :-)
Yes, it takes time for the knowledge to penetrate the unconscious. It is recommended to read and reread TMS material for 15-30 minutes a day repeatedly to get the message through.
Here's one way to think about your neck: you got a shot, so either you believed the pain shouldn't come back, or it couldn't physically come back -- but your back got worse, so overall the shot did nothing. This is a very clear example of what Sarno calls the symptom imperative. The symptoms are serving a deeper need. Treating them doesn't resolve the overall problem, it just changes them. Think of it this way: if you didn't have TMS, why would you back get worse when you got a shot in your neck?!
quote:
I have asked myself, why is everything I get "So BAD" so impervious to what normally heals other people.
I asked myself this too -- why did I get RSI when so many people don't? The answer was simple. It was coming from something other than my physical behavior.
--
It's not 100% belief that's required, but 100% commitment. |
| lidge |
Posted - 10/16/2007 : 11:35:35
Thanks for the replies-
I am choosing to believe this is TMS though I'm struggling horribly.
For a year or more, I have had one thing after another go wrong, and each time, it was seemingly endless. I have asked myself, why is everything I get "So BAD" so impervious to what normally heals other people.
I feel physically worse day after day- does this make sense?
I have discarded the herniated disc as the pain generator in my back-
and even if it was- why am I getting worse? Why am I not healing?
When I asked the physiatrist recently, can pain from a herniated disc last thing long (4-5 months) she said - oh yes I've seen someone have it for five years. Well, did I need to hear that ? Did it serve me?
I'm fighting the urge to call back the useless doctors and tell them
their shots didn't work, now what etc. But that is what I have been doing and it hasn't worked.
Lamburtus- the neck is better for the moment and I live in dread of the return. Was it the shot? I don't know, I do know that as the neck got better, the back "felt" worse. The intensity of the pain
that is pouring down my legs has worsened, as if to convince me it is sciatica.
But the pain in my legs is not in the back of my legs- so as Sarno states -does it make sense?
I absolutely agree with Sarno that the medical establishment is perpetuating a pain epidemic through ignorance.
I feel like I know all these things now on a conscious level, the trick is to get it down to the unconscious somehow. I had mentioned that I was thinking of adding hypnotherapy and the hypnotist told me to go to Sarno!
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| shawnsmith |
Posted - 10/15/2007 : 18:59:47
quote:
Originally posted by Wilf
I stopped all treatments and started to apply the program. In the summer of 2002, I began to experience many other pains throughout my body, and severe swelling in my hands and feet. I thought it was TMS getting worse before it gets better, but that proved to be wrong. It turned out I had Polymyalgia Rheumatica (PMR). I was successfully treated with prednisone.
Dr. Sarno states over and over again that if new pains develop they should be checked out by one's regular physician to make sure noting is wrong. In your case there was indeed a problem and you found the treatment necessary for recovery. But this is not Lidge's problem here.
*******
Sarno-ize it!
Read chapter 4 of Dr. Sarno's "The Divided Mind." Also chapers 3, 4 and 5 in Dr. Scott Brady's "Pain Free For Life" are very important. |
| JohnD |
Posted - 10/15/2007 : 18:32:51
Lidge,
I give you credit for taking the next step to see a TMS doc.
Can I give you a suggestion in doing how you approach the TMS work?
Treat yourself as if you would treat a child, or pet that is in pain......give yourself some compassion -- first off you are in alot of pain and whether it is TMS pain or not it is still very stressful to be in pain! You deserve a break now and then from all the worry and fright over the pain. You have taken some major steps in the right directions and things will begin to unfold for you as you reach out for more support. |
| lidge |
Posted - 10/15/2007 : 15:11:16
Thanks for the support armchair.
BTW- I phoned a hypnotist today to get information. When I told him why I wanted to come in he recommended Sarno! He said he healed himself of back pain just after reading the book.
I must say while it makes me feel good, It makes me feel down at the same time. I feel as if the pain is playing me and try as I might it is overwhelming.
Does your brain know what type of pain would torment you the most?
For me, aching and throbbing would be a blessing as opposed to the
burning radiating fire like pain. Its so "foreign" and scary.
Does pain in the neck, pain in the back/butt or nerve pain as in "you've got a lot of nerve" have some significance- maybe this was said to us and remains in the unconscious? I"m sure all of the above were said to me but boy this is too much. I |
| armchairlinguist |
Posted - 10/15/2007 : 12:51:26
lidge, what is important is not to change the nervous system or anything directly, but to acknowledge that the source of the pain is emotional, and so the pain is harmless. This takes away the fear. Refocusing thoughts on the psychological (by journaling, e.g.) defeats the strategy that the brain is trying. Combined with simple messages to increase bloodflow (talking to the brain) it reverses the pain process.
This is just a simple outline, but the essence of TMS is simple. I sense from your post that you're beginning to see how some of your pain patterns fit with TMS. That is a great start.
Sarno's theory about nerve impingement is, I believe, that nerve impingement by a disc herniation should not cause pain, because the nerve is either functioning or numb. Get that image of your painful nerve out of your head. :-)
Some people have had success with hypnotherapy, I think, but it's not too likely that you need it to see some improvement. Talking to your brain is the place to start, and all you need for that is a place where other people can't hear you talking...
--
It's not 100% belief that's required, but 100% commitment. |
| lidge |
Posted - 10/15/2007 : 11:15:36
Thanks all- yes I will be taking that step of seeing TMS dr.
If nothing else, I need to start countering the onslaught of
negative things I have beeen told the last year or two.
What is clearly so suspicious is that this started with neck problems and then the back pain/leg pain stiffness thing arrived and almost
"replaced the neck pain." It has gotten to the point where so many things are in pain that its like wack a mole. This clearly sounds like TMS.
I feel this horrid burning low back pain and my whole lower body feels stiff as if I weighed 1000 lbs. Of course in my mind, I just have visualized that this is the herniated disc, that is pressing on a nerve, and that is why it feels so severe. But it is interesting to me that when I failed to improve with either epidural or trigger point shot that I was "given up on ". The dr. who gave me the trigger point handed me a printout from WebMd saying only 3% of herniated disc actually press on a nerve. Am I that unlucky? Is there a reason this info is not handed to you early in the process?
I'm trying to wrap my mind around Sarno's theory of oxygen deprivation and nerve pain. I have to look back - was he saying that
except in rare cases, the nerve becomes merely "irritated"?
Was he saying that unless it is numb, it can not be damaged?
Everything I read in Sarno's books makes sense. He seems to be saying that exercise is not needed to heal insofar as there are many sedentary people with no pain. I have wondered whether the almost complete lack of exercise over 5 months has increased the intensity of the pain - but if I am reading Sarno right, exercise has nothing to do with it.
Is it that one must calm down the autonmic nervous system by insight etc. and that alone will restore oxygen and circulation to the affected parts?
Interestingly, I have had Raynauds for years, it never bothered me to the degree that it limited me. In my dr. merry-go-round- one dr. after another noted how purple I turn in their office (feet and hands). I went to vascular dr. who said its Raynauds, that I could
"lose a toe" and told me to take a medicine (I passed).
Its clear to me that my autonomic system has "ALWAYS" been in overdrive- and now it been compounded by the endless stress of pain.
I recall reading that people can be taught to warm their hands mentally. Perhaps just another take on TMS.
I do find it interesting that Sarno in MOBP says he would use heroin if it was available! Does he think anti-anxiety drugs are counter-productive?
I keep journaling, reading and hoping for the slightest bit of improvement. Wondering if hypnotherapy would help get the message to
the unconscious - or is that clearl a no=no? |
| AnthonEE |
Posted - 10/15/2007 : 09:46:36
Hi Lidge
You are asking a great question, and I offer these comments based on what I have learned. Hopefully it will help you to brace yourself and remain optimistic in case you find out it is not TMS.
First, you need to see a TMS doctor.
Second, you need to put your trust in his or her findings. If they find it is not TMS, then you are back to square one. If they find it is TMS, then you still need to take that leap of trust because those findings will almost certainly be in direct conflict with the findings of conventional medicine.
OK, so suppose it is TMS and you've accepted it as such. Then hurray, the path is clear.
Alternatively suppose, to your question, that it is not TMS. Then you will need to wade through the conflicting recommendations of more conventional medicine.
And here is the point of my posting... supposing it is not TMS, then you need to stay optimistic and remember there is great controversy within conventional medicine about the efficacy of back/neck surgery. I went to the New England Baptist Hospital spine center after a thoracic back injury, and even they, a premier orthopedic spine center on the east coast, had posted in their waiting room several articles discussing the questionable and controversial efficacy of surgery in so many patients.
Of course there are always exceptions, and some patients will require surgery for this reason or that. But in so many cases it is very controversial, even when the reason for the pain is caused by some real physical problem. And countless people have opted to avoid the surgery, and statistically they do just as well or even better than those that elect for the invasive surgery. These are facts that are available to you, today, from studies done within conventional medicine. You just need to dig. Here's an example of the controversy you will find:
quote:
We asked: Nikki Stone, America's first female aerial skiing Olympic champion. Her pick: Dr. James Rainville, chief of spine physiatry, New England Baptist Hospital Bone and Joint Institute, Boston, 617-754-5246. After being told by 10 doctors that she would never jump again because of a debilitating back injury, Stone, who is from Westborough, found a miracle in Rainville. "He understands that athletes are willing to push themselves and take risks," she says. After four months of physical therapy supervised by Rainville, Stone was back on the slopes and won the gold at the Olympic Winter Games in Nagano, Japan, in 1998.
OK, so we don't know if Nikki Stone just had TMS. But from the sound of "debilitating back injury" it sounds like there was a solid physical basis for it. And considering 10 doctors then gave her one story, and Rainville gave her another, it's quite possible you too will find out that you just cannot buy into the establishment so quickly. So even if you find (from your TMS doctor) that you do not have TMS, hope is far from lost. Just because you have been deemed a "candidate" for fusion surgery by certain doctors, certain other (good) doctors will likely disagree! Even within the scope of conventional medicine. I know it's easy for me to say because I'm not walking in your shoes, but do try not to panic. Find a doctor that you feel good about and trust. And best luck!
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| vikki |
Posted - 10/14/2007 : 16:50:18
I know how you feel. Learning about TMS, for me, was the most liberating experience ever. It was like, "Hey, I don't need to take this anymore! I can get my life back!" So yes, hearing from a TMS doctor that it isn't TMS can be devastating if you are hoping it is. I don't know of anyone who was told by a TMS doctor that it was physical -- but there may be such people. Why not just go see the TMS doctor? Get it over with. If they tell you it's physical, then you're no worse off than before you learned about TMS. If they tell you it's TMS, then great news. Take care. |
| kelvin |
Posted - 10/14/2007 : 14:00:59
quote:
Originally posted by lidge
...I have even been told that fusion is warranted for my neck.
lidge,
If any doctor, TMS trained or otherwise, tells you that fusion is a viable option you need to find another doctor. There is too much evidence that fusion surgery is no more successful than doing nothing at all. I had fusion on my low back, my wife had fusion on her neck and low back (all before we knew about TMS).
All we got was the temporary placebo effect that Dr. Sarno talks about. We both found relief only after applying the treatment plan in The Divided Mind.
While there may be a physical cause to your pain and seeing a doctor to rule out serious causes like cancer or tumors is always a wise thing to do, the most likely cause is TMS.
Kelvin
My favorite TMS files and links http://www.etex.net/kelving (may not work with FireFox browser) |
| Wilf |
Posted - 10/14/2007 : 13:24:56
About Jan 2002, my daughter introduced me to Sarno's book. MBP. I became convinced that the back and neck pain I had suffered for 40 years was TMS. I stopped all treatments and started to apply the program. In the summer of 2002, I began to experience many other pains throughout my body, and severe swelling in my hands and feet. I thought it was TMS getting worse before it gets better, but that proved to be wrong. It turned out I had Polymyalgia Rheumatica (PMR). I was successfully treated with prednisone. This disorder is well-documented in Google. I wrote a private e-mail to Dr Ziggles and he confirmed that PMR is not TMS.
The difficulty I had at the beginning was distinguishing between what was PMR pain and what was TMS pain. Prednisone brought about almost instant relief of the PMR symptoms, and I was on that medication for almost 4 years. I was told when I was diagnosed that PMR would leave the body in 1 to 4 years. That is exactly what happened. My blood tests are now normal.
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| JohnD |
Posted - 10/14/2007 : 11:49:37
Lidge,
Are you going to see a TMS doc? I think it would be a good idea for you. |
| lidge |
Posted - 10/14/2007 : 11:18:50
Yes I have read Sarno's books. I am re-reading them.
Listening to his CD as well as Schechter's tape and workbook.
Much of it fits me. Yet unlike you Shawn, I have had numerous MRIS etc which did reveal things I have been told are causing the pain. I have even been told that fusion is warranted for my neck.
Yet despite the findings of the cervical spine MRI, I am struggling
to determine whether the neck pain is primarily or in part TMS.
If "nothing was found" in my case, I would consider TMS a 100% slam dunk diagnosis and proceed as you have, without seeing a TMS doctor.
Sarno's theory about repressed anger certainly squares with some of the responses received by my rather benign questions.
That being said, I still would like to hear from anyone that has been to a TMS doctor regarding my initial question.
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| shawnsmith |
Posted - 10/14/2007 : 10:06:53
A good many of us on this board have never seen a TMS doctor. I for one I am not in the least interested in seeing one either because Dr. Sarno has provided me all the tools and information necessary to detect my TMS and I am convinced. Have you actually read any of his books? I personally have had numerous medical tests and nothing was found.
Dr. Sarno writes in Healing Back Pain:
"While it is wise to rule out so-called organic disorders, the diagnosis of psychophysiologic conditions should be made positively and not by exclusion. A diagnosis by exclusion is not a diagnosis. It says, “I don’t know what this is and therefore it’s probably tension induced.” Rather the diagnostician should say, “Now that I have eliminated the possibility that there is a tumor or cancer I can proceed with confidence since this physical condition I am looking at has all the signs and symptoms of an emotionally induced process.” That is rarely done, however, for most practicing physicians either do not physicians either do not recognize the disorder as psychophysiologic, or if they do, treat it symptomatically as though it were organic."
*******
Sarno-ize it!
Read chapter 4 of Dr. Sarno's "The Divided Mind." Also chapers 3, 4 and 5 in Dr. Scott Brady's "Pain Free For Life" are very important. |
| lidge |
Posted - 10/14/2007 : 08:54:21
My use of the term expert truly was meant as complimentary- your use of the phrase "1st off" sounds a bit childish- perhaps you misconstrued -
In any case, thank you for addressing part of my question but I leave the more important first question out there for consideration -
Rare, though it may be, if one is not "ready" to accept that they
are part of that small group in which a serious physical problem is causing their physical pain, would going to a TMS therapist be advised?
|
| JohnD |
Posted - 10/14/2007 : 04:08:35
1st off -- none of us here are "experts", we just have some personal experience with getting better using TMS theory
As far as someone not having TMS ---this rarely happens. sometimes people have a certain issue that isn't TMS, but its usually not all encompassing as it seems you are afraid of. |
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