| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| lidge |
Posted - 10/06/2007 : 16:08:43
Can there be variations of TMS mixed with true pain causing pathology?
For example, could one have pain coming from herniated discs or whatever in the neck and or back that is so severe that one's mind cannot handle the "seriousness" of the diagnosis given by doctors, so that ones' mind adds on pain in another location of your body to distract you? Does that necessarily mean that the first problem was TMS in every case?
In the 20/20 video, you see Sarno doing physical exam to "rule out"
true illness. How can that be done so easily as there are such things as tumors, cysts etc. that no doctor could possibly see upon exam.
It is just a question of these things being so rare that Sarno is willing to assume that 99% of pain is truly benign (TMS)? Hope this was not too convoluted a question. Trying desperately to believe! |
| 20 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| mamaboulet |
Posted - 10/08/2007 : 15:49:35
quote:
Originally posted by JohnD
It doesn't have to be an all or none process at first. You can investigate both areas and see which one your experiences validate. Just make sure to do some very objective analysis to help you decide, don't let your fear or other emotions run the show.
this is what I'm trying to get at. Yes, TMS work is more effective the more you give up on the physical side and focus on the psychological side. But it seems like you still haven't finished the road down the physical path. My point is that if you are still focusing on the physical and still need to exhaust that avenue, don't let that stop you from doing the psychological stuff too. Start looking into your pressures and such, and you may find more to convince yourself to follow that road. Like I said, can't hurt, may help. |
| JohnD |
Posted - 10/08/2007 : 15:18:45
It doesn't have to be an all or none process at first. You can investigate both areas and see which one your experiences validate. Just make sure to do some very objective analysis to help you decide, don't let your fear or other emotions run the show. |
| lidge |
Posted - 10/08/2007 : 13:43:56
use that part of you that does think TMS is involved to get busy on the psychological side while the skeptical you goes off for some more MRIs.
I appreciate all the responses here. Mamaboulet- your quote above does get to the crux of my question. I was under the impression
(perhaps wrongly) that one must totally ABANDON any notion that your pain has a physical cause and therefore cease the physical investigations. Given that the doctors keep sending me for more and more MRIs etc, I wanted to know whether you have to completely get off that merry go round before "doing the TMS work". Your answer does address that - but my sense is that would further divide an already "divided mind". Having half of you go off looking into the physical reason for the pain while the other does TMS. If you can do both, hurray- because I've had it.
Another MRI this morning. When I saw the report from the MRI done on my SI joint friday I completely exploded internally. Why? Because
despite some mild degenerative things the radiologist concentrated on
pelvic cysts and the need for yet ANOTHER MRI to investigate these.
I did let out some of this anger on the staff, it is just too much already.
Shawn- thank you for your email etc. The unconscious mind must be one smart bugger - it led me to discover a childhood disease I have no conscious memory of! Neither does anyone in my family.
Also a severely degenerated neck that is eligible for fusion surgery-
How nice of it to let me know perhaps 40 years after the fact.
I'm still learning folks so forgive me if I'm focused on the physical.
The burning pain in my back has brought me to a place I never dreamed I could be. It is beyond any pain I have ever had. Is this my unconscious kicking me in the back? I hope so. But of course those of you who have tried everything with no success realize that
skepticism becomes even more entrenched.
I have read the books and have mailed for others related to this subject. Emailed Dr. Schechter but not heard from him. Will make some calls to other TMS docs.
Every time I go to doctors, I look at others and perceive that they are not in the same degree of pain that I am. I wonder why the pills don't work, the epidural (well sort of helped a bit) etc. If I ask
alot of questions, its because I want to make sure I have landed in the right place. My mind and body cannot take any more disappointments at the moment.
Many thanks for all your thoughtful and helpful replies.
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| mamaboulet |
Posted - 10/08/2007 : 08:11:46
quote:
Originally posted by Littlebird
Mamaboulet, I like your example of the math students. One of my perfectionistic issues is wanting to see and understand all parts of a thing before I can start to work with it, when so often it's just not possible to see and understand it all first, and not reasonable for me to think I should. I know part of the reason I tend to feel this way is that I developed the attitude in early adulthood that I needed to always be productive and therefore I often feel that I have to make the "right" decision so that I don't "waste" time on something that isn't right or don't waste time doing something the "wrong" way and having to do it over again. So I'm going to print out your comment and stick it where I can see it--like on the front of my journal! Thanks for sharing the thought. It fits me well.
I have found that my tendency to see small details and patterns instead of big picture concepts works both for and against me. I usually avoid the big-picture-immobility syndrome and can even help other people spot it in themselves, but I also miss important big picture clues that could save me trouble, heartache,life dead ends, etc. But KNOWING that big picture thinking doesn't come naturally to me helps me work at it. Being able to do both gives us better life support. |
| shawnsmith |
Posted - 10/08/2007 : 07:23:09
From Chapter 9 of Dr. Sarno's MindBody Prescription
The Principle of Simultaneity
TMS symptoms often begin in association with a known structural abnormality—for example, back and leg pain in someone whose CT scan or MRI demonstrates a herniated disc in roughly the right location to explain the symptoms. In these cases the speed with which the person becomes free of pain tells us that the disc herniation was not responsible for the pain.
The presence of a disc abnormality is a stumbling block to many patients who are not aware that this is a demonstration of the cleverness and ingenuity of the mind when it wishes to create a physical distraction. The mind is aware of everything that goes on in the body, including the site of herniated discs, meniscus tears in the knee joints, and tears of the rotator cuff at the shoulder. It may sound fanciful, but experience makes it clear that the brain will initiate TMS pain where where a structural abnormality exists, the better to impress you and more firmly keep your attention on your body, just as it will induce pain at the site of an old injury.
The tendency to attribute the pain to a structural abnormality is irresistible and in some instances may be legitimate, but in most cases it clearly is not; TMS is usually the true cause of the pain. A doctor familiar with TMS can make the distinction.
Fortunately, new studies are making it easier to convince patients that structural abnormalities are widespread and seldom painful. One of the most impressive appeared in the New England Journal of Medicine in July 1994. A group of research workers from the Hoag Memorial Hospital of Newport Beach, California, and the Cleveland Clinic reported finding lumbar disc bulges and protrusions on MRI in sixty-four of ninety-eight men and women who had never had back pain. This is only one of the more recent of many studies through the years documenting that structural abnormalities do not cause back pain. Despite this, almost all physicians and other practitioners continue to attribute pain to structural abnormalities.
*******
Sarno-ize it!
Read chapter 4 of Dr. Sarno's "The Divided Mind." Also chapers 3, 4 and 5 in Dr. Scott Brady's "Pain Free For Life" are very important. |
| Littlebird |
Posted - 10/08/2007 : 00:49:33
Mamaboulet, I like your example of the math students. One of my perfectionistic issues is wanting to see and understand all parts of a thing before I can start to work with it, when so often it's just not possible to see and understand it all first, and not reasonable for me to think I should. I know part of the reason I tend to feel this way is that I developed the attitude in early adulthood that I needed to always be productive and therefore I often feel that I have to make the "right" decision so that I don't "waste" time on something that isn't right or don't waste time doing something the "wrong" way and having to do it over again. So I'm going to print out your comment and stick it where I can see it--like on the front of my journal! Thanks for sharing the thought. It fits me well. |
| mamaboulet |
Posted - 10/07/2007 : 19:59:40
Look, I figure that most people who come here seeking support, answers, advice, a place to vent, or whatever, have read/heard about enough TMS information to have a suspicion that at least some of their pain or other symptoms may be TMS or equivalent, and many recognize themselves in one or more of the personality profiles if they have read them. The fact that you are wondering if you have both TMS and something physical means that something about TMS must resonate with you. I'm just saying use that part of you that does think TMS is involved to get busy on the psychological side while the skeptical you goes off for some more MRIs. |
| mamaboulet |
Posted - 10/07/2007 : 19:41:29
He also stresses over and over that an MRI showing "abnormal" spine is not indicative that the abnormality is the source of pain. I think he mentions three or so things that need to be ruled out: cancer, fracture, and something else. That's what he means by ruling out physical causes. He puts the degenerative/abnormality of spine stuff on the TMS side of the equation. That's what I mean by the MRI trap. Sarno specifically says that the kinds of spine abnormalities that show up on MRIs do not have evidence support for them being the source of most back pain.
You have to decide, given evidence to the contrary in many many cases, whether you will accept a physical or psychological basis for your pain. We don't have access to your MRIs, nor are we doctors, so we don't have the information or knowledge to "convince" you one way or another.
Like I said, you seem to be caught in a "is it? isn't it? is it? isn't it?" loop. The kind of advice that people here can give you (and have) is to do something on the psychological side. Addressing your anger won't hurt your back if it has a physical problem, but not addressing your anger certainly will make your back hurt if your problem is psychological. |
| lidge |
Posted - 10/07/2007 : 18:15:51
Mamaboulet- your response brings to mind that old corny joke-
Patient: It hurts when I do this.
Doctor: Then don't do that.
"Stop Obsessing" Excellent advice. But no more helpful than the
"get over it" you mention as advice given to you in one of your posts in another thread. I appreciate it as much as you do.
I did not fall into the MRI trap, I have been pushed into it over and over by doctor after doctor who order them. This in an effort to do as Sarno suggests, rule out non-TMS causes of pain.
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| mamaboulet |
Posted - 10/07/2007 : 15:49:37
lidge, you remind me of geology students the first time they try to map. They will stand in one place and wonder why they can't figure out the geology. I say walk until you see something change and then map the change. Don't stand still. You are going in circles. You have fallen into the MRI trap. We don't know if you have something physical causing some of your pain, but from everything you've said, you have at least SOME TMS issues going on. Why try to figure out which is which or if some is all or all is some or who is who? Just start the psychological process of switching from obsessing over physical symptoms to facing your emotional conflicts.
Here's another example, this time from math students. Many math students won't work through the steps of a problem because they don't understand the concept, or "big picture." I tell them forget the big picture. Just go through the steps until you regularly start getting the correct answer (in other words, "do the work")and eventually your mind will free up enough thinking neurons to start absorbing the overriding concept.
So start making lists, journaling, walking, switching to psychological whenever you start to obsess on the physical pain, etc, etc, etc.
STOP OBSESSING. |
| lidge |
Posted - 10/07/2007 : 12:37:54
Thanks Mizlori- I can't fathom how Sarno could write in his book that one should get the psychosomatic diagnosis from a physician in order to accept it. He writes profusely about the broken medical system actually causing the TMS epidemic. Were this to be necessary, seems to me there would be virtually none who could accept TMS. Is he writing that just to cover himself? That line really threw me. Is he just referring to a group of physicians he works with at his institute? If there is any pathology at all on MRIs etc it is a rare doctor to attribute the pain to TMS- if nothing else they would not risk the liability.
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| mizlorinj |
Posted - 10/07/2007 : 12:00:35
Dr. Sarno give statistics from years of patients' studies. Yes, I, like most here I'm sure, thought I could possibly be the exception and he'd see that from my xrays and MRI (which I had before I knew of Sarno). Though truthfully, I did realize the personality explanation for TMS fit me well.
Well, I was not the exception; I was in with the masses who have TMS. The large herniated disc was NOT the cause of my butt pain--not even where l5S1 is. Was quite relieved surgery could be ruled out and I'd write and write and write about my feelings. So while we all think we're an exception, chances are better that we're not. We're the tms or its equivalent sufferer.
Read and read Dr. Sarno's books. Let it sink in.
I know I could've had surgery, but that would not get to the CAUSE of my problem, and that's what I wanted to get to. Why treat the symptom. Get to the root. Took time, but I did it and am pain-free.
Keep in mind lidge, Dr. sarno's study of 100 or so people who got xray (or was it MRI) and only a small percentage had a "normal" back. Most had some "normal abnormality" and had NO PAIN!
Someone here posted a link to a book called When The Body Says No by canadian doctor Gabor Mate. More interesting reading on how the emotions cause physical pain and dis-ease. All I seem to be reading lately is proof that emotions (mostly anger) are causing us harm!
And don't bank on finding a doctor who supportive of Dr. Sarno's methods. They are rare. Most want to treat the symptom.
Happy to have found the source of my pain. My own emotions!
Best wishes in your search,
Lori |
| lidge |
Posted - 10/07/2007 : 11:22:19
Thanks for the replies. But still I am torn as to how to sort it out.
Sarno acknowledges that physical problems can co-exist with TMS and one needs to have expert sort it out. He also says in The Divided Mind
"..it is essential for patient acceptance that a psychosomatic
diagnosis is made by physician."
Haven't most found that this is impossible as any abnormality, especially "more than average for your age" stuff will be diagnosed as pain generator?
Sarno also talks about physician and therapist communicating with each other- Is he kidding? I can't get two medical drs to communicate let alone a medical dr. and therapist (which I dont have now anyway). And in any case, it is the nature of the beast that medical dr. will rely on MRIs etc.
Reading that reflux is classic TMS struck me - last year first ER visit and was told I had reflux. Within months the physical pain started in my neck, then ear, sinus and now crushing back (sacral?) pain. The removal of an ear tube left me with awful ear problem that
makes me dizzy. The rage against the doctors builds and builds as
things are found but nothing is "done" to relieve any of the pain I have. In fact, I have been made worse.
If I had a scoreboard I would be piling up points to put me in the TMS camp but for the damn MRIs.
Divided Mind is on the money - but the division is ripping me apart
physically and emotionally. I know what I want to believe but not if its not the truth- did others feel that way? |
| la_kevin |
Posted - 10/07/2007 : 07:11:12
ILIOSACRAL ;)
And yeah, I had TONS of that pain. |
| mamaboulet |
Posted - 10/07/2007 : 07:05:51
I have a hypermoble SI joint. For a long time I thought it was the source of my low back, butt, thigh pain. I can make the joint slide out of place (a little like fingers on a chalk board) just by turning my upper body while my lower body is still. It is rather disconcerting, but I have finally figured out that the pain is not coming from their. That ilowhatever band on my thigh is tender to the touch 365 days a year, whether my SI is out or not. And since I started on the TMS work, I've even noticed that the grinding is WAY down, as is the lumpy pain around the SI joint. Doctors can't explain that. Doesn't fit their "thing." I'm sure if they MRI'd my SI joint they would probably start clucking. Too bad. I figured out a while ago that it just slides around a bit. Big deal. That will probably wear out the joint faster, but hey, until I started the TMS work, I was just sitting on my ass acting as though it were already gone anyway. Now, by going back to walking (number one thing you can do for your SI, way better than sitting at a computer)and getting some muscle tone back, I'm getting my life back and pushing back the worn joint.
Oh, and I thought I had arthitis. I don't, except in a couple of fingers on my dominant hand. The knee I thought was riddled with it is perfect.
And degenerated spines are normal, even really messed up ones. I can't remember which book, but I think it was Dr Brady who had the "spine of a 90 year old." |
| lidge |
Posted - 10/06/2007 : 20:47:26
Thank you all for replies.
I've read some of your stories in the archive and pray I can
find the relief you have. TMS "fits" but this pain has me in tears at the moment. I can see many of my questions have been asked and answered before. Truly appreciate the support here. |
| Stryder |
Posted - 10/06/2007 : 20:36:57
lidge said: I was enraged that no one could help me
So there you have it.
This is only one example of only one time when you detected your rage. Imagine the other thousands of times that you were enraged but your brain repressed the rage. Your inner child is in a blind, screaming rage, and that is the root cause of your pain. Your brain does not want to acknowledge this, so it has given you real pain, in a real location, as a distraction.
As far as the docs go, if you do not have a serious medical condition, then you have nothing to loose by going the Sarno route. The docs will throw MRI's, all kinds of DX explanations, but in the end they will not help you. Why? Because there is no money in it for them. Healing Back Pain is only $14, and you already have it.
You can cure yourself of TMS pain as so many beofre you have done.
Take care, -Stryder |
| la_kevin |
Posted - 10/06/2007 : 20:25:21
"In the 20/20 video, you see Sarno doing physical exam to "rule out"
true illness. How can that be done so easily as there are such things as tumors, cysts etc. that no doctor could possibly see upon exam."
Most people should be seeing a TMS certified Doc AFTER these things have been ruled out lidge.
lidge, please do yourself a favor and try to buy Sarno's books on audio.You can listen to them in bad, on the couch, anywhere. They can answer more than we can in text. And try your best to not concentrate so much on the physical. I know that is really hard,but try to think more psychologically for a few days. You won't lose anything by trying. |
| altherunner |
Posted - 10/06/2007 : 19:39:40
Sarno made this comment - that you continually make deposits in your "rage bank", and never make withdrawls. Perhaps your rage bank is full at 50. Mine was full at about forty, when the symptoms became more intense, and I was put on a wait list for neck surgery,
after the doctor diagnosed my MRI. |
| lidge |
Posted - 10/06/2007 : 19:21:43
Dan-
So much appreciate your words. I have read three of the four books mentioned. Even bought Divided Mind on dvd to drive it home.
You are right about being stuck on the physical. But the pain is so
awful and endless that it is impossible to think of anything else.
When you say rule out anything serious, the problem remains that the doctors I have seen say that the degneration (at least in my neck)
is serious. They ask if I have been in an accident. I haven't.
Never had pain till last year. Is that TMS? Is arthritis TMS?
I'm suspicious that the regular meds for arthritis bring me no relief though.
Yet now, the pain has become so bad in my back that I am once again on a journey to figure it out as I did the neck.
Sarno sees degeneration as a normal abormality as he calls it.
Does that include severe degeneration for one's age?
I will bet my life they will see some sort of bad degeneration of
the SI joint and I'll be on the treadmill again.
When I say the pain moved to a new location - I should say added.
One's brain cannot perceive more than one pain at a time so that
the one that hurts most becomes the issue. The pain in my back since May has remained in one spot. It hasn't moved. It has become more
disabling than the neck pain ever was.
I can pinpoint an emotional trigger a month before - a long story but a problem with my sinus and ear came to a head when the placement of an ear tube proved fruitless. I was enraged that no one could help me. But the pattern is there of one physical symptom after another-
almost like the old Roseann Rosannadanna shtick.
Perhaps I'm looking for other's experience. It would be wonderful to get relatively benign MRI findings - then I would be a slam dunk for TMS I think.
Thanks again for encouraging words.
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