| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| stanfr |
Posted - 09/24/2007 : 23:46:28
http://www.cnn.com/2007/HEALTH/conditions/09/24/back.pain.acupuncture.ap/index.html
Amazing that they even question whether placebo is involved. Of course it's placebo! Duhhh. 44% of the 'fake accupuncture' patients improved, 47% of the 'real' group, and 27% of the control. The 3% difference probably isnt statistically relevant, but even if it is, the 'fake' procedure involved shallower 'needling', so obviously a more invasive procedure would tend to have a more powerful placebo affect. Sigh.... |
| 15 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| stanfr |
Posted - 09/30/2007 : 05:33:11
ACL: was going to pm you but you have no contact, so ill reluctantly resurrect this thread to clarify my last post: i didnt mean to imply it was innapropriate for the researchers to compare the two ('fake' vs real); i meant it was silly for the article to suggest the two procedures were comparable. In other words, sticking someone with needles is not acupunture, its sticking someone with needles. If that helps, fine, but then don't go calling it acupuncture, because that implies that the theory behind acupuncture also has some merit. |
| armchairlinguist |
Posted - 09/27/2007 : 09:12:05
Stanfr, that's an interesting point that the belief about acupuncture could be stronger. That angle hadn't occurred to me, and it certainly would be hard to measure since it would be implicit rather than explicit attitudes that would be involved.
I certainly don't have any proof for the medians idea, but I've had some interesting experiences with treatments that are meant to affect the body's energies, and I don't think it's a scientifically implausible idea that we have an 'energy' of some sort, though obviously the 'chi' thing would have to be a metaphor to some extent. But I think it's entirely possible that there is some kind of energy generated by ongoing chemical reactions, and that doing certain things to the body affects that, whether directly through the body or mediated through the mind.
I don't really understand why you think that it's not appropriate to compare fake acupuncture to real. That's the only way to do proper comparison testing on it, because being stuck with needles is, as the point out, a major experience in itself. If acupuncture does have theoretical value, then the real placement should work better than the fake. I think it's a good comparison, and this study obviously showed that there isn't much difference.
Also, they did compare it to Western treatment success rates, so presumably they also have some data on how much of Western treatment is placebo (ie they indirectly compared it to sugar pill).
I wonder if PT has ever been tested for placebo effect, or how it could be, if it hasn't been...
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Wherever you go, there you are. |
| JohnD |
Posted - 09/27/2007 : 08:08:27
actually your response had nothing to do with anything that I actually was referring to in my last post. It doesn't have anything to do with whether I agree or disagree |
| stanfr |
Posted - 09/27/2007 : 07:43:04
John, as i said i have personally had acupuncture, so i wouldn't criticize anyone else for doing the same! The point of the post was to show my frustration at how something that explicitly makes physical, testable, claims (as opposed to TMS, which fundamentally is based on the psychological aspect) and then completely and utterly fails at proving them (IMO, comparing "fake" acupuncture to "real" acupuincture is ludicrous--you might as well compare sugar pills to acupunture) still gains a measure of credibility. Maybe its because there is way more $ invested in acupuncture.
IMO, TMS will never gain widespread acceptance until more of its proponents stop mocking the scientific method. You're entitled to disagree  |
| JohnD |
Posted - 09/27/2007 : 05:24:13
Stanfr,
Many people here have had positive experiences with acunpuncture and I don't think anyone claimed it is a cure for TMS. Why do you feel the need to explain away Sensei's and other peoples personal experiences? Are you that tied to your opinion that you can't take in any new information....being this closed off mentally could cause you to tighten up and close off physically as well.
The meridians may or may not exist. I wouldn't rely on "scientific" means to make the decision for me though. Many people don't consider TMS because it can't or hasn't been proven in a lab yet and they use the same rationale to close themselves off to TMS theory |
| stanfr |
Posted - 09/27/2007 : 04:30:50
It could be that accupuncture 'worked better' because it is considered 'alternative', and alternative is en vogue among chronic pain sufferors. The more 'mysterious' the treatment is, the more powerful it could be as a placebo for those who have had poor success with 'traditional' methods. Too bad a psychological profile wasn't done on the study group. I've had accupuncture, and it didn't do a thing for me, possibly because my pain was TMS related. One distinction which should be made is that "placebo" does not have a universally accepted definition. While those of us with personal experience with mindbody are inclined to accept the idea that the mind can effect real physical change through placebo, a strict skeptic would argue that placebo only apples to perceived symptoms, mainly pain. So, Sensei's experience could very well be due to the placebo effect, even though the injury was real (since the perception of pain is highly subjective). For example, i can hypnotize myself so i wouldn't feel a needle being pushed into my skin. If you believe that accupuncture works (even if conciously claiming to be a skeptic), then the power of suggestion will be very strong, and will lead to positive results. That, of course, will reinforce your belief. This is similar to the reinforcement that occurs with TMS. I personally do not believe accupuncture 'works' at all, because it presumes a physical basis, qi and meridians, which has zero scientific basis. Of course there are alternative theories that attempt to explain why it works, but i personally think the placebo explanation is a lot more likely! |
| JohnD |
Posted - 09/26/2007 : 09:02:25
Good point ACL! |
| armchairlinguist |
Posted - 09/25/2007 : 18:23:13
Actually, one of the points the article made was that acupuncture did better than a lot of the things you listed that are traditional treatments in Western medicine. That doesn't make it the right treatment, but it does make it somewhat worth not lumping in with the other things.
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Wherever you go, there you are. |
| Jeff4460 |
Posted - 09/25/2007 : 12:38:16
Yes, of course accupuncture works. So does massage, heating pads, motrin, tylenol, stretching exercises, magnets, physical theropy, ultra sound, etc. All of these things will increase the blood flow to the affected area and bring some temporary pain releif. But we TMS'ers all know that these things are not a cure. All of these things do nothing more than treat the symptons (bad medicine). Find the problem...treat the problem! |
| Kristin |
Posted - 09/25/2007 : 12:26:51
I'm certainly not knocking eastern spirituality, but whatever he's into doesn't seem very realistic. But, of course, as he would say it's not about a rational view of "real". I prefer the ideas of Buddhism as a balance to being culturally Christian.
Anything that doesn't encourage questioning and learning is suspect to me! I guess that's what some TMSers are being accused of. I guess I would say, I question and test my idea of TMS everyday and I find out that my way of accepting it helps me in almost every aspect of my life. Modern medicine is a type of religion if you will accept the stream of thought. |
| armchairlinguist |
Posted - 09/25/2007 : 11:38:57
quote:
I showed this guy a Sarno book. He was somewhat dismissive because he is into some sort of eastern spirituality and doesn't seek new information from books. Too bad!
Ha ha. This is what exasperates me about people who get 'into' that kind of thing. Too stupid.
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Wherever you go, there you are. |
| Kristin |
Posted - 09/25/2007 : 09:42:24
ACL, That is exactly what I was thinking. I wonder how much doctors really do believe in mind/body connection but can't let on because of the pharm industry ties. It seems pretty dang obvious!
I wonder if some intelligent person/leader could figure out a way to make mind/body "institutionalized" to the point where we could see much lower health insurance costs because people would start taking responsibility for their own pain and health. I can dream can't I?
I actually do know someone who works in a mind/body hospital. I can't recall the name of it. It might be in Bend, OR. I think they are still pretty much into alternative treatments pretty heavy though. I showed this guy a Sarno book. He was somewhat dismissive because he is into some sort of eastern spirituality and doesn't seek new information from books. Too bad! |
| armchairlinguist |
Posted - 09/25/2007 : 09:10:04
I've had mixed experiences with acupuncture, too. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that more of the effect is psychological than practitioners believe. On the other hand, Chinese medicine isn't as obsessed with separating the mind from the body, and some acupuncture treatments are supposed to have both mental and physical effects, so if people get better because of their own minds, they may not really be that concerned with the distinction.
It seems funny to me that they do tons of studies that show a placebo effect, and yet so many doctors don't seem to believe in the mindbody connection in any other context. What is a placebo effect but evidence that the mind profoundly affects the body?!
I've always wondered if you can really do effective acupuncture comparison studies. It must be pretty hard to figure out how to poke people so that it's theoretically ineffective. I think that's the point that the one guy was making -- unlike a sugar pill, needle pokes definitely do SOMETHING even if they're not done in accordance with Chinese medicine theory.
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Wherever you go, there you are. |
| sensei adam rostocki |
Posted - 09/25/2007 : 07:42:19
Acupuncture can be useful and also can be a placebo depending on the circumstances of the treatment. Sounds like any other treatment, according to TMS theory, (physical therapy, surgery, etc.) right? Not to stray off the topic, but I read a study a few years back talking about electrotherapy (TENS) for back pain, specifically. The control group included patients treated with a fake TENS machine which simulated electric current, but delivered none, it simply vibrated and made some noise. There were nearly identical results between the real TENS and the placebo. This is one treatment I always doubted and after reading this, I was shocked! My own experience with TENS was one of annoyance and a feeling of wasting time after being treated many times (out of pocket expense). I have had a few good experiences with acupuncture, but never much help for my back pain. It has worked well for me for some martial arts injuries (obvious injury which left a mark…not perceived TMS injury). Best, Sensei
CURE-BACK-PAIN(dot)ORG |
| JohnD |
Posted - 09/25/2007 : 07:02:52
I think acupuncture does have some merit, but the effects of it aren't lasting. I've had it done and it does make me feel better overall and is a good pick me up but its not a permanent solition. |
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