| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| mamaboulet |
Posted - 09/01/2007 : 06:30:20
An internet acquaintance of mine was commenting on a news story about parents who had a child with extra toes and fingers so they had them removed. We were discussing childhood trauma associated with being teased about things we couldn't do anything about. Boy, did that suddenly bring back some painful memories. Things like being teased unmercifully for having to wear special shoes. That memory has some definite anger attached to it.
Also, I've been thinking about my father. I have such a bundle of conscious rage toward him that the thought of what might be underneath is a little scary. But reading Sarno I also began to notice, over and over, descriptions of my father. I suddenly realized he has suffered TMS stuff his whole life (he's way more screwed up than me, which brings me some perverse pleasure). He left home at age 17 due to a domineering mother. He lied about his age and joined the Navy. A couple of years later he was forced out with a medical discharge because of his migraine headaches. He actually fell off the conning tower during a dress inspection of his unit's submarine (ouch). He has suffered from migraines his whole life. Took early medical retirement from his career too. And then after he and I stopped talking to each other, I found out that the mere mention of my name would induce an immediate migraine (take that! I have the power!). And I came to the conclusion last year that he has a very narcissistic personality, with an extreme need to be right and in control. Too bad. Maybe if he wasn't such a rigid "I'm right and everybody else's ideas are crap" person, then maybe he would have discovered Sarno and cured himself. |
| 16 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| molomaf |
Posted - 09/06/2007 : 10:30:42
Hi Baseball65-long time.
Reading your message makes me think we may have something in common. I just recently found out that my mother has Narcissistic Personality Disorder. It explains everything that has been unexplainable. I could go into detail as to what this really means but I will refer you to:
http://www.geocities.com/zpg1957/narcissists.htm
The children of NPD mothers or fathers really suffer as they have never really been seen as human beings, only "things" to be used. People with NPD have no empathy. They pretend very well but don't have any feeling for others. The only other personality disorder that has no empathy is a sociopath. There are grades of NPD from mild to full blown but what they have in common is no empathy.
I now understand what I could not explain. And I understand that I am the way I am because I had a mother that did not love me or my siblings. In fact she doesn't even love herself. It is very sad. But I have been able to forgive her and I don't hold any anger towards her now. I know what to expect from her and I am never disappointed with her actions. They now make sense.
I wonder how many others on this forum have parents with NPD.
Can you imagine the kind of anger we must feel when we know inside that we are not genuinely loved by a parent. We pretend that they really do love us somehow because to deny it would be emotionally devastating.
Michele |
| Baseball65 |
Posted - 09/05/2007 : 21:24:34
quote:
Originally posted by la_kevin
From what I get out of TMS work, is that "forgiving and forgetting" may not be the point. The point is just acknowledgment of how you feel. Am I wrong on this?
No... you are spot on according to the 1991 edition of HBP.
However... I have had some interesting experience with this.
My mother was always a source of triggering attacks in me. My Father died whe I was 5, and she moved us to LA, got us settled in to a house and than promptly went touring the world for a decade leaving to be raised by a long series of babysitters, and ultimately, the county of Los Angeles.
I always knew this, and I thought I had 'forgiven' her. The goodist in me thinks it would be cruel to confront her with this now since there is No way she could go back and change it and because she really has never changed. She still tells stories with editorialized endings.
However, when I was in therapy for anger, my shrink said I was waaaay to BBQ'd to only have been neglected. He told me to ask some approachable family members if there was more to the story that what my 5 year old brain can phone in to the 40 year old man.
My brother and I have grown close in adulthood.
He is older than I. I asked him what happened after our Father died. I told him what my shrink said. He was surprised I didn't remember. He said
"Dude... every time you wet your pants or got mud on the floor, Mom used to come UNGLUED on you... she would scream her head off and say you were the worst kid in the world and that she was GOING to put you in an orphanage. She freaked on all of us fairly often, but you being youngest got the brunt of it "
Well...obviously that explained a lot. It ALSO changed the way I felt about my Mom.. it was hard not to be angry with her.
I wrote a 700 page Novel about growing up 'in the system' last winter. When I mentioned it to my Mother she broke down in tears and said "I know I was a horrible parent.... I tried so hard with you marc, but I just couldn't seem to get through to you"
Funny.. she breaks down in tears because I mention I'm recapping something??? Obviously she's already editorialized it in her head (She tried,right?) and made her excuses to herself. Also funny that someone who NEVER EVER cries, has a meltdown because of someone writing something.....I don't think her memory is as foggy as she would have the world believe.
So... what is our relationship like? Well.... I feel sorry for her. She has been mighty instructive in how to NOT be a parent, though part of me also feels profoundly guilty for hating on her, seeing as her Husband died.
I love her, but I don't think I like her... so going back to your original statement, No , I didn't need her to change for me to get better, and I don't have to avoid or force myself in her sphere of influence. However, having done a lot of introspective work to rid myself of TMS I have had to uncover a lot of ugly truths that have changed the way I felt about people,thus changing my desire to be around them or have them in my life.
I think if you read HBP, Sarno mentions some people who did have to change some things externally to recover. I personally have left LA, Quit working in the film business, and have lately begun to wonder if I really ought to stay married.
Once again, the pain comes from repressed stuff that I don't think we ever clearly understand, but we get some pretty good clues from time to time
my .02
BB65 |
| justme |
Posted - 09/05/2007 : 20:40:08
Is the jury really still out on the topic of "staying in an abusive relationship"? Being in an abusive relationship causes "fight or flight symptoms" in the person being abused. A lot of these fight or flight symptoms are TMS. Since we cannot change an abuser's behavior I think each person must choose for themselves what they can change for themselves - for some that is leaving - no judgments should be passed.
Just Me |
| Littlebird |
Posted - 09/01/2007 : 16:43:48
la_kevin, when it comes to treating TMS, the way I understand what I've read is just as you've said, that the point is acknowledging how we feel. Forgiving is not mentioned as a requirement for recovery from TMS. It can have other benefits, if one can genuinely forgive and let go of resentment. But getting rid of the anger is not what Dr. Sarno directs people to do in treating TMS. His focus is on acknowledging we have the anger. |
| la_kevin |
Posted - 09/01/2007 : 15:26:48
From what I get out of TMS work, is that "forgiving and forgetting" may not be the point. The point is just acknowledgment of how you feel. Am I wrong on this? |
| Littlebird |
Posted - 09/01/2007 : 14:11:55
Here's my 2 cents on the issue:
There are lots of therapists who recommend that client's with difficult family members go to limited or no contact. Considering that it's normal to feel some guilt even when someone with whom you've had a good relationship dies, it's highly likely that you're going to feel guilt after the death of someone with whom you've restricted contact. But one way to deal with that guilt is to keep reminding yourself that you would have been delighted to have a relationship with the person if they had made an effort to change their abusive behavior and had shown some genuine consideration for your feelings and your well being. The ball was in their court and they chose to continue the actions that led to them being shut out. And most people who choose to limit contact probably allowed the relative a lot of time to make some effort to keep the relationship intact before shutting them out.
Even if you understand how they got to be such a difficult person, which is often because of some mistreatment they experienced in their past, it doesn't mean you should be obliged to let them continually cause you emotional pain. Forgiveness for past hurts that a relative has caused doesn't have to mean that you let the person back into your life if they're going to keep causing you more pain. It is possible to stop feeling any resentment towards the person over past events while protecting yourself from future events.
But it's an individual choice--some people would rather continue exposing themselves to the pain rather than cut off the relative, and that may assuage some of the guilt they would feel when the relative dies. But there may be some other painful emotion in place of guilt, especially if the relative continued to be hurtful right up to the time they died. Particularly when it's a parent/child relationship, there may be a lot of resentment that the parent never acknowledged how hard the child was trying to be a "good child" and never gave the approval and love the child was hoping would someday come. Once the parent is gone, it can feel like you were totally betrayed, like all your efforts were wasted.
Whatever choices we make ourselves, it's best if we can allow others to make their own choices about whom they will or won't allow in their lives. It may be helpful to them if we point out what we think the possible consequences of their choice will be, in case they haven't considered all the possibilities, but we can't really know for sure what they'll feel. As Mary mentioned, we don't really know for sure what we'll feel; we find out later if our decision was a good one for us.
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| stanfr |
Posted - 09/01/2007 : 13:28:23
quote:
Originally posted by mamaboulet
Pretty hard to tell if real forgiveness happens if you can't talk to the enraged unconscious. It is just as likely to just be another form of swallowing/suppressing anger, which will just bring on more TMS.
Exactly! That's probably why my acceptance hasnt helped much--because clearly my subconcious hasn't 'forgiven and forgotten'. But it's an ongoing process, and really--what is the alternative??
If you can truly dissasociate without the lingering anger, great. But clearly you can't. |
| OUCHTHE PAIN |
Posted - 09/01/2007 : 12:25:20
Finding this whole exchange pretty interesting. Feeling bad about Mama wearing special shoes and being teased. Curious to know what exactly do you do with that memory once it surfaces? Is the resurfacing of it and feeling the pain again enough to resolve it? Does it ever get resolved?
And the whole parent thing - I can certainly relate. Both of mine are gone now. Definitely have some lingering guilt about my dad. I too felt that 'distancing' myself from him was the only way I could survive emotionally. Now that he is gone, I wonder if my decisions were selfish? And I am left to pay for them now with guilt..
I can see both points of view in the arguments stated. I think as someone stated, we have to do what feels right to us at the time. It will only be revealed later if that was the right decision.
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| mamaboulet |
Posted - 09/01/2007 : 12:04:43
Pretty hard to tell if real forgiveness happens if you can't talk to the enraged unconscious. It is just as likely to just be another form of swallowing/suppressing anger, which will just bring on more TMS. |
| mamaboulet |
Posted - 09/01/2007 : 12:02:47
The only "relationship" he would allow, after I did all the damn work reestablishing the connection, was a birthday card exchange, cute email exchange, cup of coffee and small talk at the local restaurant if I was passing through town. Why do I want to have a cup of coffee with a closed off SOB who has never EVER, NOT ONCE IN HIS LIFE, ever said he was wrong about anything, or cruel (he calls cruel "being frank"), or obtuse, or screwed up, or anything except perfect? Toxic is right. He wants total control after 15 years of us not speaking. Well he can shove it.
I did the reconnect so you won't feel guilty thing. Not doing it again. The two of us can never resolve anything, because he will never allow a conversation about it, much less admit that something needs resolving. Thus,I have to deal with my own anger issues anyway, without his input. |
| stanfr |
Posted - 09/01/2007 : 09:53:57
My dreams let me know that the anger i feel toward my father is way deeper than what i feel conciously. I feel i have three choices, either completely dissociate myself from him, continuously engage in confrontation, or forgive and accept. I choose #3. #2 is not good, and #1 just lets the anger fester, as shawn said. I don't think you have to become best pals with your dad in order to "reestablish a relationship", and presumably that is what Shawn is referring to. On the other hand, it hasn't really helped my TMS any, so maybe im all wrong. |
| shawnsmith |
Posted - 09/01/2007 : 09:41:02
You all need to re-establish relations with your fathers asap. If not, you will be crippled with guilt later on in life.
*******
Sarno-ize it!
Read chapter 4 of Dr. Sarno's "The Divided Mind." Also chapers 3, 4 and 5 in Dr. Scott Brady's "Pain Free For Life" are very important. |
| armchairlinguist |
Posted - 09/01/2007 : 09:06:04
Shawnsmith, you have no business telling people that they "NEED TO" resume potentially toxic relationships. You really need to stop acting like you are this board's resident therapist. While we all spend some of the time on the board discussing and analyzing each other's emotions, you do not know more about it than anyone else and your know-it-all attitude is both grating and potentially harmful to vulnerable people.
(mamab, I believe you have good sense and will do what you think is right. I am being more general here.)
--
Wherever you go, there you are. |
| skizzik |
Posted - 09/01/2007 : 08:58:48
quote:
Originally posted by shawnsmith
You need to re-establish a relationship with your father
why? |
| la_kevin |
Posted - 09/01/2007 : 07:42:20
You just described my father. I said goodbye to him 10 years ago because he was just so toxic, and many people felt the same about him. Do you really think a person like that in your life would help?
You have to take care of yourself. |
| mamaboulet |
Posted - 09/01/2007 : 07:35:05
did that (all my doing, none his) and then broke it off again a couple of years later (last year). I dislike him intensely. I also feel incredibly sad for him since I've begun to understand his narcissitic personality and the deep deep conflicts within him. I've tried to forgive him for being a rigid, authoritarian, cold, critical, emotionally cruel father, but I haven't been able to do it. The anger always comes back. His intense need for total control and superiority is simply too unpleasant for me to deal with. |
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