| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Nor |
Posted - 08/23/2007 : 15:32:50
One thing I've learned from reading and posting here is that this forum is good for giving perspective. I need a dose of TMS reality. I posted a few weeks ago about pelvic discomfort that I feared was (of course) a horrible disease. Obsession w/health and symptoms is a major TMS equivalent of mine. Of course I went to the doc and my symptoms are something benign but real - a slightly dropped uterus and bladder. I know this is common and not surprising actually. I fit some of the risk factors: 40's, two vaginal births, years of heavy lifting.
Here's my query. This is the first time one of my obsessions turned out to be something real. I do need to monitor it and do kegel exercises to prevent it from worsening. (My GYN casually mentioned that as it got worse w/age, I could just get a hysterectomy in my 50's - something I'd love to avoid.)
How do I stay on top of it w/o obsessing. Since hearing the diagnosis, of course the symptoms have worsened - in true TMS style. I am aware of what's going on but I can't control it!
Someone give me a dose of reality please. Thanks. - Nor |
| 18 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| swmr1 |
Posted - 08/25/2007 : 08:47:13
quote:
We're just priveledged enough to have TMS.
Good way of putting it. We have the time and energy to obsess as well. |
| miche |
Posted - 08/24/2007 : 22:27:14
What a good point you make Nor! You hit it right on the nail, of course these women have the same health problems, but they seem trivial to them compared to the harship that they face on a daily basis. |
| Nor |
Posted - 08/24/2007 : 22:08:55
Wow, I was away from the computer for awhile and never expected such a contentious debate to ensue as a result of my over stretched pelvic floor! Thanks so much to everyone for the advice. I especially appreciate being reminded of how GYN symptoms can worsen w/TMS. For some reason, this was hard for me to get my head around b/c I've never had any GYN issues in the past. It all seemed new and "medical".
Regarding the 3rd world women, I think its just like all our other maladies....when you're struggling to find food to feed your family or running from some crazy militias, you don't have time to worry about back pain, headaches, depression or a dropped uterus. We're just priveledged enough to have TMS.
Nor |
| miche |
Posted - 08/24/2007 : 21:25:12
My two cents for all it's worth, it would be interesting to find out if nuns have dropped uterus and bladders would it not? Personnally I do think that some childbieth are hard on the body, I was in labor for thirty six hours and delivered a nine lbs 4oz baby , I am considered a petite woman, there is only so much stretching that will accommodate a baby this size, forceps were used and multiple stiches took place, being of short stature , a baby this size was pressing on my diaphram and caused me a lot of reflux problems, my grandmother died from chilbirth complications, not every one has an easy time of childbirth as natural as it is, breatfeeding is also considered natural yet many women find the whole process painful and frustrating, my mother had seven children , her gynocologist felt that was the reason for her dropped uterus , if wear and tear comes with the aging process then why would it not affect the ligaments that hold this system in place especially when they have ben affected by pregnancies I am not an advocate for surgery unless it is absolutely necessary but I can see that a uterus dropping can certainly be a consequence of multiple pregnancies, and I think that most doctors will agree on that.
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| Littlebird |
Posted - 08/24/2007 : 21:10:59
Hi Nor,
You asked how to stay on top of your situation without obsessing, and it sounds like you are already on the right track by recognizing that it's not all that uncommon to have this physical condition.
Just before I learned of Sarno, I read a good book called "Stop Being Your Symptoms and Start Being Yourself: A 6-Week Mind-Body Program to Ease Your Chronic Symptoms," by Dr. Arthur Barsky and Dr. Emily Deans, which I feel fits well with TMS theory. It can be applied to help one stop focusing on TMS symptoms and it can also be applied to help one stop obsessing over truly physical symptoms.
The book mentions how in recent decades the media and drug companies have kind of given us the impression that we should be highly concerned about even minor issues, but if we're realistic about the idea that our bodies are not perfect and it's normal for there to be wear and tear (as Dr. Sarno points out too) we can live with these real physical issues without being obsessive about trying to correct them or allowing them to diminish our quality of life. That's not to say that the exercises won't be good for you--I'm sure even Dr. Sarno would say that keeping your muscles toned through exercise is a good thing to do, and the pelvic floor is an area that may not get the kind of exercise that keeps those muscles toned by any means other than Kegels, so I think doing them is likely to be helpful.
I have some "real" gynecological issues and I've found that my unconscious does sometimes make the usual sensations related to those issues worse, but I've learned to recognize that when things flare up beyond the usual level, it's an indication that TMS is at work and I can look at what's going on emotionally and bring the level of the symptoms back down to where they normally would be without the TMS influence. I am learning not to let myself panic and focus on the sensations when there is a flare up, but to focus on the psychological triggers, which helps short-circuit my tendency to obsess.
Alexis, I found your comment about asking oneself "What is a healthy reaction to possible illness?" to be reasonable advice. And I found the page on the link you provided interesting. I read somewhere that in developing nations untreated fistulas often lead to women being abandoned by their families, because of the incontinence that generally occurs. Interestingly, I've also read that the number one reason elderly women in the USA are placed in nursing homes is that they develop incontinence and their families don't want to deal with it. I understand the challenge of dealing with it, since I cared for my mother, who had serious incontinence, so I think it's good to be aware that there are real gynecological conditions that may lead to incontinence later in life and to take some kind of preventive action if we happen to have one of those conditions. I have to agree that balance is a good thing to aim for as we live with both TMS and any real conditions. |
| swmr1 |
Posted - 08/24/2007 : 19:59:35
quote:
And my point on women in "3rd world" countries (first introduced into the discussion by skizzik, by the way, not me)
And sizzik's point, which you so very obviously didn't get, was that if women in third world countries are surviving with 5 kids sans kegel exercises, perhaps a "slightly dropped uterus" after two kids with modern medicine isn't a horrific diagnosis worthy of a lot of worry.
quote:
...is not that there are horrors to 3rd world medicine, but that, despite what TMS extremist may want to believe, there are often horrors to having no medicine at all. And childbirth can be hell on the body. Since the 3rd world woman was introduced as a basis for comparison, I suggest we look at that realistically.
I don't think sizzik was proposing that we should get rid of all modern medicine and live like the woman with 5 kids in a third world country! Show me where he/she suggests such a thing. The point, can I state ONE more time in hopes that you finally GET IT, is that there are people in sparse, primitive conditions whose bodies have adapted to the demands on them. Just think how different it is for us! We have so much more in terms of medicine, nutrition, etc. For a woman to think that childbirth and heavy lifting is something horrific she's done to her body is silly. THAT is the point. So sorry you believe that childbirth is something so traumatic. I guess God or evolution has really screwed that one up, huh?
BTW: Your link discusses the real cause of the problems with these women is their lack of nutrition and non-status in their countries. It has less to do with their anatomies and more to do with the political and social problems they face.
I'm truly sorry, Nor. That's all I have to say to Alexis. I do hope you aren't experiencing pain. If you are, I just hope you know that you haven't been too hard on your body. You will recover. Sorry for hijacking this thread. |
| miche |
Posted - 08/24/2007 : 19:28:07
Nor, from the reading of these posts, it seems your question has not been answered, all I can tell you is that from my own experience you have no cause to be unduly concerned, also there are procedures being done to remedy these problems should they become tiresome that do not involve the complete removal of your uterus, if someone tell you otherwise I would suggest you get a second opinion, as a matter of fact I would recommend that you do just that if only to give you some peace of mind. Best of luck to you ,
Micheline
ps: I also believe that a slightly dropped uterus and bladder is a normal part of aging and that you can live with this condition for many years without problems |
| alexis |
Posted - 08/24/2007 : 16:55:34
quote:
Originally posted by swmr1
Alexis,
You started this irritating debate. I see where you are coming from once I get past your annoying opening statement (though I think you are too extreme in your rant).
Yes, I may have been a bit emphatic, but only because I think that sort of dismissal in the first response is in itself extreme. There are dangers here both of disregarding real health issues and of scaring off newcomers with an image of TMS extremism.
quote:
Originally posted by swmr1
Let Nor defend herself.
None of these posts is about one person. This is public forum and most of us learn from posts addressed to other people. In that regard I think it is open to anyone to address any side of an issue they see fit, for the benefit of anyone who reads it.
And my point on women in "3rd world" countries (first introduced into the discussion by skizzik, by the way, not me) is not that there are horrors to 3rd world medicine, but that, despite what TMS extremist may want to believe, there are often horrors to having no medicine at all. And childbirth can be hell on the body. Since the 3rd world woman was introduced as a basis for comparison, I suggest we look at that realistically.
Here is just one example of what the wonders of the natural process of vaginal birth bring in the abscence of serious medical intervention:
http://www.fistulafoundation.org/aboutfistula/faqs.html
Before anyone jumps on me, I'm certainly not recommending inreasing the number of cesarians...they may well be overused today. But to suggest that vaginal births do not also risk potentially great damage to women is irresponsible. The only countries in the world where female life expectancy is below male have these statistics as a result of death during "natural" childbirth.
Again this gets back to the balance. Yes, the first step is to escape the focus on the physical. But just don't go to far. A balance is always more intellectually difficult than a simple position like "the body is strong" or "childbirth is natural" (whatever "natural" means). But unlitmately we have to go out into the real world where real injuries to exist, and where millions of women are genuinely injured by childbirth. |
| swmr1 |
Posted - 08/24/2007 : 16:38:44
Alexis,
You started this irritating debate. I see where you are coming from once I get past your annoying opening statement (though I think you are too extreme in your rant).
You said:
quote:
OK, for those of us who actually know the hell that a lot of women in 3rd world countries live in post-child birth, not to mention the mortality rate...
Quite the inflammatory way of opening your post. As if sizzik and I are morons who don't understand the potential horrors of third world medicine. YOU were the one to make this statement, and, therefore make an issue of women in third world countries.
Your rant about the horrors of childbirth is extreme as well. I think sizzik was right on about the "slightly dropped uterus" comments. What the heck does that term even mean. I'm sure mine is "slightly dropped" after three kids. I, again, think that sizzik was just trying to downplay Nor's fears of serious problems. You are the one getting all huffy. Let Nor defend herself. |
| alexis |
Posted - 08/24/2007 : 16:09:47
quote:
Originally posted by swmr1
I was never saying women in third world countries are the epitome of happiness and health. Why you would assume that was the point of the statement is beyond me.
I never assumed that and to claim I did is a massive misquote. As I clearly stated, I was objecting to an under-estimation of the *health* aspects of child-bearing in third world countries. With regard to the rest of it I couldn't care less for the purposes of this discussion, and you are the only one bringing it up.
The original responder said, among other things:
quote:
Vaginal births????
...
Sarno says if you could lift it, it wasn't too heavy. You mean the most natural form of childbirth leads to future pain?
...
A slightly dropped uterus and bladder? How do they come up w/ this stuff?
And then goes on to further dismiss the diagnosis Nor recieved, while [potentially insultingly] implying she got the "seed" of the pain from a women's magazine:
quote:
I'ts so difficult to go psychological while being in discomfort, I'm sorry for you on that, but can you manage to find any link to the symptoms and what was happening when you got them? Where was the "pain seed" planted? From a woman's magazine that has the same article w/ different words every month, Like an article on losing 10 pounds, cancer, or genital disease? Those mags are horrible. They suck you in w/ a good looking "got it together" woman on the cover, and then scare the life out of you w/ their articles.
I have no idea where Nor's symptoms come from, but she recovered from TMS before on her own and isn't an idiot. To come in here with half assed unprofessional attempts at re-diagnosing her situation is irresponsible. Nor is in charge of her own health and asking for help on a specific issue (facing real problems when you have a TMS personality). You guys know her situation better than she does?
And you guys keep comparing this to stuff Sarno said about *backs*! What the heck does that have to do with anything? |
| mamaboulet |
Posted - 08/24/2007 : 09:23:01
Who is Dr Scott Brady?
I'm going to order Dr Sarno's Divided Mind book. |
| shawnsmith |
Posted - 08/24/2007 : 08:32:01
quote:
Originally posted by swmr1
Dr. Sarno mentions that people through most of human history have done far more physically demanding things to their backs (and entire bodies for that matter) and have not suffered the myriad of back problems we do today. We are told to sleep on our sides with a pillow between our legs, never on our stomachs or backs, etc. What have people done since the beginning of time? They had no beds! Our bodies are a little more resilient and adaptive than that, I think.
That was pure poetry!!!! And you are 100% correct! Two Sarno points for you.
*******
Sarno-ize it!
Read chapter 4 of Dr. Sarno's "The Divided Mind." Also chapers 3, 4 and 5 in Dr. Scott Brady's "Pain Free For Life" are very important. |
| swmr1 |
Posted - 08/24/2007 : 06:37:08
quote:
...my impression is that the original author you quoted (and you by your agreement) are implying that the health impacts of childbirth were not relevant or important issues among these difficulties.
I am referencing the life altering and catastrophic impact that childbirth has physically on many of these women. And no, kegel exercises wouldn't even help in most cases. Childbirth is serious business and can do real damage. I don't think the potential should be minimized just because we want to biew it as some beautiful and natural process. It can do serious harm to the body, and it can kill you. Especially in 3rd world countries. People in their cushy little developed word bubbles with 1.5 kids and access to modern facilities and cesarians at a whim seem to have forgotten the deaths and permanant bodily damage common in childbirth.
Look, I've had three babies myself. I know it's not necessarily an easy process but it IS a natural one that our bodies have evolved to not only be able to handle but to be able to handle multiple times. Where the heck do you come from acting like it's some foreign process as if we were Sigourney Weaver in Alien?
For God's sake, women in third world countries have a TON of things to be unhappy/unhealthy about. So do men and children. What does that have to do with anything? People are dying of minor illnesses in those countries too--does that mean we should all run screaming and panicking when we get a virus?
I think the original authors' point was that the diagnosis Nor received may not be all that dire. I think the original response was to combat any fear Nor has about what her Dr. said. Your response is the one that makes absolutely no sense.
Dr. Sarno mentions that people through most of human history have done far more physically demanding things to their backs (and entire bodies for that matter) and have not suffered the myriad of back problems we do today. We are told to sleep on our sides with a pillow between our legs, never on our stomachs or backs, etc. What have people done since the beginning of time? They had no beds! Our bodies are a little more resilient and adaptive than that, I think.
THAT was the point with which I was agreeing. I was never saying women in third world countries are the epitome of happiness and health. Why you would assume that was the point of the statement is beyond me. |
| alexis |
Posted - 08/24/2007 : 04:59:00
quote:
Originally posted by swmr1
[Yes, you got it. I was saying that women with 5 children in third world countries have it all. Theirs is a life of luxury! So glad you got my point!!!
I think we're refering to different issues. You are recognizing that these women have many difficulties, but my impression is that the original author you quoted (and you by your agreement) are implying that the health impacts of childbirth were not relevant or important issues among these difficulties.
I am referencing the life altering and catastrophic impact that childbirth has physically on many of these women. And no, kegel exercises wouldn't even help in most cases. Childbirth is serious business and can do real damage. I don't think the potential should be minimized just because we want to biew it as some beautiful and natural process. It can do serious harm to the body, and it can kill you. Especially in 3rd world countries. People in their cushy little developed word bubbles with 1.5 kids and access to modern facilities and cesarians at a whim seem to have forgotten the deaths and permanant bodily damage common in childbirth.
I simply found it a little disrespectful to see this impact minimized, especially when someone is describing their own health issues that may (or may not) be genuinely impacted by the very real physical challenges of childbirth. If I were in Nor's position I would have be downright pissed off by the responses.
It is possible that you and the original author did not, in fact, have the same point in mind.
This goes back to my distinction of stages in TMS recovery. You may need a stage where you minimize the existence of real health issues and believe it's all TMS. I just caution against reading this into other people potential, and potentially very real, health problems. |
| swmr1 |
Posted - 08/23/2007 : 20:10:22
quote:
OK, for those of us who actually know the hell that a lot of women in 3rd world countries live in post-child birth, not to mention the mortality rate...
Yes, you got it. I was saying that women with 5 children in third world countries have it all. Theirs is a life of luxury! So glad you got my point!!! |
| alexis |
Posted - 08/23/2007 : 18:18:32
OK, for those of us who actually know the hell that a lot of women in 3rd world countries live in post-child birth, not to mention the mortality rate...
So Nor, you may have a very real condition. The problem as I see it is that a lot of folks here focus on the question of "Is it real?" rather than "What is a healthy reaction to possible illness?" I think if you can manage the second question, the first is likely to clear up on its own. If even real illness doesn't throw you, why on earth would your body make up a fake one?
I went through this transition when I had recovered from TMS "RSI" and then had Achilles tendonitis. And you know what? There was no way to know if that one was real, yet I was picturing it way out of all proportion. So I shifted my thinking. I read some good pieces here on this site about observations that many with terminal illnesses didn't focus on them, and that the non-TMS runners never imagined the worst. Then I picked out role models in the real world -- people who not only didn't seem to have lots of fake aches and pains, but barged on through life with real health problems.
And so it was a shift in thinking. Because "Is it real?" isn't always going to work for you. Because someday you'll have something where you really can't know, and eventually you'll have something very real. So the mental shift has to be different. "Is it real?" can be the start. If you've got something obviously TMS it's a nice black and white launching pad. Rejecting everything as TMS is a possible first step in the great health dialectic.
Thesis: I'm weak and sick and going to die!
Antithesis: It's all TMS! We are infinitely strong! Think Psychological!
Syntheis: Mostly we're healthy. Sometimes your sick, but it shouldn't rule your life.
(OK, that's hokey, but you get the idea. Many people here are still at the antithesis stage. Either they'll move on, or backslide as soon as they get a real illness.)
But eventually you have to move on to the next phase: healthy attitude to not only fake-o TMS pain, but to real and even serious illness.
I don't remember my exact transition. But it was sort of from "my body's strong" to "my body's strong even with some stupid imperfections". But more than that. It was a change of focus away from health. An attitude that I would approach life with gusto even if I was dying. Because THOSE people now are my role models. I will NEVER be my illness as long as I can help it.
So I hope I'm ready. So far the challenges of "real" or indeterminite illness and injury have been few and have passed easily. But I know the way I *want* to live my life even with the most serious illnesses that may come along.
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| swmr1 |
Posted - 08/23/2007 : 17:23:55
quote:
Do 40 plus women in 3rd world countries who walk all over w/ 5 kids, one on their back, and a jug of whatever on their head do kegel excercises at the end of the day?
What a GREAT point. EXACTLY!!! |
| skizzik |
Posted - 08/23/2007 : 16:13:55
Sounds like the equivalent of a back Doctor telling someone they have a shorter leg, or tipped pelvis. Their back hurts from carrying their 2nd baby around so much while bending over a lot to deal w/ child #1. Of course TMS'rs reckognize the repressed mental rage of a mother w/ 2 little ones.
Heavy lifting????Vaginal births????
Where you a furniture mover or something? Sarno says if you could lift it, it wasn't too heavy. You mean the most natural form of childbirth leads to future pain? You say it's common, what is? The dropping of said organs, or the pain associated w/ it?
A slightly dropped uterus and bladder? How do they come up w/ this stuff? (the slightly dropping may be true, but don't all our organs slightly drop as we age, take skin for an example)
They are medically trained. They have to fill out insurance forms to get paid. In my field (technician) we close out some trouble tickets to "no trouble found." We still get paid because the trbl could be in an area beyond our "demarcation point" (the point where our equipment stops and the customer's begin) and we did work to prove there's no trouble in our equipment. In this case, I think an insurance company would eventually get suspicious as well as colleauges that a Doctor is known for a "no trouble found" diagnosis and would be considered bad or lazy perhaps.
They have to find something. Anything. Something where you can go "oh, I see." You both can agree, and your'e on your way home satisfied w/ his diagnosis, but scared as hell now. They don't want you to think your'e crazy. Just find something, put it in the report, and get to the next patient in the waiting room. They want to go home on time at the end of the day just like you and me. If he says your physical makeup is normal for a woman your age and births associated w/ you, you'll move on to the next doc who will give you a diagnosis, and you can both roll your eyes at the first doc.
The problem is there is no "demarcation point" where the physical symptoms stop being structural and become "mental". Insurance won't cover that. Insurance companies have dr.s working for them that approve these diagnosis's and decide whether to reimburse or not.
He mentioned it got worse w/ age. I hate the word "worse." Your in your 40's. Go look at some pic's of when you were 19, is your skin different? Would you say it's worse now? Does that make it painful?
There's definitely true forms of pain from organs as we age in some cases. My mom had an ovary fuse w/ another organ that gave her pain when she moved in certain positions. After the surgery she could feel the difference as her range of motion was back to normal. I'd chalk that up to a real diagnosis, and an uncommon one too.
If the doc says you have a "common" problem, and uses terms like "slight dropping", he's ruled out anything serious, or a "horrible disease" like you feared.
I'ts so difficult to go psychological while being in discomfort, I'm sorry for you on that, but can you manage to find any link to the symptoms and what was happening when you got them? Where was the "pain seed" planted? From a woman's magazine that has the same article w/ different words every month, Like an article on losing 10 pounds, cancer, or genital disease? Those mags are horrible. They suck you in w/ a good looking "got it together" woman on the cover, and then scare the life out of you w/ their articles.
Do 40 plus women in 3rd world countries who walk all over w/ 5 kids, one on their back, and a jug of whatever on their head do keigel excercises at the end of the day?
Like you said the symptoms have worsened since the diagnosis. Thats a good sign.  |
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