| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| AnthonEE |
Posted - 08/21/2007 : 16:06:58
Hello. I am new to this forum. I happened across a few postings while doing some online research. Until today I had never heard of TMS, but it sure does sound like a dead ringer for what I've been struggling with recently. This is my first post, and I was wondering if others might be able to comment.
I'm 40 yrs old, in the Boston area, and only 2-3 years ago was a very strong athlete, in top physical condition, perfect nutrition, etc. I could run a 19min 5K, hike the 4000 footers without so much as getting winded, cycle, lift weights, ski... Then I hit 38 and it seems that all four wheels just LITERALLY FELL OFF. At any given moment I've got a list of 12 injuries going, many of them chronic and disabling. Besides a rotator cuff repair, no MRI has ever shown any real problem. Yet in a matter of two years, I am nearly unable to walk, cycle, lift weights, and going up and down stairs can be excruciating. I don't know what's happening to me. It's simply too much too fast, and cannot be explained away by age alone.
My pattern is this: go out and try to do some exercise, and then so much as sneeze the wrong way and I get a new injury. The injury heals up in a few weeks, only to return later (sometimes a month, sometimes six) to become chronic pain and often disabling. Then comes the anxiety over what it all means. I've seen endocrinologists, orthopedic doctors, general doctors, neurologists, physical therapists, even a psychiatrist and therapist. Nothing! My primary doctor wants me to see a rheumatologist. I SWEAR I've never been a hypochondriac before. But everybody including my girlfriend now thinks I'm a nut, and my insurance must absolutely hate me. I've been unable to walk more than short distances for a good chunk of the past year. I've started to develop anxiety disorder triggered by my disability. I'm scared, confused, frustrated, and desperate to become healthy again. I've started to think obsessively about getting older, and about my younger years. I feel like my body is 80 years old. 
I was referred to Dr Gino Martinez at NEBH by an orthopedic surgeon that I saw about some neuropathy apparently originating in my shoulder, and happened upon this forum when googling his name and also while researching about Sarno's books. I'm very interested to discuss this with others. Do others have experience with this doctor? And I see MUCH discussion about Sarno's book, MBP, I've already ordered it and look forward to a good read.
Does it sound like, based on your collective experience, that I may be a member of a club that I never intended to join??? And I saw several postings that indicated TMS has a higher prevalence in the Boston area. Any trend that others might be aware of? Thank you for your comments! And I apologize if many of my questions are already covered in the FAQs, I'm just so new to all this.
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| 20 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| mamaboulet |
Posted - 08/24/2007 : 09:21:03
quote:
Originally posted by AnthonEE
quote:
Originally posted by Littlebird
http://www.etex.net/kelving
Excellent link, thank you!
sweet! Thanks! |
| AnthonEE |
Posted - 08/24/2007 : 09:07:28
quote:
Originally posted by Littlebird
http://www.etex.net/kelving
Excellent link, thank you! |
| Webdan65 |
Posted - 08/23/2007 : 15:48:55
AnthonEE,
Sarno's books do offer a treatment chapter. Some people often say that it's not in depth enough or doesn't give enough instruction. I think in part because the treatment isn't very complex, so Sarno doesn't spend 100 pages on the book. He does devote a full 32 pages to it.
Someone pointed out in a recent forum post:
"The Diagnosis is the Cure."
That is so close to a perfect description it's not funny. This will make a lot more sense to you 4-8 weeks from now. In the meanwhile I'll share with you this post of my recent episode.
http://tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3766
I also offer a quick summary of the treatment program:
Stay focused on the fundamentals.
* Read and re-read Sarno's book/books.
* Do the TMS "work" every day. (see below)
* Take control of your thoughts
* Refute the physical
* Don't fear the pain
* Think psychological
* Journaling - on a daily basis. Explore anger, tensions, annoyances, frustrations, daily pressures, irritations, personality traits, etc. Write until you run out of thoughts or ink. Keep extra pens handy.
* Resume physical activities when there is a significant reduction in pain.
Rinse, lather, repeat.
Obviously the book will go into great depth about the research, the basis for Sarno's conclusions, case studies, TMS equivalents, etc.
The key here is spend a lot of time looking inside. Any time you feel the pain, stop thinking about or analyzing the pain. Just Keep asking yourself "What's going on underneath the covers?" "What's bugging me now?".
And most of all be patient. Give it time to sink in.
Dan |
| Littlebird |
Posted - 08/23/2007 : 15:39:33
Here are a couple of links that may be helpful in beginning to follow the regime:
http://www.etex.net/kelving (a site created by one of the forum members, Kelvin, with some very good direction regarding journaling.)
http://tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=3835 (A thread on which Dan explains how he treats his TMS.)
And here's a link to a thread with many excerpts from Dr. Sarno's most recent book, The Divided Mind, which you may find interesting to read through. http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2605 |
| AnthonEE |
Posted - 08/23/2007 : 15:05:25
Thank you Dan. You mention that Sarno gives the training regime. I think I saw somewhere on Amazon a companion workbook to go along with Sarno. The claim was that Sarno gives the discussion about TMS, but offers little in the way of a treatment regime. Do you think this is the case? I have the MindBody Prescription, and am hoping it gives me enough idea about what I can "do". Or at least enough to get started. Would you recommend another one of his books in addition to "MBP"? Thanks!
HilaryN, yes, for the most part I took stanfr's post just as you describe. I'm starting to understand the idea of "belief which involves the understanding of [mostly consistent] concepts". This is the important point for me. It allows the TMS idea to be accepted without appeal to blind faith, or protection from constructive criticism or questioning. And that's what seems most important. If the people like me are to ever believe, and thus find help, then the concepts really need to hold water and remain transparent for discussion. Or as Dan says, at least prior to a commitment to work this program. Otherwise there would be no way to judge if TMS treatment is different from some strange cargo cult culture that Richard Feynman writes about. At least not without the benefit of direct experience like Woodchuck just posted. None of us have time to try random things on blind faith to cure our ills. I think that was mostly the point I was trying to make in my previous long winded rambling (sorry!)
So yes, unless the book just doesn't fit for some reason, I'm in with both feet, and very optimistic based on your comments and support.
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| Webdan65 |
Posted - 08/23/2007 : 13:25:20
AnthonEE:
It's not blind faith that is required. But you do need to be open minded enough to explore whether or not you fit the TMS mold. It seems that you are open to TMS as the cause of your pain. That's a great starting point.
And if you see yourself in the pages of the book enough - then you will need to believe in the proven process enough to begin the work. Once again, not blind faith - but viewing a model of success and seeing how you fit into that model.
I would imagine many of us have SOME doubts sometimes - especially when the pain is bad or when a doctor says something about a physical cause. It's committing to do the TMS and emotional work that seems to allow me to break through despite some lingering doubts.
An analogy: You may not believe with 100% certainty that you can run a 10K race in record time. But you need enough belief that you continue to train and work towards your goal. In the 10K race example - you surely wouldn't win if you trained half heartedly skeptical of why you are doing it - all the while feeling that you won't win anyway. In this case, your goal is living pain free. And it requires a similar level of commitment and belief in yourself and the process.
Sarno has given you the "training regime" so to speak. And many of us in the forum have finished the race in record time by following Sarno's program.
Obviously you sound like you see yourself in the description of TMS. And barring pure laboratory proof, let the testimony of those on this forum, thousands of Sarno's patients - as well as hundreds who wrote positive book reviews on Amazon play into your decision or belief system. (search for Sarno's book Healing Back Pain in Amazon and look for the reviews.)
A healthy skepticism is normally a healthy thing. In the case of TMS - once you have enough evidence to believe you fit the mold, cast aside the skepticism as you do the work. As you retrain your mind.
I guess to summarize. Question the theory all you want up front prior to making your decision if this is right for you. But once you decide to embark on TMS treatment, further questioning will only slow your progress down.
Leave the blind faith home - make an educated decision and then go forward with confidence that you fit the TMS description to a "T". (as you said yourself) You can and WILL find relief. We did, so can you.
Dan |
| HilaryN |
Posted - 08/23/2007 : 13:19:57
AnthonEE,
I quite agree with your "long and analytical" post.
I think it's been mentioned before on this forum that "blind faith" doesn't really work as an approach - rather a belief which involves understanding of the concepts.
I've completely recovered from my chronic pain, even though there were/are certain aspects of Sarno's explanation I find difficult to relate to.
My understanding of stanfr's post was that it was just questioning/discussing the "finer points" of Sarno's theory - not his theory as a whole.
Hilary N |
| Woodchuck |
Posted - 08/23/2007 : 12:32:20
quote:
Originally posted by Dave
AnthonEE,
Your message is very long and analytical and in a general sense it seems reasonable.
But TMS is not a rational process and does not respond to analysis and intellectualization. In fact, these are enemies of TMS treatment.
TMS theory is based on the assumption that primitive, unconscious emotions are the root of our symptoms. It is a defense of the mind to prevent us from feeling these "forbidden" feelings.
You will never find scientific proof of the TMS theory. One can make endless arguments that Dr. Sarno is wrong, with seemingly valid reasoning. It is much easier to prove that back pain is caused by a bulging disc because we can see that bulge on an MRI. The same kind of evidence is not available for TMS. The evidence we have is an abundance of clinical cases including thousands of patients treated successfully by Dr. Sarno.
Successful treatment of TMS requires us to take a leap of faith. It requires us to believe that clinical evidence alone is valid "proof". It requires us to accept that modern medicine is arrogant to claim that emotions cannot be responsible for real physical symptoms. It requires us to believe that humans simply do not understand so much about how the brain works.
Analysis and intellectualization is not going to get you relief. If you are part of the majority that needs scientific proof, or cannot dismiss your skeptecism, at least enough to give the TMS treatment methods a chance and do the work honestly and diligently, then you just may be out of luck.
On the other hand, if you see yourself described in the pages of Dr. Sarno's book and believe that his theory may be correct, and feel that you have nothing to lose by believing in it and really trying to do the work, then you can get better even if you have some lingering doubt. You just need to dismiss that doubt enough to allow the treatment to work.
Thanks Dave for this excellent and balanced summarization which I think clarifies to me why my pain went away so rapidly! I generally will not accept anything on "faith", wanting black and white proof, but in the case of TMS, I told myself to "go for it!" and apparently that allowed enough faith to creep in to show me tangible results and the pain dissipated rapidly. That's all the "proof" I need ;)
Woodchuck |
| Dave |
Posted - 08/23/2007 : 11:43:57
AnthonEE,
Your message is very long and analytical and in a general sense it seems reasonable.
But TMS is not a rational process and does not respond to analysis and intellectualization. In fact, these are enemies of TMS treatment.
TMS theory is based on the assumption that primitive, unconscious emotions are the root of our symptoms. It is a defense of the mind to prevent us from feeling these "forbidden" feelings.
You will never find scientific proof of the TMS theory. One can make endless arguments that Dr. Sarno is wrong, with seemingly valid reasoning. It is much easier to prove that back pain is caused by a bulging disc because we can see that bulge on an MRI. The same kind of evidence is not available for TMS. The evidence we have is an abundance of clinical cases including thousands of patients treated successfully by Dr. Sarno.
Successful treatment of TMS requires us to take a leap of faith. It requires us to believe that clinical evidence alone is valid "proof". It requires us to accept that modern medicine is arrogant to claim that emotions cannot be responsible for real physical symptoms. It requires us to believe that humans simply do not understand so much about how the brain works.
Analysis and intellectualization is not going to get you relief. If you are part of the majority that needs scientific proof, or cannot dismiss your skeptecism, at least enough to give the TMS treatment methods a chance and do the work honestly and diligently, then you just may be out of luck.
On the other hand, if you see yourself described in the pages of Dr. Sarno's book and believe that his theory may be correct, and feel that you have nothing to lose by believing in it and really trying to do the work, then you can get better even if you have some lingering doubt. You just need to dismiss that doubt enough to allow the treatment to work.
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| armchairlinguist |
Posted - 08/23/2007 : 11:36:46
I wrote in another thread, and have been prone to repeating since then, that the important part of dealing with the question of doubt is the commitment that you bring. If you believe in the essentials of the theory (there really are a few core points that you need to find convincing in order to proceed -- note I don't say take on faith, but find convincing based on evidence and explanations) and you are committed to treating your pain as psychosomatic, then I believe you will have success.
--
Wherever you go, there you are. |
| AnthonEE |
Posted - 08/23/2007 : 11:19:56
quote:
Originally posted by armchairlinguist
Descartes was dumb. :-)
Thanks! I agree with the points you have all made.
quote:
This is why, IMO, it is counterproductive to question the theory. Anything that adds doubt to the equation compromises the chance of success.
All - It does make me nervous to hear that the TMS theory should not be questioned. It makes any skepticism I may be harboring all the more poignant. I apologize if this diverges a bit from this thread. Maybe I could restate... but in a way that will be easier for an overly critical thinker like myself to accept.
We must be very careful when we decide not to question theory. We must be intellectually honest and ALWAYS question theory (of course taking great care to do so when we might not be an expert in the field). If the data supports the theory, then such questioning will further reinforce the belief in the theory, as it well should. If the data does not support the theory, then we move on, as we well should.
There are many writings, written by prophets, proclaiming truth and promising hope as long as one believes. These books have thousands of years of history, with millions of success stories. Some of it true? Perhaps. Some of it false? Perhaps. Yet these books are certainly not consistent, not even self consistent. Above all, they must not be questioned! Best intentions aside, some of these unquestioned beliefs have caused great ill and suffering in the world, possibly more than the sum total benefit they have provided. It is when we take theory on faith alone, that we turn off the key faculty that makes us human, the ability to reason and to make informed choice. It opens the door for false prophets, mystics, quacks, voodoo medicine, and conflict. It's a bad road for you, for me, for all of us.
This is not in any way to suggest that something very positive and productive is not going on with the TMS theory. I'm already positively convinced there may be something to this, and I've had only this forum to educate me so far. But if unconditional belief (without questioning the theory) is really a key part of this, then Sarno could just as well ask me to wear a fruit basket on my head, and if I really truly believe, then I will find healing. If it be true, then so be it. Call it what it is, and add it to the theory. We all benefit, and that's the goal.
But if it is not true, then there is a danger, and we all lose.
What if I had happened across a second forum with a different theory, from a credible expert, one that should not be questioned? (I can probably find one) Which forum would I then choose? Maybe one forum is a waste of time, and the other is not. Maybe they are both a waste of time. Maybe they both work. In each scenario, we must evaluate the data, and make an informed rational decision. So far I choose the TMS forum over the fruit basket forum, hands down. This choice is based on my increasing data and asking/answering sensible questions about this theory.
The outcome may still be very positive for TMS theory, provided the data supports it. And it appears that it does! And likely the qualified doctors with most experience (such as Sarno) should and do play a key role in scrutinizing and defending this theory, not random unqualified people like me. But I still get to review what is known and make informed questions and decisions to keep myself out of more trouble than I'm already in.
But there is always danger in taking on faith alone, any theory provided by any group of self professed experts, no matter the credentials. Because if the data does turn out to be wrong, then we've all wasted a great deal of time, energy, and hope. Even worse, it is possible that those requiring other medical care could have lost precious time by walking around with a fruit basket on their head (no appropriate smily icon is available for this comment)
We all have the common goal to find and accept the correct answer, whatever that might be, and get better. So we should never be afraid to honestly question a theory. If it is correct, then it is correct. If it is not correct, then we should find out post-haste and move along.
I don't mean to offend anybody here. I just think it is really a very important point, especially since I have been reading so much controversy about this topic, and maybe a fresh view point might be helpful.
Regardless, your comments have been very helpful and comforting to me. I really appreciate the feedback from all. I see Dr Martinez tomorrow, and should get to start reading Sarno tonight. I'm really looking forward to it! |
| Dave |
Posted - 08/23/2007 : 09:01:32
quote:
Originally posted by AnthonEE
One thing that I'm still wondering about, and time will of course tell, is how many of my chronic injuries (or disabilities whatever you call them) will respond to the work I'm setting out to do?
You have to accept there is no such thing as a chronic injury. Any injuries you had in the past have healed completely. The chronic part is TMS. |
| Webdan65 |
Posted - 08/23/2007 : 08:52:41
AnthonEE:
As you'll see in the book, a true injury like a broken toe will heal within a reasonable period of time. A few weeks perhaps. It's when the pain continues well past our bodies natural ability to heal that one should become suspicious.
Sarno also points out that it is somewhat unclear why TMS causes this pain instead of allowing the emotional pain to unveil itself. And despite our conscious impression that it is not in our own best interest, it's the subconscious mind that controls this bugger.
Enjoy your relaxing weekend. Bring a note pad and a few pens so you can journal too. Be sure to post if your read something the gang here can help with.
Dan |
| armchairlinguist |
Posted - 08/23/2007 : 08:44:59
I'm not sure there is any distraction as effective as pain, frankly. You may think there is, but pain is incredibly all-consuming. When I was in pain, I was thinking about how to mitigate it. When I wasn't, I was thinking about how not to cause more. Virtually every activity came with some sort of caveat.
If I were you, I would start TMS work with openness to the possibility that anything you have that isn't an acute injury is TMS. If you have issues with some of it being persistent, do get checked out.
And finally, regarding the mind and body: the mind is the brain, and the brain is the body. They are simply not separate. Descartes was dumb. :-)
--
Wherever you go, there you are. |
| AnthonEE |
Posted - 08/23/2007 : 08:33:51
Ya, I think I really did myself in about two years back, emotionally that is. Wasn't by choice of course, never is I suppose. But when life dishes out some really tough problems, it takes time and energy for your mind (conscious or unconscious) to get wrapped around it properly. That's when it's so important to have strong support networks in your life, during those times. What I learned was that when it all happens too fast, then your mind has a sort of seizure, figuratively speaking. The older you get the more susceptible you can become. And the more your personality type fits a certain profile (same as TMS profile, go figure!) the more susceptible you may be as well. I had never experienced anxiety or panic attack before that. Simply awful and a terrifying experience. It's like an injury to the mind, and you need to recover from it just like if you had torn a muscle. Then maybe you need to rebuild emotional strength, just like if you were in PT for the torn muscle. All this takes time, and is very very real.
What I never really appreciated, and maybe am just now beginning to accept, is that this has a profound effect on the physical body too. I mean why would it not? But for some reason, in our western society, there is this great divide between mind and body. And I'm one of these people that is really hard on myself and I analyze everything to the nth degree. And I'm entering an age group that's no longer as robust as the 20 somethings. So I am particularly susceptible. And I also my have more reprogramming to do than the average person when it comes to accepting this connection between mind and body wellness. I've been trained all my life as a science/math/physics type where everything is just so objective. Talk about learning things the hard way. Why cant they teach us "useful" things like this in school?
One thing that I'm still wondering about, and time will of course tell, is how many of my chronic injuries (or disabilities whatever you call them) will respond to the work I'm setting out to do? Dan says TMS latches on to injuries and magnifies them to distract me from other more painful issues. I believe it, and I almost view this like having little defects in the armor. TMS uses these openings to get in. But this does not mean that everything must be TMS. If I break my toe, then clearly I've broken my toe, and it's going to hurt. I guess I still need to rule out anything that might be real and make sure it gets treated. Then that stuff that's being exaggerated or amplified by TMS, hopefully that will respond.
Also, I need to understand better why the TMS mechanism is so quick to distract one in this most unproductive way. Couldn't it distract me in some more pleasant way instead? I can think of a few ways that would be much better than not being able to walk or run, and just as effective or even more so. And it would have helped me outrun that hungry tiger back in the rain forest. Wouldn't that make me more fit for survival? I guess I just don't yet understand why this coping mechanism is in my best interest somehow.
Again, so many questions. My Sarno book is due to arrive today, and I'm going away for the weekend to read and relax. Very much looking forward to it.
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| Dave |
Posted - 08/23/2007 : 08:20:58
quote:
Originally posted by AnthonEE
I must admit, reading the thread about "Parts of TMS theory Incomplete/Mistaken" started by stanfr makes great reading, but makes me question even what little I've learned about Sarno's approach.
This is why, IMO, it is counterproductive to question the theory. Anything that adds doubt to the equation compromises the chance of success.
You have to decide for yourself if you are willing to believe a book written by a medical doctor based on years of clinical experience and thousands of success stories, without the analytical part of your mind getting in the way and questioning the theory. Even if there are components of the theory that raise skeptecism, it is critical to put those doubt aside and give it an honest effort.
By far the most important thing is to recognize that your own personality is similar to those described by Dr. Sarno as being susceptible to TMS. Even if you throw out all the details of the theory, one cannot dispute that the primary factor at work is conditioning -- and much of the work that we are doing is an effort to reverse that conditioning. |
| armchairlinguist |
Posted - 08/22/2007 : 16:12:53
Sounds like the only thing you've worn out is your emotions! Pushing yourself hard through all you've experienced life-issue-wise must have been quite draining to the unconscious.
I hope that your explorations of TMS give you a chance to explore that sense that you may have overextended from an emotional point of view, which is being transferred into the body of the mindbody and coming out through physical problems. I'd say it's extremely likely that aside from your specific injuries, which should all have resolved now, you have nothing physically wrong with you and will soon be running up Pike's Peak (wow) again.
--
Wherever you go, there you are. |
| AnthonEE |
Posted - 08/22/2007 : 15:14:35
quote:
Originally posted by swmr1
We're only 40 freakin' years old. There's no way our bodies should be giving out at this age!
Correct! This is why I'm hell bent to figure out what's going on. My old running partner (pun intended) is also 40 and just ran his fastest 10K time ever. And I can't walk. Yet I'm the one that's been dedicated to fitness, good nutrition, never smoke, no drugs, rarely drink, etc. (Maybe that's the problem  ) Just age? Bad luck? Doesn't add up!!
I must admit, reading the thread about "Parts of TMS theory Incomplete/Mistaken" started by stanfr makes great reading, but makes me question even what little I've learned about Sarno's approach. But I've decided to first read the book(s) with an open mind and make a dedicated effort to apply what I learn. And there are a few things I already know for absolute certain:
1. I experienced tremendous emotional trauma just before the onset of all these physical problems.
2. The mind has powerful influence over the physical body. There is overwhelming evidence, placebo effect being just one such well documented example.
3. For somebody to potentially suffer from TMS, I fit the psychological profile to a "T"
4. My physical body is not well, or so it "seems"
5. I've never made an honest attempt to use a mind-body approach to help attain physical wellness.
Conclusion: This avenue is completely unexplored by me, and is very much worth some effort. In retrospect it seems strange I didn't come to it before. I do really hope it helps.
Thanks again.
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| swmr1 |
Posted - 08/22/2007 : 12:46:44
AnthonEE--
I'm glad you're smiling I think it's such a function of my personality (and yours, it sounds like) to feel guilty for having "done something wrong" to cause my various aches and pains. When I read Sarno, I did particularly like the part where he talks about highly trained athletes who are supposedly "injured" by tiny movements an everyday person can do with ease. If anything, my back should be in better shape than the average person's and less susceptible to injury from bending over or picking up my child.
I think your exercise goals are totally doable. Start with something that doesn't freak you out too bad and just see if the pain is any worse than it would have been without activity. Since one day I'd exercise and feel pain and the next I'd exercise and feel fine, I knew that exercise probably wasn't the issue for me. I'd bet that will be the same for you.
I just swam in a meet where there were competitors in their 90's. A couple 92 year olds swam the 200 butterfly, for Pete's sake. We're only 40 freakin' years old. There's no way our bodies should be giving out at this age! |
| AnthonEE |
Posted - 08/22/2007 : 12:30:18
Swmr1, except for the three baby part, you hit my situation so square on the head it actually makes me smile. I even have fear and trembling when my girlfriend wants to go on a 2-3mile walk. I'm timid and afraid of further injury or prolonged recovery of existing injury! For Pete's sake, I used to run half marathons up Pikes Peak!!! How could I have become such a wimp? I have a very close doctor friend living in London. She calls me a "twig". That's British for "wimp"  And just as you say, I blame much on myself for pushing so hard on my body when I was younger. So it is very encouraging to read your common experience, especially since your outcome has been positive. Makes me hopeful I can do same. But no more half marathons, just a relaxing jog 2-3x per week, nice walks in the park, and weekend bike rides would be enough to make me plenty happy.
Webdan65, cant thank you enough for the support. Keep an open mind?? Will do!!
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