| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| stanfr |
Posted - 08/09/2007 : 11:26:13
Not enough tension in the forum, so i though id stir the pot 
-just kidding.
As i see it, there are three basic premises to Sarno's TMS theory:
1) The symptoms are psychogenic
2) They serve as distraction sto prevent repressed emotions form becoming conscious.
3) The 'cure' is to gain knowlege of the disorder.
Now, #1 is rock solid. One could argue from a body-mind perspective, but that would be counterproductive.
But, what if #2,3 are incorrect?
Floorten recently posted a reworking of TMS theory based on Tolle. I hadn't read Tolle at the time and was pretty critical of his idea. Now, i wonder if maybe he was right, but didn't go far enough?
I found "Power of Now" to be rather dull and silly, way too long for what was basically a simple newage restating of Zen philosophy, dressed up with phrases like "energy" and "vibrational frequency" that point out the author is somewhat clueless.
However, the basic idea may be correct, which is probably why his book was so successful, along with similar themes from D. Millman etc. The idea is that the mind "narrative" is the basis of disease, and by living in the present moment we can eliminate this harmful distraction.
I disagree with floorten and others that Sarno is concisitent with Tolle. There is no way one can "think psychological" and conciously try to retrieve emotions and still follow Tolle's idea of avoiding all concept of time; living only in the moment, etc.
Rather, as floorten points out, Tolle's argument points out the weakness in the Sarno approach, since by "thinking psychological" one might actually be "feeding" the syndrome by actually being part of it. This would explain why many of us who fully accept the psychogenic basis are fighting an uphill battle, and why some report feeling ill or getting worse due to journaling, therapy etc.
Perhaps the symptoms actually serve to distract not from "repressed thoughts/emotions" but conscious ones (or maybe semi-conscious). The constant mind-chatter or narrative of the thinking mind, when not involved in a flight or flight situation (per Amir, Brady, Jacobs etc) could in fact lead to real disease, by the release of stress related chemicals. Left unchecked, the emotions could build up sort of a feedback loop which could reach dangerous levels. So, the distraction could actually once again serve a protective (and evolutionary-based) purpose, by drawing our attention to the present (pain/discomfort) and thereby keeping us from our past-future obsession.
This model avoids the hand-waving involved in Sarno's assertion that by conciously accessing our emotions, we are reaching the subconcious. Sarno admits this is problematic in TDM. With my model, the real key would be to ignore the distraction, thereby rendering it ineffective. Sarno's approach would still work, but for the wrong reason. By gaining knowlege of the essentially harmless nature of the pain/discomfort, it makes it easier for you to ignore it, defeating the distraction.
These are just off-the-cuff thoughts, meant to provoke some constructive comments/criticism--so spare me the "Don't get sidetracked--follow Sarno and ye shall be saved" response  |
| 20 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| HellNY |
Posted - 07/27/2008 : 07:20:25
quote:
Originally posted by Dave
Reconditioning is the key.
In some circles, living in the "moment" may actually be what aids in reconditioning. Essentially by not dwelling on thoughts of "how long will the pain last" (future) and "Ive had this for so long" (past), it may also reduce the anxiety that is associated with these thoughts. This in turn breaks the continual pairing/association between the current pain state and the negative emotional reaction to it. This is part of reconditioning.
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| skizzik |
Posted - 07/25/2008 : 13:56:36
just bein an arse!
couldn't put a smilie on my blackberry, had to wait till I got to a computer. |
| skizzik |
Posted - 07/25/2008 : 12:25:20
"The treatment for TMS is to THINK your way out of it."
-John E. Sarno |
| Dave |
Posted - 07/25/2008 : 09:49:02
How did this thread get re-awakened?
Anyway, since la_kevin has taken the path of many former members in announcing his resignation with great fanfare, I'll take a stab at responding.
STOP OVERTHINKING.
Our intelligence can be an impedement in TMS recovery. Stop worrying about how you should be thinking.
Some have hypothesized that practicing the Zen art of "mindfulness" and "living in the present" is useful in TMS treatment. Perhaps there is some truth to that, for some people. But ultimately, philosophy is not an essential ingredient. Reconditioning is the key.
The more we search for a cure, the more we might (consciously or unconsciously) question the belief in TMS.
I've said it many times ... I believe the most important factor in recovery is to just find a way to live your life without making the pain a central part of it. How you get there is highly personal. |
| skizzik |
Posted - 07/24/2008 : 14:30:52
back at ya,
but Tolle says the painbody can't exist in the now. The realization that youre over thinking and practice being in the now is enough to be present in the now (huh?). Which would eventually disolve the painbody.
If I'm practicing being in the now, contually observing that I have no
control over the future, then I'm in a perpetuation of trying to control tms?
wtf am I supposed to do?
If la kev is gone (hopefully not) maybe someone else could answer? Providing you got thru 3pages to here  |
| la_kevin |
Posted - 07/24/2008 : 06:59:57
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| la_kevin |
Posted - 07/24/2008 : 06:57:57
Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control Control |
| skizzik |
Posted - 07/24/2008 : 05:51:01
quote:
Originally posted by floorten
I'm slowly arriving instead at the conclusion it is distraction from being present in the moment and entirely self-accepting/loving.
I like stanfr's point that there is an evolutionary solution built into the pain, in that if listened to, it must bring you back to physical presence in the moment.
Thoughts?
Greg.
I too am coming to this conclusion since reading PON.
It would fit the profile in either case whether tms is trying to get you out of future or past thought w/ pain in the present,
or
if the pain is trying to distract you from being in the present and wants you to continually worry about the future and keep wondering if you'll ever be out of pain.
the treatment then in either scenario is to practice being in the now over and over till it becomes the norm. |
| armchairlinguist |
Posted - 08/20/2007 : 00:30:51
Yes, Dave put it well -- no particular tool is the "key" for everyone. In my experience on the board, some people find ignoring symptoms works best, while some find that thinking psychological works best. What works best is what reconditions your mind not to give physical credence to what are ultimately psychological symptoms. That's the core goal. For some people, just knowing it is enough, hence the book cures. :-)
BTW, though, mindfulness is not incompatible with thinking psychological, in my mind. Mindfulness is a way of being that can be pratciced even when you're thinking about the past. It just means being with what you are doing and what you are thinking without getting too attached to it.
Mindfulness meditation, in the active sense of allowing thoughts to slide past while continually returning to our main focus, is usually practiced for small amounts of time, so the fact that you can't meditate and think psychological at the same time isn't really a problem.
I think kiwi's point about bodywork methods allowing you to get a corrected body model that helps with the work is well-put and likely accurate.
--
Wherever you go, there you are. |
| stanfr |
Posted - 08/19/2007 : 18:08:03
Alexis, very well put!
Dave, thanks for the response, while i disagree with some of it (when 'over-analyzing' can become part of the problem, you don't need me to 'muddle' the issue!) i definitely endorse your last paragraph. Ive been working on it; comments by webdan and others have been helpful, and i believe its working since ive had a pretty good week. |
| Webdan65 |
Posted - 08/19/2007 : 11:06:59
Bravo Dave. I agree 100% that debating the fine points won't get us closer to relieving our own personal pain. Stick with the fundamentals outlined by Sarno. It works. Why? We'll never know with 100% certainty...but it does. |
| Dave |
Posted - 08/19/2007 : 09:44:21
You are right, this thread should have died but I'm not one to sit back while others beat a dead horse.
In and of itself this thread illustrates one of the typical traps that people fall into: over-analysis.
Is the theory correct? Maybe it's not a distraction but an alternate expression of repressed emotion (something that Sarno originally thought but later refuted)? Maybe physical therapy is helpful since it may relieve the symptoms and allow you to focus on the psychological (something that Sarno originally thought but later refuted)?
One can go on forever proposing alternate hypotheses and explanations for TMS. In the absense of "proof" it is presumptious or even arrogant for anyone to believe that their ideas are more valid than those forumulated by a practicing MD who has seen over ten thousand patients in the span of over 30 years.
Nevertheless, none of it matters. There is absolutely no need to understand the inner workings of TMS in order to get better. Even if Dr. Sarno is completely wrong, it doesn't matter, because the treatment is successful.
There is no "key" ingredient. Everyone is different. Some find that learning to live in the moment and practice "mindfullness" is helpful. Some meditate. Some punch a pillow to get their anger out. Some write in a journal. As kiwi said, these are just tools.
In the end, the goal is to recondition yourself. How you get there is a highly personal process, but the end result is the same: you learn to ignore the symptoms, banish the fear, and recognize at least some of the emotional ingredients that caused the symptoms in the first place. |
| stanfr |
Posted - 08/18/2007 : 20:43:52
Hi Kiwi,
i was gonna let this post die a natural death, but since you resurrected it
I do have a couple thoughts to add:
from what i have read over the past couple months, an underlying theme of those whith success stories is that "ignoring" the symptoms is a key component, if not the key component. While this certainly fits in with the idea of distraction, it certainly doesn't establish that the distraction idea is correct; in fact "ignoring" i would say takes a secondary role in Sarno's treatment--the primary one is "thinking psychological" rather than physical.
This is precisely the reason i posted my thoughts on the subject in the first place, because i would like to know which is the proper "key" ingredient. Many of those who claim to buy Sarno's hypothesis 100% also seem to argue a Tolle-influenced idea that "being in the moment" as in meditation is an effective method--but i have yet to hear how this is consistent with the idea of "thinking psychological", which i would argue requires completely the opposite--it requires pondering the past! Aren't these approaches contradictory?? they sure seem to me to be so. |
| kiwi |
Posted - 08/18/2007 : 19:59:10
Stan,
My thought on this is slightly different.
I think Sarno is right in 1, 2, and 3 but have two additions.
1. For some people, work that lets them sense when their body is working "right" will make it easier for Dr Sarno's prescription to deliver results (Shary was one). It is necessary to understand though that the body work doesn't solve the problem - it just provides your long deceived mind with a model of good body that makes it easier for you to apply Sarno's prescription.
2. I don't think that now, focus etc is key. My observation over many years is that TMS symptoms often disappear when I am right in the moment and highly involved or when I am using concentration meditation. I suspect that in these situations enough of my mind is engaged that (my particular) distraction mechanisms stop or are considered by the neural circuitry generating them to be unneeded.
So my conclusion is:
- believe and apply Sarno's prescription
- meditation and focus provide relief for some but are not the cure
- bodywork that helps you feel what "relaxed with the blood flowing" is may help some to apply the prescription better. They are not curing the problem - they are providing a tool that will let you and your mind work cure the problem. |
| shawnsmith |
Posted - 08/14/2007 : 13:52:44
As usual, Dave is right on. In his taped lecture someone asked Dr. Sarno why everyone doesn't get TMS. With 57 years of medical practice behind him and without blinking an eye Dr. Sarno responded that everybody has something. It is a classic line in his taped lecture. TMS is spreading like wildfire also.
*******
Sarno-ize it!
Read chapter 4 of Dr. Sarno's "The Divided Mind." It's all you need to know in order to recover. |
| Dave |
Posted - 08/14/2007 : 08:56:00
quote:
Originally posted by Penny
[quote]...do you believe ALL people experience TMS, just some more intensely than others? I'm just curious about your thoughts.
I think at one time or another everybody experiences a psychogenic symptom: a tension headache, a backache, stomach upset, etc.
I think TMS is a part of life for many, but I'm sure there are plenty of individuals who don't experience chronic psychogenic symptoms because they have not developed the same bad habits.
For example, "primitive" tribal cultures have a completely different lifestyle than "advanced" cultures. They do not face the same pressures that lead to unconscious emotional conflicts. They live in a tight-knit community with open display of emotion and communication, with extremely strong family bonds. They have a formal rite of passsage at which time a child becomes an adult. They are very physically active. They lead a simpler life, without our culture's compulsion towards financial success and power. I would think the incidence of psychogenic symptoms in such a culture is minimal.
We develop TMS as a distraction from dangerous repressed emotions. It is only logical to assume there are some people that, for whatever reason, do not build up a "pool of rage" and thus there is no need for the distraction.
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| Penny |
Posted - 08/13/2007 : 20:02:30
Thanks for the very interesting questions and for everyone's contribution to this thread.
quote:
Originally posted by drziggles
One hole in the theory of distraction in TMS in my mind involves minor symptoms like acne or allergies. For most people, these problems are a minor annoyance, and not enough to pose any serious distraction from emotional issues. What is their purpose?
I understand what you are thinking here, DrZ, and since I personally seem to experience acne when my other more "painful" TMS sx lessen, I am puzzled by what acne's purpose could be to me as a TMS manifestation. I wonder if it could be subconsciously vanity induced? I wonder if the fluid that blocks and fills my pores would be alternatively used to create pain, had my anxiety or subconscious been overly active. LOL! I wonder if I wonder too much about such things! HAHAHA! 
quote:
Originally posted by drziggles
I will pose a hypothetical question to the die-hards here. Let's say at some point the underlying biological mechanism for TMS is found, and it could be treated with a pill, rather than through the process of education and dealing with underlying repressed emotions. How would that make you feel? Discuss.
I don't know if I'm a die hard, but I have to say this question hit a nerve with me. I guess it's similar to the question of taking anti-depressant RX INSTEAD of going thru therapy to address/correct depression.
I think medication depends on person's quality of life. A year ago I was quite depressed and had intense physical TMS manifestations that often put me in the hospital. (This was before I knew about TMS.) I didn't take anti-depressant but began psychoT instead and have slowly pulled myself out of the hell I was in. Today, one year later, I accept now that I was depressed. At the time, I did not.
KNowing what I know now about depression, if I could have temporarily gone on medicine that would have helped me get thru the darkness, but NOT overly medicate or placate me thru the challenging emotional realizations I gathered in therapy (completely chemically unaltered), then yes, I would have taken anti-depressants. Perhaps I'd say the same for painful manifestations of TMS, but only if therapy was part of the process, as I believe that my success has resulted for me by recognizing and addressing my own patterns and self defeating behaviors. I've been able to make better choices and lead myself to have fewer SX but thru many changes.
To me, taking medication that would end the physical expression of TMS but would create a lifelong dependency on medication seems a bit like drinking alcohol at night to avoid feeling the painful emotions of a failing marriage. It's a bandaid.
Thanks for posing such thought provoking questions.
>|< Penny
"Feeling will get you closer to the truth of who you are than thinking."
~ Eckhart Tolle
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| Penny |
Posted - 08/13/2007 : 17:55:36
quote:
Originally posted by Dave
If I get the occasional twinge in my lower back I no longer run to the chiropractor or fear that I will have debilitating back spasms or that there is something wrong with my spine. If I experience psychogenic symptoms I treat them as a signal that I am avoiding something that is going on in my life, and I try to find the emotions that I am "pushing down" into my body. Most importantly, I just don't let the pain affect my life at all.
Dave, Thanks for the excellent ideas and reminders. Question for you that occured to me as I was reading your post: do you believe ALL people experience TMS, just some more intensely than others? I'm just curious about your thoughts.
>|< Penny |
| Penny |
Posted - 08/13/2007 : 17:51:33
quote:
Originally posted by Webdan65
Shary:
Why does he pre-screen to get 80% success?
My understanding is that Sarno also prescreens to make sure that all organic non-TMS related illnesses are not present (e.g. tumors, blood diseases etc.)
I appreciated your other points, Dan.
>|< Penny |
| HellNY |
Posted - 08/12/2007 : 15:40:30
quote:
Originally posted by wrldtrv
I'm glad to see that healthy doubt and debate on Sarno's theory is still tolerated (by most)here. For the past several months I have checked in only occasionally because I felt no new ground was being covered. With this thread, I can see there are some intelligent, thoughtful, free-thinking individuals (stanfr, shary, floorten, alexis,drziggles...) here, and that is refreshing. Keep ut the good work!
Believe it or not, I consider myself an intelligent, thoughtful, free-thinking indivdual. And it is because of those traits that I can actually see a point of view that in almost any other circumstance I would find unacceptable. Namely, that debate over the validity of the theory could in fact affect the recovery of a patient. Its a radical idea, perhaps farcical to some. But if Sarno's theory is true, then this conlcusion is logical.
And again, I know exactly how that sounds. |
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