| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| truenorth |
Posted - 06/17/2007 : 13:58:06
I need some advice from the bright posters on this board.
I went to see Dr. Sarno over four years ago about my back & foot pain. He confirmed that I had TMS and I began the education program. Even though I have a classic TMS personality and identified with many things in his books, I made no progress. I got sidetracked for two years with serious job issues and did only sporadic Sarno work. I called Dr.Sarno about a year ago and we agreed I needed psychotherapy, which I tried for seven months, again with little success. In fact, maybe because I've gotten closer to the emotional pain (deep sadness), my pain has gotten a lot worse over the last three months. I called Sarno again. He told me my defenses were very strong and recommended a therapist in Englewood, NJ.
I ran into a neighbor in my building a few weeks ago and discovered he was PT.I told him about my situation and he agreed to an evaluation. He had heard of Dr. Sarno, admired his approach and in fact had referred several people to him. He thinks there is a strong psychological factor to all back pain. His exam indicated I had severe lack of motion in my hips and hip flexors (I'm unable to lift my feet up to put socks on and can barely cross either leg).In short, as I suspected, I have pronounced bio-mechanical problems which have only made my pain a lot worse the last few years. I had a spinal fusion in 1978 but was pain free for over twenty years. The PT said I was as rigid as an 85 year-old man and this rigidity in my hips was putting a lot of stress on lower back and sacrum, contributing to my pain. Clearly I have to address this growing rigidity in my body. I began treatment with him to learn some stretching exercises. I'm only a week into it and already have an increase in my leg and hip motion. My pain is about the same. He said it might take six months of doing the stretching to see a reduction in the pain.
I'm 100% sure I have TMS and 100% sure I have functional problems with my back (I'm not refrering to disc or other problems, which I also have). Both things contribute to my pain. I confused about how to reconcile the two things. Any help would be greatly appreciated. |
| 20 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| art |
Posted - 06/22/2007 : 09:38:48
Beth,
That's the advantage of having hung around here for a while. We get to have a sense of what works, and what doesn't. As you say, those who remain stuck in the physical, tend not to get better. Some of us remain stuck in the same place for years. |
| h2oskier25 |
Posted - 06/22/2007 : 09:33:02
quote:
Originally posted by Dave
There is no such thing as "TMS with physical overlay." This is your theory. If you want to believe you know more than a medical doctor with over 30 years clinical experience treating and healing real patients, that's your perrogative.
There is no room in Dr. Sarno's theory for any "physical overlay". If you think that way then it is fundamentally contradictory to TMS.
SO VERY TRUE! The Artist and others on this board are living proof that when you still believe in the physical, you're breaking rule number one of Sarno treatment, which is REPUDIATE ALL PHYSICAL EVIDENCE OF YOUR PAIN.
That sounds so illogical, until we remind ourselves that nobody has a back without anomalies, and yet most people are pain free with the anomalies.
A couple of years ago I found out I had a spina bifida occulta in one of my vertebrae. That just means the bones don't "meet" in one single vertebra. Looks pretty serious on the x-rays. YET I HAVE NEVER HAD BACK PAIN. |
| Dave |
Posted - 06/22/2007 : 07:52:48
quote:
Originally posted by truenorth
You & Shary seem to be the only reasonable people left on this board. The rest believe 99.9% (toothaches? get real) of all ailments are psychogenic and if one doesn't get better with Sarno, simply blame the victim for not trying hard enough or believing deeply enough
This board is about TMS. If you're not interested in this point of view then you have come to the wrong place.
TMS "purists" do not think that every pain is psychogenic. The last thing a TMS "purist" will do is blame the victim for "not trying hard enough". I don't know where you get these ideas. Maybe you are projecting your own feelings.
This board has never been a support forum for chronic pain "victims". It is a place to discuss topics related to TMS, specifically, Dr. Sarno's theories.
Many people who have had success battling TMS have had success only after actually following Dr. Sarno's advice and repudiating the structural diagnosis. He explains very clearly in his books why it is essential to not attribute physical problems to the cause of pain.
There is no such thing as "TMS with physical overlay." This is your theory. If you want to believe you know more than a medical doctor with over 30 years clinical experience treating and healing real patients, that's your perrogative.
There is no room in Dr. Sarno's theory for any "physical overlay". If you think that way then it is fundamentally contradictory to TMS. If you think this is a "purist" view then you probably should find a different forum. |
| art |
Posted - 06/21/2007 : 22:17:33
Hey wrld,
I don't see a whole lot of contradiction. I'm saying that those who accept Sarno's ideas get better. But there's hope for those with doubts as well.....as long as you don't shy away from the hard physical work of challenging the pain. The disadvantage to the second group of course is that there's more of a danger of symptoms returning in different form.
I've been around this forum long enough to have a sense of what seems to work and what doesn't. Wrld, you've been a "doubtist" for the couple of years I've been around, and you seem essentially beset by the same symptoms and difficulties as when you first got here. You're more open to tms it seems to me, but still fall well short of acceptance. You also (ducking my head for another possible icy blast) seem to have the same anger as others in your situation. I don't know, maybe they go together somehow...
My main difficulty with tms orthodoxy is the underlying emotional dynamics as I believe fear is as important as anger. I also understand the impeded blood flow hypothesis is just that, a hypothesis...
But bottom line, if you want to get better, just chuck it all and find a way to believe. Even more important, use your body as fearlessly as possible in the direction of its pain. The first thing doesn't have to be done perfectly (which is an area where I disagree with dave) as long as you do the second thing well...
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| wrldtrv |
Posted - 06/21/2007 : 21:58:31
Art, I'm a little confused. I seem to remember (maybe in some of the old "Alexis" posts, you mentioned your degree of belief in TMS as about 50%, while she, the seeming skeptic, rated herself 80%. Am I remembering correctly? |
| art |
Posted - 06/21/2007 : 19:42:07
quote:
Yes it is exactly what he is saying. There is no evidence that stretching before activity prevents injury. The fact that you feel this way is, as you recognize, part of the fear. You need to try your best to ignore that fear and reassure yourself that jogging is a perfectly normal activity that humans are designed to perform, and that you will not get injured from such a benign activity, and that stretching is not necessary.
I often look at the animal world for clues because they don't know anything other than instincts. Dogs wake up from a nap, and they stretch themselves out. This is normal instinct. Often I feel like stretching my shoulders out after being at a computer keyboard for several hours, so I do so. It's instinctive and it makes me feel good, so I do it.
But rigorous stretching exercise, designed to alleviate pain or avoid injury, is in direct contradiction to the TMS recovery process because it reinforces the false assumption that there are structural problems or that our bodies are delicate and injury prone.
There is a recent study....if interested you can probably find it via google, no time at the moment....that finds stretching prior to running actually increases injury rates...Stretching afterward proved to be a very slight net plus...
I sense a great deal of anger in some who have continued problems, and that's understandable. I find myself agreeing more and more with Dave's committed embrace of Sarno's approach. There's at least one important thing that I differ on, which is that if you challenge the pain faithfully, it to some degree does not matter whether you wholly accept Sarno's ideas. Bottom line, for most of us who find our way here, there are no underlying structural issues. You cannot hurt yourself by continuing to move in the way that causes you pain. Keep moving and you will almost inevitably get better in my opinion
Shary, no doubt I'm letting myself in for an icy blast, but it's ok. I can take it...You're one in whom I sense a great deal of anger...Are you aware of that in yourself? If so, do you think it mught have some bearing on your situation? If not, do you think it might be worth exploring?
It seems to me not a coincidence that those who acccept Dr Sarno's ideas almost always get better. Those who do not often have problems.. |
| truenorth |
Posted - 06/21/2007 : 19:12:30
Miehnesor,
Thanks for the encourgaing words. I suspect you're right. Sarno did tell me a couple of weeks ago that my defenses were very strong. My therapist said I have more sadness than anything. Maybe. I think it might be more rage than sadness.
Thanks again. Your post has given me new hope. |
| miehnesor |
Posted - 06/21/2007 : 18:26:15
True- I can relate to working on the TMS stuff and not getting better at all. In fact for me I had to work a long time, years in fact, before I finally realized what was going on. Although I did feel some profound sadness it wasn't until I got in tough with the repressed rage that I was able to make progress. Sometimes our defences are incredibly strong and it can be difficult to crack into the feelings that lie beneath.
I hope you don't give up on Dr Sarno's approach as I suspect that it is the way out for you. |
| truenorth |
Posted - 06/21/2007 : 16:38:53
h2,
I know my posts and my experiences are discouranging to other posters (I'm not a newbie-I've been visiting for over three years but rarely post). I did have a week of quasi-improvement in February, but have gotten worse since then. I truly believe my problem is psychogenic with a physical overlay. I know the purists on this board are aghast at that but not everything is pure TMS. I have focused greatly on the psychological in therapy and on my own and may be getting closer to the repressed feelings. |
| h2oskier25 |
Posted - 06/21/2007 : 15:47:47
True,
I'm SO sorry you feel that way, about the system failing you. I'm even sorrier for the newbies who come on here looking for a little assurance.
So, through all the journaling and all the work, you never felt a drop better?
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| truenorth |
Posted - 06/21/2007 : 12:31:40
Wurstsalat,
You & Shary seem to be the only reasonable people left on this board. The rest believe 99.9% (toothaches? get real) of all ailments are psychogenic and if one doesn't get better with Sarno, simply blame the victim for not trying hard enough or believing deeply enough |
| wurstsalat |
Posted - 06/21/2007 : 11:00:55
Faith healing, as it sometimes appears to be with Sarnoists, is a bit of a two sided blade. I dont think you have to be a fundamentalist to be successful, that doesnt make sense to me, it would be in stark contrast to many comments from Sarno in his books where he sais we dont have to change our personalities, its more a matter of really believing in the connection. And everybody, just like me, will be disappointed from time to time, and some people just wont have TMS. TMS is a great concept and cure for many, but not everybody who has back pain has TMS.
I find it interesting that in Sarnos first book he mentions that slipped discs are NOT the cause of backpain, while in his more recent work he sais "rarely are the source of pain/may initially cause pain".
I think it is perfectly possible to have two layers here. Slipped disc pain and TMS on top of it because once has a slipped disc and the mind is clever to position TMS right next to it. I got rid of my TMS pain and what was left is mild, occasional, very rare pain that might or might not be coming from my physical abnormality.
I dont think one has to believe that the physical abnormality is not responsible for some issues, one just should not believe that the pain and suffering one is going through is due to the disc alone. At the end of the day having a slipped disc is harmless but might hurt from time to time, just like one gets a headache from time to time or a cold. I think its a almost safe bet that anybody with a physical abnormality can benefit from TMS treatment. But whether everybody will get 100% pain free .... i dont think that is necessary to validate TMS ...
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| truenorth |
Posted - 06/21/2007 : 10:24:25
Armchair,
Thanks for the advice. I guess I'm not making myself clear. I've been at the Sarno work for over four years. I did NOT take a four-year break.
I have been working very hard the last twelve months, including seven months with a Sarno therapist. During this time, I did everything, and more, that Dr. Sarno requires of a patient. I read, journaled (over 300 pages), tried physically to release my anger, probed my past, tried to feel things-EVERTHING (including believing 100@ in the TMS diagnosis) and I've not getting better. Four years is a very long time. Eventually, doubt creeps in (as well as growing muscle tension and rigidity).
My dilemna is a simple one: After so many years of TMS work, maybe I have something other that TMS. And please, dont' tell me I have to believe harder in the diagnosis. I did for years and got nowhere.
The program has failed me, not the other way around. |
| armchairlinguist |
Posted - 06/20/2007 : 23:31:59
When I first encountered Sarno's work, I concluded that my pain was a combination of TMS and physical factors (chronic overuse). Guess what? I didn't get any better for six months after that, while I kept believing that. It wasn't until I committed that anything happened.
Physically, my arms were somewhat weak after disuse from avoidance due to "RSI" pain, and I was told by a chiropractor I had extremely limited ROM in my neck. I treated with Sarno methods and actually stopped all the stretches and massage I had done. My limited ROM improved and my arms got gradually stronger with normal use.
If your stiffness is caused by TMS it's unlikely that there are any serious underlying physical issues. The body, released from maintaining tightness and pain as a distraction, will let go. If you feel like stretching, that doesn't contradict Sarno, but the rigorous program does. As for timing, you yourself mentioned that you have not really been doing the work for four years because you got sidetracked. Therapy takes time to work as well, separate from the Sarno work.
I don't know if you have TMS or not but it sure sounds like it. If you do, you ultimately need to believe that your body is a strong and adaptable machine that will do what you want as you gradually resume activity, and going to a special guy to stretch you out undermines that belief.
--
Wherever you go, there you are. |
| stanfr |
Posted - 06/20/2007 : 18:27:48
I agree with you to a point, Dave. But obviously if i spend months stretching so that i can bend my leg behind my neck (or whatever) and then i bend my leg behind my neck--i wont get injured! If i dont do the stretchintg, and try the same stunt--i will! So, stretching can most definitely prevent injury. The problem i see with Truenorth's post is he is unable to separate the two concepts in his mind. He began his initial post asking for a "reconciliation", when there is no reconciliation! If he is so convinced that there are both physical and emotional basis for his pain, what needs to be reconciled?? Just treat the two concurrently and don't worry about it. The only possible reason i see for him asking his initial question is that he infact at some level doubts the emotional underlying cause, and is looking for an "out". That's the way i see it, as someone who has dealt with the same issues myself for decades. So, in that respect, i agree with your advice to him. |
| Dave |
Posted - 06/20/2007 : 10:38:23
quote:
Originally posted by Lizzie
Dave
I see the logic of your Sarno "purist" views and wanted to ask if you did stretches before exercise? I have recently plucked up the courage to start jogging, but will not attempt it without lots of stretches first, partly because I think I am bound to get injured if I don't. I think this is part of my fear issues. I do not trust my body at some levels. I also for instance always have a hot shower to warm up my muscles at the start of each day. so far when running I have only sufferd the mild stiffness pain of using muscles in a new way that you'd expect after exercising. My point is, are these stretches sensibleor is Sarno saying all stretching of this kind done to prevent injury during sport, is not necessary?
Yes it is exactly what he is saying. There is no evidence that stretching before activity prevents injury. The fact that you feel this way is, as you recognize, part of the fear. You need to try your best to ignore that fear and reassure yourself that jogging is a perfectly normal activity that humans are designed to perform, and that you will not get injured from such a benign activity, and that stretching is not necessary.
I often look at the animal world for clues because they don't know anything other than instincts. Dogs wake up from a nap, and they stretch themselves out. This is normal instinct. Often I feel like stretching my shoulders out after being at a computer keyboard for several hours, so I do so. It's instinctive and it makes me feel good, so I do it.
But rigorous stretching exercise, designed to alleviate pain or avoid injury, is in direct contradiction to the TMS recovery process because it reinforces the false assumption that there are structural problems or that our bodies are delicate and injury prone. |
| stanfr |
Posted - 06/20/2007 : 06:05:25
I can see both points of view here, since im not a Sarno 'purist'. Sarno has nothing against stretching, in fact i believe ive seen him mention the benefits of physical therapy in his writings somewhere. The point is the reason and mindset in how and when it's done. I know where Dave is coming from, because i can sense in TrueN's responses his repudiation of the emotional basis, as much as he continues to deny it. I think you should be VERY specific as to what it is you think is causing "PAIN", just as Hillary requested. It's not enough to say stifness. Stifness does not cause pain per se, it merely inhibits movement. I think you'd have to be completely imobile for quite some time for true muscle atrophy or other physical problem to occur. In what context does "stifness" cause pain? Since i haven't heard a good explanation from TrueN, i have to agree with Dave on this. "Rigidity putting stress on lower back/sacrum" is classic orthopedic/chiropractic/PT talk, in short PHYSICAL/STRUCTURAL but without any specific scientific basis. It's the same talk i heard over and over from years of chiropractic/PT?physicians/surgeons. There's a fine line here, but im just saying from the TONE of True's initial post he has fallen into the trap of believeing the structural-basis, which most definitely is contrary to Sarno's approach. Just the way i see it. |
| Lizzie |
Posted - 06/20/2007 : 03:00:39
Dave
I see the logic of your Sarno "purist" views and wanted to ask if you did stretches before exercise? I have recently plucked up the courage to start jogging, but will not attempt it without lots of stretches first, partly because I think I am bound to get injured if I don't. I think this is part of my fear issues. I do not trust my body at some levels. I also for instance always have a hot shower to warm up my muscles at the start of each day. so far when running I have only sufferd the mild stiffness pain of using muscles in a new way that you'd expect after exercising. My point is, are these stretches sensibleor is Sarno saying all stretching of this kind done to prevent injury during sport, is not necessary?
Lizzie
Lizzie |
| truenorth |
Posted - 06/19/2007 : 11:59:58
Sorry, duplicate post |
| Penny |
Posted - 06/19/2007 : 11:56:14
TrueNorth, I want to add to what I wrote and explain why I went off on a seeming tangent: While I was Dxed with fibromyalgia doctors were thinking I had MS or Lupus. I was convinced I did too, but such Dxes are not always 1+1= disease. (I'm glad for myself, otherwise I would have been erroneously Dxed.) FMS is a symptom of MS and Lupus. For 2 years I was a die-hard believer that I had lupus, although I was never definitively diagnosed. I many other sx too, but as soon as I learned about TMS I stopped thinking "disease" and "Sx" and committed instead to drilling down emotionally. Even today, once in a while I will think for a moment that I really have some unDxed disease, but I let the thought pass and continue to believe in TMS. I do not have a disease, just harmless but equally painful TMS.
Our brains are so screwy ... they can make us believe or disbelieve whatever the unconscious perceives serves us.
>|< Penny
"Oz never did give nothing to the Tinman that he didn't already have."
song lyric, America |
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