| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| dwinsor52 |
Posted - 06/11/2007 : 05:07:48
I will try to be as succinct as possible. Total TMS personality. Diagnosed with Fibro 20 years ago and put on meds to sleep, even though at the time I had no trouble sleeping. Have been dependent on something to sleep for all this time, even tiny dose of Remeron. Then put on all kinds of meds to cope with pain. Found Sarno in 1997. Also saw Marc Sopher several times. Couldn't really "get it" for years. Finally became pain free about 4 years ago with one or two relapses of a couple of months. Very empowered about TMS success so slowly tapered off meds which at the time were Cymbalta and Remeron. Finally off all meds last Xmas for about a month but got scared so went back on both meds. Guess what - pain came back full force. I believe unconscious self imposed pressure, rage at self for giving in, etc. So have been trying to taper again. Pain much better because my brain is focused on getting off meds and now anxiety is serving as a great equivalent. I should say, for anyone out there on meds who needs them, that I do NOT have a psych diagnosis and I have even had several psychiatrists tell me that I have an addictive relationship to all medications. Have been in AA 30 years. Just tried NA yesterday to try to get support to get off last tiny amounts of antidepressants. All I can say is, where I live, mostly everyone in both 12 step programs are ON meds. I have read extensively about antidepressants and their overuse, and am very aware of their placebo effect. The parallels with most TMS treatment are so obvious. It's not that I don't get the equivalency that Sarno talks about, or the message that the pharmaceutical industry has successfully put out there. I see cymbalta ads and I am disgusted. But, as both a TMS person and addict, I need support to overcome both aspects of my particular manifestations of TMS - when I don't have the physical I have the anxiety and fear. Believe me, I support meds for those who need them, and have seen real depression in people. But in my case, I know I am a classic TMS prone personality. Just like I would never again feel comfortable trying to find a physical cause for pain since I know better, I believe I know too much now to accept taking meds. I just get so afraid trying to get off them that I can't get to my goal. Has anyone out there successfully tapered off and stayed off, using Sarno's techniques? I would love to hear from you.
Debby |
| 20 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Melina D. |
Posted - 06/20/2007 : 19:01:29
Thanks for the information, guys. I'm sure I'll be referring to it the next time I taper off these drugs, as I'm determined to do. |
| Littlebird |
Posted - 06/20/2007 : 15:02:16
There is a good book about weaning off of antidepressants, written by a clinical instructor in psychiatry at Harvard Medical School, Dr. Joseph Glenmullen. The title is "The Antidepressant Solution." He is not against antidepressants, but he points out that many people are given these meds by family doctors who don't really know that much about the meds and don't give people accurate advice about their use and how to stop taking them.
The key strategy is to taper carefully. For some people, when you get down to a small dose, then you need to slow the taper--for example, if you've been reducing your dose by 10 mg. per week, you may need to slow the reduction down to 5 mg. per week as you get close to the end. It can take 6 weeks or longer--sometimes much longer in a person who is hypersensitive to the changes--to get off a med. Some people take months to successfully taper without withdrawal symptoms.
One of the most common misconceptions among family doctors, according to the book, is that withdrawal symptoms and "rebound" depressive symptoms indicate that you still need the medication. Of course, the author recommends doing the tapering under medical supervision, but some doctors are just uninformed about what to expect when a patient goes off the med.
I have found that my brain has learned to mimic withdrawal symptoms and sometimes uses them in a TMS fashion. It's highly annoying to me to have these come-and-go symptoms that feel just like medication withdrawal! Sometimes it's a real fight to get my brain to stop doing it.
I also really like Floorten's comments about tapering off by spreading out the time between doses and about not allowing depression to become part of your identity. Thanks for posting that, Greg!
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| carbar |
Posted - 06/20/2007 : 12:33:58
quote:
Originally posted by floorten
And one final tip... don't associate depression with your identity in any way. See it as an imposter and see the real you as the happy, in-control person I'm sure you've been once in the past. Identifying with depression gives it free reign to mess with your mind.
Thanks floor ten,
This is a great point. We get so overwhelmed by TMS symptoms that they seem to become all there is to life, rather than symptoms that afect normal life. For me, this was particularly true because I came down with TMS when I was 17. It's been over a year since I found out about TMS, I'm symptom-free and practicing yoga and meditation everyday to stay sane. I'm finally experiencing what "normal" adult life is like for the first time. It's amazing! Still, I do feel those depression gremlins lurching about as I'm transitioning to summer and a new apartment so my routine of daily mediation has become more sporadic.
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| floorten |
Posted - 06/20/2007 : 08:12:58
Hi Melissa,
Remember the withdrawl symptoms are real, but your ego may well use them as another place to hide TMS symptoms as well. It will quite possibly overlay extra pain on top of the physical withdrawl symptoms, cause it knows that you won't question it.
Therefore the tapering off process, done slowly, is as much about convincing yourself that you DONT NEED the drugs, as it is about minimising the withdrawl effects. Armed with the belief that you don't need the drug and that such small doses don't have the power to control you, you will be experiencing only the bare minimum of withdrawl effects.
Stretching out time between doses was key for me, because it trains you to go longer and longer on no dose. In this way you build up stamina and teach yourself that you can live without the pills.
And one final tip... don't associate depression with your identity in any way. See it as an imposter and see the real you as the happy, in-control person I'm sure you've been once in the past. Identifying with depression gives it free reign to mess with your mind.
Take it easy,
Greg.
--
"What the Thinker thinks, the Prover proves."
Robert Anton Wilson |
| Melina D. |
Posted - 06/20/2007 : 06:16:10
I've been lurking here regularly for about 2 years, and have found this forum extremely helpful in dealing with my TMS. I just had to comment today on this particular issue of getting off antidepressants.
I've been on a low dose of a particular antidepressant for years,and have been trying to get off it for three. My doctor is no help. When I tell her I don't need it because I'm not depressed, but that the withdrawal is dreadful, she says,"That's probably because you need it."
I'm going to try the modified tapering suggestion mention here, and see if that helps me. Meanwhile, my main point is that although I'm a big believer in Sarno and TMS, I don't think our inability to easily come off these drugs is necessarily related. I think it's a serious problem resulting from changes in our brain chemistry after years of using a particular drug. Having said that, any help I can get here to ease the withdrawal using Sarno-type thinking would be welcome. |
| floorten |
Posted - 06/20/2007 : 04:03:26
Penny, I think you might be getting mixed up with "Presence of a Great Mystery". There's virtually nothing on painbody in this particular recording.
--
"What the Thinker thinks, the Prover proves."
Robert Anton Wilson |
| floorten |
Posted - 06/18/2007 : 16:40:50
Yup - another vote for A New Earth and Tolle in general from me!!
A New Earth is substantially more comprehensive than Power of Now, though it might be wise to read the simpler PoN first. Certainly not a rehash of the same ideas - Tolle expands on many of his previous concepts and fills in many gaps and trouble spots with wisdom.
If you're a real Tolle fan, you might be interested in A Course In Miracles, from which Tolle clearly learnt (and quotes) a lot. It's a really strange book, and will confuse most, but the chapters on the tricks of the Ego are brilliant, and predated Tolle by a decade or two.
--
"What the Thinker thinks, the Prover proves."
Robert Anton Wilson |
| Penny |
Posted - 06/17/2007 : 12:28:27
I have found Tolle's works have complemented Sarno and TMS therapies and helped me tremendously.
Here is a link to a list of ET silent groups around the world. Most groups are free, and the silent format is profound and unusual.
http://www.eckharttolle.com/home.php?section=groupsteachers&show=GROUP%20and%20TEACHERS%20-%20Local%20Groups
For those not familiar with Eckhart Tolle, I agree with Wavy ... _The New Earth_ would be a great book to start with. If you prefer audio you could get "In the Presence of a Great Mystery". This 3 CD set discusses physical pain (ET calls it "painbody").
>|< Penny
"Oz never did give nothing to the Tinman that he didn't already have." song lyric, America |
| Wavy Soul |
Posted - 06/17/2007 : 05:34:42
"A New Earth" may be better than PON, I think.
xx
Love is the answer, whatever the question |
| Paul |
Posted - 06/16/2007 : 12:01:23
altherunner,
I agree with you, Tolle is great. I think that is so great you got rid of all of those things...you must have been able to make the right "shift" in your thinking and perception about life.
Ever read any of Pema Chodron's books? She is fantastic as well.
Is "A New Earth" any better or different from "The Power of Now"? |
| altherunner |
Posted - 06/16/2007 : 09:39:29
Reading Eckhart Tolle really did away with fear and anxiety for me.
Within 2 years, my addictions faded away on their own.(alcohol,caffeine, pills sometimes) His books are at most libraries,
or his latest, A New Earth is out in paperback. Maybe, the addictions were self - medication for the fear, anxiety. |
| floorten |
Posted - 06/14/2007 : 15:16:47
Hey there,
My doctor tried treating my TMS headaches with antidepressants and got me hooked on Paxil for a few years, so I know what you're going through.
Tapering off is the key, as you know, but it's also important to train yourself in stretching the time between doses too. Try taking your regular dose daily, then try stretching it out to a day and a half, every other day, every three days... etc.
When you reach the three day gap point, then step down one more notch on the dose, and go back to daily doses, starting again trying to stretch the time between doses. It's like going through gears on a car. Do this over a few months and aim to eventually be just taking a couple of milligrams every three days. From there you can go cold turkey.
I've found this to be much more effective in quitting SSRI's than just reducing the dose, which is still a pretty harsh way to go.
Watch out for your beliefs too. Believing that you "need" the drug to keep you stable will result in a stronger withdrawl effect and more fear when you finally do stop, so keep reassuring yourself that you'll be fine without the drug. Your gradual progress in tapering doses should be proof of this.
Regarding AA... hope you don't think I'm rude, but if you've been in it for 30 years, maybe it's not the right framework for you. I personally find twelve step programs to be an poor solution, because they require you to view yourself as a victim who is helpless against the affliction. This to me seems to be the opposite of taking responsibility for your own mind and the life that results from your beliefs. God doesn't just strike people down randomly with random TMS-equivalent diseases. They all come from beliefs and choices we make with our minds.
Take it easy and hope you make good progress with the recovery/quitting.
--
"What the Thinker thinks, the Prover proves."
Robert Anton Wilson |
| Scottydog |
Posted - 06/12/2007 : 00:37:47
D, H20,
Well I take the benzos occasionally so don't get hooked.
In future you can use me as an example of someone who takes strong drugs without getting depression or whatever
D,I was meaning you should continue on the meds whilst improving other aspects in your life. I like straight talking myself so take the same tack with others, sorry if you are offended.
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| dwinsor52 |
Posted - 06/11/2007 : 17:55:43
Thank you Beth. Yes, I can also say that I know ALL about Big Pharma. They didn't tell anyone that antidepressants are hard to withdraw from!!! And now they have to call it disontinuation syndrome instead of withdrawal!!!!!!!
Yes, I signed up for a very athletic yoga class that I had taken a few years ago, and just got my bike tires filled with air. I am on my way out now with the dogs. Exercise is a proven antidepressant.
I am also reading David Burns new book on Panic and Anxiety. He has a very powerful chapter on the myth of antidepressant effectiveness and how cognitive behavioral therapy is much more successful. I have been using his techniques to conquer this TMS pain relapse. It's really about thinking ACCURATELY about your pain, your tendencies, etc.
Being a total TMS personality, I knew as soon as Dr. Sarno said it, that I have anxiety and depression as an equivalent. That being said, I do know some depressed people who have really needed meds. I am just so grateful that I know that I am just a walking TMS symptom imperative.
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| h2oskier25 |
Posted - 06/11/2007 : 15:24:28
quote:
Originally posted by Scottydog
OK benzodiazepan isn't exactly good for you but if there were nasty side effects the Pharma companies would have been seriously sued by now.
There is no such thing as a Pharma without a side effect. I can't believe you said that !
Getting off antidepressants is important for anybody who wants to run their own life.
Deb, I'm glad to see you are showing some true courage in deciding you're going to get off of them.
Exercise keeps me sane, but I'm not glibly suggesting it will cure your issues.
Regards,
Beth |
| dwinsor52 |
Posted - 06/11/2007 : 15:15:13
I think it's highly inappropriate for someone who can handle benzos to basically tell someone it's not a big deal. I can tell you for a fact that benzos are a very big deal. I had to go to a treatment center to get off a dose that didn't even show up in my bloodstream. What they told me there was that benzo withdrawal is the worst known to man, and that benzos cause depression. That was my experience. If you are lucky enough to not get hooked, more power to you. But these are HIGHLY addictive drugs. I would suggest reading what David Burns, a foremost authority on anxiety, has to say about them. |
| Scottydog |
Posted - 06/11/2007 : 11:47:40
Hi D,
I have sleeping pills prescribed but keep them for emergency times only but until recently they were a real issue for me, I was ashamed to be such a failure (couldn't get through life without this medication), embarrassed (might be seen as a junky / failure , needing this prop), kept them hidden so that I never had to explain them to anyone. Now, after 2 and a bit years working on my TMS (insomnia) I realise it doesn't matter. OK benzodiazepan isn't exactly good for you but if there were nasty side effects the Pharma companies would have been seriously sued by now. I have a (small) sleep problem, so does half the western world, who cares, I have a great life.
Only you feel that taking meds is an issue. Forget about it and find other better things in your life to concentrate on.
I don't mean to trivialise your worries, just giving my take on the issue.
Anne
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| dwinsor52 |
Posted - 06/11/2007 : 11:17:49
It kind of reminds me of when I decided to focus ONLY on TMS principles to heal my pain. Even after I saw Dr. Sarno, I had to continue trying other ways to get pain relief, despite what I knew inside my heart and head. I just wasn't ready. So for years it was like on the one hand, I knew he was right, but on the other I just HAD to be as comfortable as possible. So I grabbed for meds and various treatments. I have been the same about antidepressants. I have a lot of information in my head, but I often run to a "quick fix" because the discomfort feels too great at the time. And then I am not getting any traction.
I believe that all my years on various antidepressants, drugs like neurontin and klonopin for "fibro", had a very deleterious effect and most of all, led me into a kind of "learned helplessness." So I am almost at the end of tapering and just need to make the leap.
Debby |
| Shary |
Posted - 06/11/2007 : 08:25:36
Hi Debby,
You might also try reading Rapid Recovery from Back and Neck Pain, by Fred Amir. I suggest this book because Mr. Amir offers some excellent suggestions for dealing with anger- and anxiety-induced pain as well as fear caused by conditioning.
Over the past year I've taken numerous prescription pain relievers and muscle relaxants. I was forced to get off of them when I started having bleeding from the GI tract. I was scared silly, but I got off all the meds pretty much cold turkey, and my plumbing healed. And you know what else? I found out that they really weren't helping as much as I thought they were. I realized they were causing more problems than they were solving. Now, even though I've been riding out a couple of bad weeks with a frozen shoulder, I only take an occasional Tylenol or Advil, but nothing on a regular basis.
Dangerous drugs are legally dispensed in this country with such a cavalier attitude that it's truly frightening. I've known a number of people who experienced such severe physical and emotional side effects from Cymbalta that it wouldn't surprise me if it is eventually yanked off the market.
Fred Amir's book shows how to set goals step by step that might work well in your case. Then try to find natural alternatives for your meds as you taper off. For instance, melatonin is an excellent sleep aid if you need one. It's cheap, available OTC, doesn't leave you with a hangover the next day, and as far as I know there aren't any bad side effects when used appropriately. Also, exercise is a great natural cure for mild clinical depression. Try taking a Tai Chi or Qi-Gong class. These are both a type of moving meditation that many hospitals offer either free of charge or for just a few bucks a session.
We TMS-ers tend to be so fear oriented that it's easier to do nothing rather than to bite the bullet and jump into the Great Unknown, even on our own behalf. I know this very well. I have had to force myself more than once to proceed when I really, REALLY didn't want to. So my advice would be, push the edge of the envelope, and stop concentrating on all the crutches (i.e., being TMS-prone, addictive personality, medication, etc.) Meanwhile, understand that you'll have ups and downs for a while--maybe for quite a while. But once you understand that your healing is up to YOU and your own determination--not your doctors, your pharmacist or your various support groups--you will continue to get better! |
| Penny |
Posted - 06/11/2007 : 08:10:25
Hi Debby,
I'm so sorry to read about what you are going thru. If you go off the meds, what do you think is the worst thing that can happen to you?
I've not been in your shoes with meds as every time I tried to use them I had bizarro reactions (probably TMS induced). During this time the bottom of my world fell out. I started feeling a lot of things that I had disconnected from for years. It was very difficult but it was only after this happened that I was able to build back up to wellness; both physical and mental. I had FMS and sleep problems too which medicine seemed to make worse.
Hang in there, Debby! I'm sure others will provide good ideas for you.
>|< Penny
"Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain."
The Great and Powerful Oz |
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