| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Penny |
Posted - 04/23/2007 : 17:09:20
Ok ... I've been reading the posts about "classic narcissism" and parents. Forgive my ignorance, but does someone have a good description of what this is ... or a Web site? What causes this?
Also, if we were raised by narcissistic parents, how do we avoid becoming one ourself? One of my greatest fears is that my children will grow to have the same emotional limitations I have instilled in me ... how do we stop this from perpetuating in them? I NEVER want my children to feel that I don't empathize with them--or God forbid--that I really don't value their personal experience or suffering. This idea really terrifies me! I mean, more devastating than my personal battle thru TMS would be to watch my children become pain-ridden hypochondriacs.
>|< Penny
Non illigitamus carborundum. |
| 8 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| miehnesor |
Posted - 06/24/2007 : 21:33:52
Penny- The subject of narcissism in parents is one that I, and my wife as well, have been exploring over the last couple of months. There are two books that are therapist recommended that really focus on the subject that I think you, and others, would be interested in. The first book, which is a complete work on the subject, is called "Why is it always about you?: The seven deadly sins of narcissism" by Sandy Hotchkiss. The second book is called "Trapped in the Mirror: Adult children of narcissists in their struggle for self" by Elan Golomb.
Regarding the first book the seven deadly sins are: Shamelessness, magical thinking, arrogance, envy, entitlement, exploitation and bad boundaries. She explains how narcissism is set up in very young children, between the age of 10 months and 18 months. She also describes strategies for how to interact with narcissists that keep them feeling ok and at the same time keeping yourself from becoming emotionally wrapped up and hurt.
Expanding on her ideas of the origin of narcissism the author explains that starting at about 10 months the developing child is still bonded to the primary care giver, usually mother, and the child is unaware of his powerlessness in the world. As the child matures he comes to see the reality of his situation that he isn't so powerful and that he is actually a separate entity from the primary caregiver. The parent has the tough responsibility of easing the child into a more realistic view of himself in the grand scheme of things and teaching him that he can't have everything he wants but doing it in a way that minimizes shame. The child realization that he is separate from mother is experienced as distressing and yes even shameful. The child is really not capable, in this period of his development of processing the emotion of shame. Therefore the parent needs to help the child cope with experiences of shame with warmth and emotional nutrients. Additionally there may be other real life situations where shame could be experienced by the child.
To give an example of this suppose that a toddler comes up to his younger sibling and starts hitting him. The mother quickly jumps in to stop it and may say things like "you must not hit your brother". The child may interpret the response of the mother as shaming. The important thing is for the mother to afterwards provide some nurturing to the child to help him understand that he is not basically bad but that his particular behavior is not ok. So the mother helps the child handle the situation so the child is not left trying to cope with overwhelming feelings.
Now if the mother does not understand that the child needs this help then the child has to deal with the shame alone. This is too much for the child and he resorts to fantasies to cover up the shame. Narcissism is then a cover up for overwhelming feelings of shame and worthlessness.
I guess that was rather long winded but I just found it so interesting to understand where this destructive personality disorder comes from.
Hotchkiss also of course explains the seven deadly sins and how you can deal with each one of them through: 1)-knowing yourself, 2)- embracing reality, 3)- setting boundaries, and cultivating reciprocal relationships.
The second book focuses more closely on the effect of narcissism on children, and the effect is quite devastating. Just take a look at the thread "In the name of Love" for an example of the pain narcissistic parents have on their children, many of which become TMSers. I'm not done with this second book and it's example case studies are quite extreme but it gives you a lot of insight into the distored sense of reality children of narcissists grow up with. It can be quite a herculean struggle to find the real self in such an environment. Children of narcissists often need therapy to untangle this mess and become aware of the parental introject that if not identified and understood as abnormal will destroy the adult life of the child of a narcissist.
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| shawnsmith |
Posted - 04/26/2007 : 06:12:17
quote:
Originally posted by Penny
My mother used to have a 5-min rule about negative emotions: She would allow herself to get upset for 5 mins, watch the clock, then when the time was up, she would stop and get on with making dinner, or get onto the next thing. She expected my bro and I to do the same.
Whew, that is one mouthful of a revelation there! You are expected to turn your feelings on and off at someone else's will and just move on like the incident did not happen. Talk about a recipe for repression. All those annoyances and anger enducing incidents built up over the course of your life but you are expected to bottle them all up inside of you and not express your feelings except for a few minutes. The thing is, all those annoyances and anger enducing incidents never really go away and stay stored in your body (Read Molecules of Emotions by Candice Pert who Dr. Sarno highly praises) and over time threatens to resurface into consciousness. This is the stuff that TMS is made of for sure.
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Sarno-ize it!
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| armchairlinguist |
Posted - 04/25/2007 : 22:22:13
I second 2scoops recommendation. I got the book from the library and it's brilliant.
I really feel the same, that I never learned how to properly process emotions and situations because my parents didn't teach me. I just got into this with my therapist today and realized that that's partly why I feel so effing lost all the time in relationships. Just have no idea how to do it.
Bradshaw and Alice Miller both think that the best way to avoid passing on issues to your kids is to process your inner child's pain in therapy so that your original grief is dealt with and your and original needs do not have to be met through your children. I know from other threads that you are working on this, and you're aware of the issues, so between the two you are better positioned than 99% of people to parent in a healthy way.
My parents didn't start working on their issues until I was in high school and didn't get separated until I was in grad school, and you know what? I damn well wish they would have woken the heck up before it was too late for me. Even if they had had to get separated sooner, I wish they would have woken up to their own emotions and their own issues and dealt with them while there was still time for them to be emotinally accepting parents. Because now it's just too damn late. So even if you end up causing your kids some turmoil at this time in their lives, they will almost certainly be better off in the long run. So go for it, do whatever you can for yourself and for them.
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Wherever you go, there you are. |
| 2scoops |
Posted - 04/24/2007 : 13:22:54
Penny the best answer I got from this was in John Bradshaw's Healing the Shame That Binds You. I really believe he knows his stuff on repressed emotions and according to him, shame would be at the core of narcissism. Like it's a generational thing. You could probably get the book at the library. |
| Shary |
Posted - 04/23/2007 : 21:41:26
Penny,
Narcissism is a personality disorder. Who knows why it occurs? It's probably hardwired into certain people, either from birth or because of some traumatic event during formative years. Treatment is available, but from what I've heard it isn't very effective. Also, PD can be a serious mental problem so I wouldn't be too quick to label. Some people just make cold, distant parents, particularly if that's the way they were raised. Cultural differences as well as the era in which a male child grew up seems to have a lot to do with his ability or inability to relate to children of his own.
Maybe your best option is to put aside the blame game, which is only going to make you feel worse. Try to find a way to accept your parents as they are, warts and all. Sure, they could have done better, but maybe they did the best they could. Try some therapy if you haven't already done so. You need to make peace with the past, since you can't change it, and you need to develop some faith in your own parenting skills. Best of luck. |
| Kristin |
Posted - 04/23/2007 : 19:30:37
Having experienced the emotional wisdom of my own children. I can appreciate the catharsis that you experienced. I think you have the capacity to consciously undo your more repressive upbringing. It just takes compassionate pointed effort. We owe ourselves so much compassion. We owe our inner child that. It helps us be better parents. I can so easily relate to feeling like accepting all the personal responsibility on oneself. I for one am way too hard on myself as a result of this. That little fact is undermining and damaging to my relationships. I can hide it no longer.
I also felt that I was never empathized with and that my parents had no clue to what we now call e.i. (emotional intelligence). It affects my everyday living so profoundly, especially in parenting. I had another lesson just yesterday. I was acting like the teenager, not my daughter! Everyone had to leave the table because I was being difficult. My parents didn't teach me healthy problem solving. I have so much to learn.
My best wishes and congratulations for feeling strong enough to confront your father.
p.s. I think I am secretely jealous of my own children's high e.i quotients. I hope that my actions never squelch that in them, yet, at the same time preserving the precious parent/child boundaries. |
| Penny |
Posted - 04/23/2007 : 18:23:19
I edited this ... I was stream of conscious typing and it was TOO long.
Wow! Thanks Art. I really appreciate your feedback. Narcissism explains so much about my father, it's almost unbelieveable. After 36 years (that's my age) I could find something out about him that is so incredibly stereotypical and true. I always excused my dad as being "unconventional" or "eccentric", not a bloody self-absorbed arrogant beligerant narcissist. Why do people become naricissistic? What is imposed on them? Gosh, this is so messed up! I realize, my dad has never hurt for me. He never developed the capacity for empathy outside his experience. It's so tragic.
I think my Dad loves me in his own peculiar way. But I'm so bloody messed up b/c my parents never taught me how to cope or process ugly emotions. My mother used to have a 5-min rule about negative emotions: She would allow herself to get upset for 5 mins, watch the clock, then when the time was up, she would stop and get on with making dinner, or get onto the next thing. She expected my bro and I to do the same.
It is so hard to blame them. I feel so f-ing trite ... blaming my parents for how messed up I am. I hate this. I believe in accountability. I believe in self responsibility. I mean ... why should I feel better by blaming them?! Isn't that really passing the buck? I mean, why the bleep didn't I stick up for myself and tell them what I needed? Questions good for therapy, I guess.
My 5 yo daughter did exactly this with me, she PROFOUNDLY expressed herself ... a couple months ago during a temper tantrum (her not me) I was told her she was having a meltdown b/c she was overtired. She looked at me, with raging tears in her eyes and primaly screamed at me, "Mummy, YOU ARE NOT ME! [she pointed to her chest] YOU ARE NOT INSIDE HERE! YOU DO NOT KNOW WHAT IT'S LIKE TO BE IN HERE! YOU DO NOT KNOW HOW I FEEL!!!!!!" Gosh, I wish I had that kind of tenacity and capacity for external communication! I have a deep respect for her, and have not made the same assumption since! LOL! She told me!
>|< Penny |
| art |
Posted - 04/23/2007 : 17:24:11
quote:
Originally posted by Penny
Ok ... I've been reading the posts about "classic narcissism" and parents. Forgive my ignorance, but does someone have a good description of what this is ... or a Web site? What causes this?
Also, if we were raised by narcissistic parents, how do we avoid becoming one ourself? One of my greatest fears is that my children will grow to have the same emotional limitations I have instilled in me ... how do we stop this from perpetuating in them? I NEVER want my children to feel that I don't empathize with them--or God forbid--that I really don't value their personal experience or suffering. This idea really terrifies me! I mean, more devastating than my personal battle thru TMS would be to watch my children become pain-ridden hypochondriacs.
>|< Penny
Non illigitamus carborundum.
Penny, your very awareness and concern would not be a feature of a narcisstic parent. Narcissists feel quite empty inside, and compensate by inflating their own worth. They are so wrapped up in their own needs and wants they have little concern for others. If you stick the word in a google box you'll find loads of information..
But again, the fact that you are so concerned about passing this on to your children is a powerful argument that you won't.
Hope that helps...
A. |
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