| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| dwinsor52 |
Posted - 04/06/2007 : 05:05:05
I have been dealing with a severe relapse after 2 years pain free. I was looking at old posts on relapse and saw my own posts about a previous relapse, that were exactly two years ago. That was interesting in and of itself but also I had the same fears 2 years ago - specifically that if I have a relapse, that I will be back to 20 years of daily pain. So that FEAR keeps me from having the confidence I need to go forward. That FEAR is there despite the resolution of the relapse!!!! So, the fear is not rational. I also feel that it's possible that, for me, GUILT covers over RAGE. I am more comfortable feeling guilty in a sense, but GUILT eventually produces pain. I have a specific guilt, which is that I am estranged from my very crazy alcoholic family and have been for 10 years. But recently there was a birthday celebration for my mother, which I did not attend. I got pain back around the same time. I feel GUILT because people who don't understand tell me I should make peace. I feel GUILT because people tell me I should forgive. Underneath is RAGE that I have a crazy narcissitic mother and borderline sister who have made me the scapegoat for some pretty major things. RAGE AT MYSELF that I can't enjoy my wonderful life with my husband and two daughters and can't be free from my biological family stuff. That's my 2 cents for today. |
| 17 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Singer_Artist |
Posted - 04/10/2007 : 00:15:38
Dwinsor,
I feel for you and I can relate as well..I am estranged from my sister who is a recovering alcoholic who wreaks havoc in all of our lives for years..All we do is email on major holidays..I did see her three times when I was recently in NY for four months..But it was always with other family/friends around us..I have enormous rage for her..She has literally hurt everyone who is dear to me at one time or another, including my deceased parents..She continues to hurt me with her insane jealously over my relationship with my neice..My neice calls me daily and we are like the best of friends..This makes my sister so green with envy that she has resorted to making up stories to try to put a wedge between my neice and I! Thankfully, it didn't work and it never would..My neice knows better and has alot of rage at her as well..
You are doing the right thing as far as I am concerned..Whether it is blood relatives or not, if a relationship is toxic you must set up boundaries to protect yourself..I understand your feelings of guilt and I share those feelings as well..But intellectually I know I am doing the right thing..
Littlebird,
What you wrote to dwinsor was incredible, truly..I will be re-reading that and applying it to my situation as well..
God bless,
Karen |
| Wavy Soul |
Posted - 04/09/2007 : 23:28:07
Re the original post and last response:
It's amazing what a simple 10 minutes spent growling and butchering a pillow can do when all else fails.
xx
Love is the answer, whatever the question |
| miehnesor |
Posted - 04/09/2007 : 12:12:59
quote:
Originally posted by dwinsor52
I have been dealing with a severe relapse after 2 years pain free. I was looking at old posts on relapse and saw my own posts about a previous relapse, that were exactly two years ago. That was interesting in and of itself but also I had the same fears 2 years ago - specifically that if I have a relapse, that I will be back to 20 years of daily pain. So that FEAR keeps me from having the confidence I need to go forward. That FEAR is there despite the resolution of the relapse!!!! So, the fear is not rational. I also feel that it's possible that, for me, GUILT covers over RAGE. I am more comfortable feeling guilty in a sense, but GUILT eventually produces pain. I have a specific guilt, which is that I am estranged from my very crazy alcoholic family and have been for 10 years. But recently there was a birthday celebration for my mother, which I did not attend. I got pain back around the same time. I feel GUILT because people who don't understand tell me I should make peace. I feel GUILT because people tell me I should forgive. Underneath is RAGE that I have a crazy narcissitic mother and borderline sister who have made me the scapegoat for some pretty major things. RAGE AT MYSELF that I can't enjoy my wonderful life with my husband and two daughters and can't be free from my biological family stuff. That's my 2 cents for today.
D- You understand your situation quite well but what are you going to do with that very legitimate rage. That's the piece you need to focus on feeling. Think of this relapse as an opportunity to express the rage that has been hiding out inside of you for so long. Getting angry at yourself though is counterproductive and probably just feeds the rage of the child inside. |
| HilaryN |
Posted - 04/09/2007 : 07:09:10
quote:
(Wavy Soul)Sometimes one miraculously shifts levels to an inclusive level of unconditional love where one sees the whole picture and understands where everyone was coming from and the whole crime or whatever is seen as not being personal. And sometimes people fake that experience because they are coerced into feeling that if they are "good" they must "realize" it - or else, as you quoted, they are poisoning themselves.
Anything that starts with “should” or “ought” is a non-starter and a total waste of time. You’ve put your finger on it here: I wanted to say before, as I see it there are 2 sorts of “forgiving” – totally different, but both masquerading under the same name. One is the “should forgive” which doesn’t do any good at all, I don’t think. The other is as you’ve described above.
I think art has a very good point about “self-forgiveness”, too.
I like the “shouldist” term, too!
Hilary N |
| art |
Posted - 04/09/2007 : 06:04:13
Wrld..I was a flaming hypochondriac for several years, just like you. If I can improve, anyone can. |
| Singer_Artist |
Posted - 04/08/2007 : 22:07:13
Hi Wavy Soul,
"Shouldist" I love it! Definitely send it to Dr. Sarno..:)
I hear what you are saying..WHen I think on a spiritual level and the goals I have in that arena, I would truly like to learn how to forgive and forget better..I do feel like I am weighed down by anger toward a sibling, for example, who continues to be insanely jealous of how close i am to her children..and..continues to create unnecessary and unhealthy family dramas..(and I am sugar coating things here..) I want to forgive her and think as a Christian WWJD, but I find it very difficult because it isn't just the past I am angry about, but it's things still going on today..In my reservoir of rage, this relative figures very strongly..I put a boundary up between myself and this person and that helps..but..it doesn't 'fix' it..I don't know if anything ever will..
Hugs and blessings,
Karen |
| Wavy Soul |
Posted - 04/08/2007 : 20:56:06
Hi Karen,
Just wanted to clarify: I'm not saying that it's impossible to forgive because what was done to me was so bad, or something like that. Actually what was done to me was amazingly ****ty, but I also believe that on a higher level we were all just fulfilling various contracts for growth and learning. So forgiveness isn't really relevant, and is actually a patronizing, goodist way of thinking.
I'm saying that as a concept I don't think it quite works the way people think it does. For example, the thing you quoted about poison is the standard cliche that forgiveness gurus always use. But it's still a confusion of levels. The emotional body literally CANNOT "forgive" a transgression against itself until it gets redeemed in some way. So just having the higher mind talk forgiveness is beyond enraging.
The point I was making about my client with epilepsy is really that the forgiveness story is yet another story that the conscious mind tries to force on the other parts of the self, but it just doesn't work that way. And unfortunately the body never lies (except when the stress is taken out by other kinds of addiction or violence than the symptoms we talk about on this forum).
I certainly believe in forgiveness as an intention to evolve into, and I certainly DON'T believe in wasting time on obsessive victim thinking. But even, say, in South Africa, the only way real healing is happening is through situations like the Truth and Restitution Process (it's called something like that), in which people who have abused others have to sit and listen and listen and listen to the others talking about how it felt, what happened in their lives, in their families' lives, etc. as a result of apartheid crimes.
Sometimes one miraculously shifts levels to an inclusive level of unconditional love where one sees the whole picture and understands where everyone was coming from and the whole crime or whatever is seen as not being personal. And sometimes people fake that experience because they are coerced into feeling that if they are "good" they must "realize" it - or else, as you quoted, they are poisoning themselves.
THAT in my opinion is the poison - what Alice Miller calls "poisonous pedagogy" in which a person's feelings are made inferior to the goodist or "shouldist" mind with its high-fallutin' thinking.
"Shouldist." I like that. I wonder if I should send that to Sarno?
xxx
Love is the answer, whatever the question |
| wrldtrv |
Posted - 04/08/2007 : 19:18:06
[quote]Originally posted by art
d,
Fear is a huge part of my daily life, and I understand that until I can face life and the possibility of pain, sickness, and injury with much less fear, I'll never be free...The good news is I' ve made much progress...the bad news is there's still a ways to go...
Art--I'm curious to know if the fear you talk about is mainly health-related or other issues. The reason I ask is because, for me, medical fears are much greater than other fears. |
| Singer_Artist |
Posted - 04/08/2007 : 18:42:54
Hi Wavy Soul,
I empathize with you very much and I appreciate how real you were in this post...Forgiveness is a tough one..How do we forgive someone who repeats the same transgression over and over even in the present, for example..Someone said that when we don't forgive it's like taking poison and expecting someone else to die..Very wise words..But in reality,,true forgiveness of someone who hurts someone you love repeatedly is quite a challenge..
Take care,
Karen |
| Wavy Soul |
Posted - 04/07/2007 : 19:45:17
I am glad you have brought up this issue of forgiveness, which in my opinion is very confused in the therapy/spiritual growth/healing world.
As a therapist I've seen people badly messed up by being told to forgive by people who have no idea what it really means or what they have been through. An example was a woman who was abused for years by her father. In adulthood, trying to heal, she got into some cult or other where they insisted she forgive her father. She developed severe epilepsy and anorexia.
It's a confusion of levels. On the level of the thoughts and higher mind, of course we need to move towards not only love and forgiveness but the realization that on some level there are no victims. But on another level there definitely ARE victims, and that level is the emotional/physical overlap level we deal with on this forum. It is totally a reabuse to tell your emotional body that you should forgive someone who actually robbed a part of your wholeness that you haven't gotten back yet. Until you do, forgiving them literally feels like self-destruction.
Of course, I don't mean we should go and blame or attack. Just that the work is much more complex than the forgiveness gurus realize. Someone who has it right, I think, is Colin Tipping, whose book and seminar is called Radical Forgiveness (google it!).
I have had a lot of struggle processing how to be with my ageing parents who were classic narcissistic and borderline, and whose influence I am still, in many ways, recovering from (although on another level I created the whole thing through my soul's desire for certain lessons, blah blah). I took total space from my dad for about 10 years. When I realized he was on his last few years I began having limited contact, but it was hard on me. I would get violent back pain and other illness just from a 2 hour visit.
When he died I sucked it up and told him the good stuff to help him make his transition. That's when I got very very ill, read Sarno, and realized that I was STILL PISSED AFTER ALL THESE YEARS! And after at least 30 years of processing.
So it's not that simple, and I send you waves of sympathy and empathy.
xx
Love is the answer, whatever the question |
| art |
Posted - 04/07/2007 : 17:05:20
d,
I relate very well to what you're saying...Fear is a huge part of my daily life, and I understand that until I can face life and the possibility of pain, sickness, and injury with much less fear, I'll never be free...The good news is I' ve made much progress...the bad news is there's still a ways to go...
I have a very difficult family situation myself, and I've found that for me, self-forgiveness is more important than forgiving others...In fact, I do forgive others, despite my own pain and rage at the damage done to me, an innocent, loving kid...I've the kind of personality in fact where try as I might, I cannot carry grudges..I see my parents as human beings who when you get right down to it did the best they could with what they had..
I do better with minimal contact though...IT's just the way it is. The emotional cost is just too high... |
| dwinsor52 |
Posted - 04/07/2007 : 15:43:07
Thank you Littlebird, for the website. I got right on it. And for the feedback. Sounds like you know what i am talking about. |
| dwinsor52 |
Posted - 04/07/2007 : 15:37:51
I really appreciate the most recent reply to my post. Yes, it's very hard to explain to people that contact can be very, very dangerous. However, I strongly believe today that my relapse is due to the overwhelm I have felt because of family activity that I am not participating in and feeling guilty about - the 80th birthday and now Easter. I didn't think I felt guilty about Easter but really thinking about this my pain is better but my sadness is more profound. I think if it was just my mother I could handle it better, but my mother and sister are a team and totally enmeshed, and my mother is both narcissist and alcoholic and the center of the family system. With all the power. The reason for the last estrangement was because my entire family turned against my child when she was only 5 years old. They accused her of something really terrible and professionals we consulted said my family was dangerous. However, I still feel the guilt and shame about my decision and seek others' approval for staying away. A total set up for TMS. My mother has told me that she only will see me again if I stop talking about what happened with my daughter. So I am not allowed to talk about anything. So I am in a double bind. |
| HilaryN |
Posted - 04/07/2007 : 13:12:46
Debby,
Something needs to be resolved here. I think it’s good you’ve taken the action you need to lead a happy life… but it seems it’s not quite worked if you’re unable to enjoy that life because of guilt. I’ve got more to say but no time at the moment as it’s Sat night and I have to get ready to go out.
Hilary N |
| Littlebird |
Posted - 04/06/2007 : 11:40:10
No wonder you have had a relapse, that's a huge thing to deal with. You must have great rage going on, it's totally normal in such a situation.
You mentioned that your sister is borderline, have you done much reading about that or visited any support sites? Does your mom have any of those behaviors too? Of course, there can be overlap between the behaviors of a narcissistic personality and a borderline personality, so either way you've got a lot to deal with.
My mom was borderline and an alcoholic. Other family members abused alcohol while trying to cope with Mom. You will find people who understand the choice to cut all contact on the borderline support boards. I like www.bpdcentral.com. The person who started that board was one of the authors of "Stop Walking on Eggshells." Even if your mom isn't borderline, the support for people who stop contact might be encouraging to read. I haven't looked for support groups for narcissism, but some of the people on the borderline forum are dealing with that too.
While I'm a big believer in forgiveness, I agree that sometimes you have to cut the contact. You can forgive the past, if you choose, without exposing yourself to new pain. People who haven't been in these kinds of relationships may not understand and even some who have been in such relationships may have a different opinion and different experiences, but try not to let them add to your guilt (easier said than done, I know) if they don't understand your choice. Borderlines are some of the most skilled manipulators there are, and they often don't have the same kind of thought processes--they're off in their own dimension sometimes--that someone without the disorder has, so sometimes they use forgiveness that's extended to them as another tool to hurt the people close to them. It's about the same with narcissists. They are too self-focused to feel empathy for your pain. They love to see you feel guilty because it gives them power to manipulate you. It's a sad situation, but you are not the one causing the problems!
I had to protect my husband and children from my mother's behavior. It's really sad when you have to tell your child, "Grandma carries a gun and isn't afraid to use if on family members, so if she ever shows up at our door angry you need to sneak out a window, run to the neighbor's house, call 911 and tell them your mother's life is in danger because Grandma's here with a gun." I didn't go full no contact at all times, and later Mom suffered brain damage that changed her into a much nicer person, but I totally understand your choice and believe no one should question it.
Hang in there--and look for people who understand your situation if you need support for your no contact choice. Ignore criticism from people who don't understand your situation. Take care! Corey |
| dwinsor52 |
Posted - 04/06/2007 : 10:25:34
Actually, my problem has been being too forgiving. I am a true "goodist". |
| ralphyde |
Posted - 04/06/2007 : 10:13:10
I recently ran across this quotation, no author given:
"To forgive is to set a prisoner free and to discover that the prisoner was YOU."
Ralph
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