| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| JoeW |
Posted - 10/22/2004 : 00:02:05
Occasionally the question comes up here as to why Sarno is not more well known, or recognised, particularly by his peers. For example, in the recent Newsweek special on Mindbody approaches, there is not one mention of him.
I'm wondering after reading a recent post by Suz, who had the honour of speaking to the man, whether this is of his own making. She quotes him as saying : "He told me not to use Schecter's book as it is too controlling". And yet Schecter is one of his closest allies?! If he doesn't support him, who does he support?
I also thought about this when reading Herbert Benson's work on the placebo effect. He gives an excellent explanation as to why the placebo effect is under-esimated, and should not be seen as a negative thing. Much of it tied in well with Sarno, I thought. And yet Sarno dismisses placebo, and I assume alienated Benson in the process. Benson wrote the centre-piece of the Newsweek feature.
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| 18 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| floridaboy |
Posted - 11/15/2004 : 19:37:42
the other people that weren't motivated by money or helping people were probably future TMS candidates...they were doing it to make someone else in their family happy (read Dad and Mom!). |
| JohnD |
Posted - 11/15/2004 : 18:40:04
Biggest reason why nobody accepts Sarno's work is that nobody really knows about him.
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| Baseball65 |
Posted - 11/12/2004 : 16:02:24
Hi.
Its not hard to see why he has been "so studiously ignored" to quote the good Dr.
His peers reject him simply because there is nothing to do,buy,follow up on etc.Even the people who acknowledge that stress is the main cause of these ailments,generally don't have as simple,yet fascinating Diagnosis and sensible medical model to explain what's going on.In this scientific era,only things that appeal to a logical format that can be replicated make sense to anyone.These other people could acknowledge it is 100% stress,yet that would not convince any pain sufferer let alone a Doctor.
I fantasized of punching the first guy who told me about Sarno.How Dare he insult me like that...My pain is REAL m-er,f-er.
Now imagine your a Doctor trained for 12 years to believe the earth is flat(That's what the MRI shows..the earth is FLAT)
Are you going to turn on a dime,just cause some guy with better stats than you is right? How am I going to make the Payment on my hummer when I tell my patients that they can heal themselves,and that coming to my office is only prolonging and re-enforcing their symptoms??
I posted on another forum to someone who asked the weatherbeaten question "well,could you please explain how simply reading a book could make my extreme(symptom,symptom,symptom) go away"
I used this anlogy:
I just put you in a time machine with your microwave oven to....let's say 1965...not too long ago.They have electrical outlets that will even facilitate your use of the oven.
You're on a street with your microwave plugged in.People come up and oooh and aah over it.....you explain briefly what it does,but insist they have to put their food inside to see this "miracle" work.....No one will risk losing their lunch to your machine,so they all have their cold sandwiches and soup while all the while the solution was right there in front of them
Doctors and patients alike recoil for the same reason:They don't want to lose their lunch!
I have a standing bet...I tell my friends and aquaintances that if they read the book cover to cover and don't get better,I'll buy the book back from them at twice the cover price.....Take note that I've never had to pay a cent.
Now..I've made that bet with at least 100 people....6 or 7 have taken me up on it.
And doctors.....sheesh.If I treat you and you get well,well than you don't have to come see me every week/month/day...whatever.
Sorry to break it down so simple,but in America it just comes down to dollars and cents.I remember seeing a stat posted in the eighties...Students entering medical school:what is your motivation for becoming a Physician 86%: the money 5%:to help people(I don't remember where the other per cents were)
Baseball65 |
| Stryder |
Posted - 11/02/2004 : 15:45:55
Hi Texasrunner,
You make several good points. Also, I think part of the problem is that Dr. Sarno's techniques do not work for _ALL_, they work best on those like us who fit the personality profile (perfectionist, do-gooder, etc.)
The medical community doesnt want to have to stop to decide which camp you are in, its easier to treat all pain releated cases the same (here's some drugs and some physical therapy (or some surgery.))
I can't imagine the medical community saying,
"You have a TMS personality, there's nothing wrong with your body",
vs.,
"You do not have a TMS personality, here, let me give you a steriod injection and a discectomy".
-Stryder
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| Texasrunner |
Posted - 11/02/2004 : 07:00:13
Alhough I think Sarno's peers basically understand that he is correct, he is not accepted for the same reason that psychoanalysis has fallen out of favor as a treatment for mental illness. Although it is often successful, it takes a long time, and is not easily done. Whereas the modern doctor can simply say "here, take some prozac." Most people are conditioned to look for an instant cure, whether it's from drugs or surgery. And doctors are trained to deliver on that level. |
| menvert |
Posted - 10/26/2004 : 08:08:49
'Whatever works for you'
I think is a very key point to mindbody medicine...
Some people need structure, other people work better without it.
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| Louise |
Posted - 10/25/2004 : 11:01:34
When I saw Dr. Schechter last fall, he asked me if I was doing his workbook. I told him that I was more comfortable journaling at the computer keyboard (my handwriting is pretty horrific, and you know how us perfectionists can be... ) rather than writing in the book. I told him that I really only used the workbook to get ideas for things to write about when I needed inspiration, or felt like I was repeating myself. He was totally cool with that. He said that the important thing was to write my thoughts down or to speak them out loud. He said that just thinking about what was bothering me was not enough - it had to be expressed somehow.
I greatly respect Dr. Sarno for his pioneering work with TMS, but I also think that it's important for each of us to find what works for us. If exploring other TMS books works for you, more power to you!! It's about recovery - not theology. |
| Suz |
Posted - 10/25/2004 : 09:36:56
Interesting posts here. I have to say that Sarno was not happy about Schecter's work book at all. He said I should have called him rather than go searching for help else where. He said that the problem with Schecter's book was that it was too confining. He wanted me to write free style about what might be bothering me.
I have gone back to reading his psychology chapter each night and have started to free style write. My pain has reduced now to a dull ached at night time. 3 days ago, I was frightened to go to bed as the pain was so bad I would pass out. His system works like a charm! |
| tennis tom |
Posted - 10/25/2004 : 00:07:24
FarmerEd,
I agree whole-heartedly with you on that. Well said!
tt |
| FarmerEd |
Posted - 10/24/2004 : 19:03:46
I don't think Sarno tries to come across as resentful towards the medical community but after trying to get them to see the truth of TMS for so long with so little success I'm sure it's almost impossible for a little bitterness and despair not to seep out. Almost all of us have had the experience of trying to help a friend or loved one who was in pain from TMS, see the truth of their condition. Most of our help fell on deaf ears and we had to sit by and endure watching them continue to suffer needlessly.
Now multiply that experience hundreds if not thousands of times and you get an idea of some of the reasons Dr. Sarno may feel a little frustrated. When he first saw the truth of TMS I'm sure he was as elated as any of us were when we finally grasped the true nature of our problem. Sarno had been trying for years to aid back pain sufferers using conventional treatments with very little success. Now after seeing the truth of the MindBody process that was responsible for the pain, and developing a program that finally worked and gave the relief to patients he had wanted all along, I'm sure he was beside himself with joy. Then he takes his findings to other medical professionals and what do they do, scoff at it.
I believe it was over thirty years ago that Dr. Sarno first grasped the truth of TMS and since that time he has tried on numerous occasions to get the medical community to realize they're off track. After being rejected time and again I kinda think he's given up and he seems to sort of withdrawn from the battle and somewhat resigned himself to the fact that they just are not going to see. How FRUSTRATING that must be. So I cut the good Doc a little slack if he comes across the wrong way some times, he's earned it in my book. |
| menvert |
Posted - 10/23/2004 : 20:46:34
quote:
...post by Suz, who had the honour of speaking to the man, whether this is of his own making. She quotes him as saying : "He told me not to use Schecter's book as it is too controlling". And yet Schecter is one of his closest allies?! If he doesn't support him, who does he support?
I don't think Sarno actually rejects Schechter outright .
it read to me like for Suz's specific case, schechters workbook would not be beneficial as she is already quite capable of journaling her own way...
Sarno does seem to be quite content to let people find him and to not massively advertise his beliefs. I mean, if we saw him on an info-mercial etc... his credibility would be severely lessened.
And like I have had to accept... you cannot make people believe TMS.... people have to basically find it for themselves. People who have not experienced chronic pain, would not be inclined to believe it or accept it. Had I read Sarno book, immediately after getting my pain I probably would not have accepted it...
And yes, you have to do it for YOURSELF as mentioned most people are not prepared to put in the work, they just want a drug to fix it up.
Also Re: other authors, I think for Sarno, it is similar to stopping all physical therapy...
if you keep searching for new books and authors it stops you from focusing on the important aspects of his work(thinking psychological etc.) you have to completely ACCEPT his work in order to achieve a cure... and I don't think we can do that as easily if you are using other Author/Doctors techniques/beliefs/books it just keeps giving your brain a little more leverage , so as to make you doubt Sarno... (eg: because so & so said it's not because of unconscious emotions it's because of <insert alternative theory here>.... etc)
I respect Sarno's attitude. he is not blowing his own horn. |
| JoeW |
Posted - 10/23/2004 : 04:12:21
Stryder - I understand why there is resistance from "normal" doctors, I'm just interested that Sarno also seems not to get support from other "mindbody" doctors (e.g. Benson), and was wondering if this was of his own making by being so single minded (e.g. by not even supporting Schecter, who is a close ally).
Good luck to him - maybe it's only by taking such a definite path that he has had such success. I certainly hope he takes his place in history. The mindbody health approach seems to be gaining momentum at the moment, and I'm seeing more and more articles in the popular press about its importance. I certainly won't look back.
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| Stryder |
Posted - 10/22/2004 : 16:25:21
quote:
Originally posted by Zshapiro32
I wouldn't go this far. TMS is a difficult concept to accept for a doctor...
Yes, I agree, its conditioning as well. Change is hard. -Stryder |
| Zshapiro32 |
Posted - 10/22/2004 : 16:17:06
quote:
Originally posted by Stryder
The good Dr. Sarno is not accepted by his peers because his brilliant analysis of the root cause of TMS pain is a threat to his peer's bank account. Simply put, a threat to a booming business in the USA. -Stryder
I wouldn't go this far. TMS is a difficult concept to accept for a doctor. Think of all the training they went through. Think of all the sacrifice they had to endure to become a doctor, only to have someone tell them that western-medicine is all wrong.
My father is a Pediatrician, and I've tried a few times to discuss TMS with him. He rejects it ALMOST completely, and I honestly can't blame him. He is good intentioned, as are most of the doctors I have spoken to.
pain is only temporary |
| Stryder |
Posted - 10/22/2004 : 16:04:28
The good Dr. Sarno is not accepted by his peers because his brilliant analysis of the root cause of TMS pain is a threat to his peer's bank account. Simply put, a threat to a booming business in the USA. -Stryder |
| tennis tom |
Posted - 10/22/2004 : 10:03:57
Good post Kavita,
I think you've hit the nail on the head here. It's a matter of style and not substance. Sarno started out, and to his credit, continues to be a DOCTOR. He had the genious, insight and courage to see that his profession had gone astray from it's mission to help and do no harm. The med/pharmacal/industrial complex has made some amazing advanaces in the last 100 years, coming from blood letting with leeches to heroic lifesaving techniques such as heart transplants, (and recently returning to using leeches-I gueess we've come full circle).
But, for the 80% of what ails the common man, Sarno's TMS theory, works just fine. The problem is, there is little money in it as compared to pills, physical therapies, snake oils, and the best placebo, surgery.
A TMS doctor's exam is so perfunctory, that we feel short-changed after a visit to one. WHAT?- no urine, blood work, films? This can't be definitive. And then, you're sent on your merry way to think it over--PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY, for your own health-what a bitch.
If your psyche has been made especially resistant to this idea, by the lemming producing med-marketing machine, you can go off to group meetings with your fellow suffering peers or if "modern life" has made you even more resistant to common sense, than Sarno will give you the name of a psychologist for the indiviualized attention your gremlin deserves. I wonder why they call them "shrinks"? Is it because they shrink egos?
I've never met the Good Doctor, but I consider him my primary physician. He never asked to be a guru, a Freudian, a media darling, or a politcian. He writes a book every ten years, refining and upadating his college-off-hard-knocks studies for those of us who will listen. His STUDY is not tainted by funding from a corp. He has not been corrupted by the med/industrial/pharmacal complex. When they start giving away copies of his books with magic bullets, then beware. When you start seeing TMS mouse pads, TMS pens, TMS wall clocks, TMS back-packs, and TMS hooter girls watch out!
To his credit, Sarno just tells it, like he sees it. If that seems harsh, no one is forced to visit him. There are plenty of other dox, who will be more than happy, to give you a sugar-pill and then cut you, and if that does't fix you, cut you again.
Doctor Sarno could have probably retired years ago, but like any real doctor, he feels compelled to keep showing up to help people by telling them the truth.
Best wishes and good health,
tt |
| Suz |
Posted - 10/22/2004 : 09:29:30
I agree with many of these points. Don't get me wrong, I also have to say that Sarno is extremely kind and patient and was delightful to talk to. He is very passionate about his work and very frustrated with the medical industry in general. I think his frustration is very valid. He does come across as very direct but sometimes that is not a bad thing. I took notice of what he said and went back to the basics of his program. I was doing what I always do - trying out different approaches my way. He has proved that his "cure" works so why am I avidly searching for other materials/other books. It really isn't necessary. His system works! |
| Kavita |
Posted - 10/22/2004 : 08:36:35
Joe-
Is it possible that Sarno presents his idea in a way that seems too radical at first? The reason why I say this is because I am currently reading the book "Back Sense", which is also based on Sarno's work, and explains that stress the cause for 99.5% of chronic back pain. In my opinion, this book presents information in a manner that makes it much easier for the analytical mind to except. For example, the author cites studies that show that people with labor-intensive jobs actually have lower rates of back pain then the rest of the country. In third world countries, especially, there is no stigma or fear associated with back pain - it is accepted as harmless and will go away. It sort of like the reaction to abdominal cramping -yeah, it sucks, but it's benign and will resolve. Then it does.
Ultimately, Sarno puts it all out there, and though he provides many examples of patients who have had resolution of symptoms, there is just something about the way he rights that almost makes you want to challege him. That's just my opinion. I do think that if it weren't for Sarno, the Mind-Body movement would not have the gusto it does now, and probably would not even be a movement at all! |
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