| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| dwinsor52 |
Posted - 03/31/2007 : 14:00:40
I put in a new reply to one of my previous posts but I have a new issue so help help!!! Pain free for 2 1/2 years, during which time I was on an antidepressant. Went off antidepressant for a few months, went back on (what else is new) two months ago. Hurt foot, had fear, pain spread to all over, self imposed pressures, talking to others about how I have healed from TMS, talking about it a lot!!!!! Was going to include TMS work in my private practice (am a therapist), got all excited, pain gets worse, I read in Sarno's books about people who get pain after emotional symptoms subside - think that it's the antidepressant causing the return of my TMS. Even though LOGICALLY I know it's other things, I can't get rid of obsessing about the meds being the cause. I still need a lot of work. Can anyone reassure me that Sarno and others say taking an antidepressant is okay? Has anyone else experienced more pain when talking about their healing to others who have pain?
Debby |
| 19 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Wavy Soul |
Posted - 04/03/2007 : 04:30:23
Dwinsor
I find the "illness" syndrome to be like a trance. When you are in it, it seems to extend infinitely in all directions. The other week I was in Mexico and I got stomach sick and also my back went majorly "out." As a result I was unable to really do the yoga I was there for.
And I went into this complete reality that said that I am disabled. Because for decades I lived with that with my fibro and CFS. I had to do major self-inquiry. "Am I really disabled?" No, you go to the gym every day. "But I can't do yoga like the others." Yes, it's okay that you're not feeling good now, but you are not disabled.
I mean, it seemed completely true from the inside of that brain chemical that had gotten triggered and was telling me its story. In retrospect I can see that I was kind of lonely there and it brought up deep feelings, and I got sick in the usual way to distract me...
So I'm saying that even though it feels as though you are ill again, it's just a sort of trance and you should radically dispute it (like in the way someone was suggesting above, which is laid out in Authentic Happiness by Seligman, or Byron Katie's work, or something like that). Soon you'll be well again and you'll laugh at how seriously you took this.
Karen
Yes - I'm having to hold stronger boundaries than ever these days. The cruelest thing one can do is stop someone else from having their own bottoming out.
xx
Love is the answer, whatever the question |
| Wavy Soul |
Posted - 04/03/2007 : 01:08:15
Dwinsor
I find the "illness" syndrome to be like a trance. When you are in it, it seems to extend infinitely in all directions. The other week I was in Mexico and I got stomach sick and also my back went majorly "out." As a result I was unable to really do the yoga I was there for.
And I went into this complete reality that said that I am disabled. Because for decades I lived with that with my fibro and CFS. I had to do major self-inquiry. "Am I really disabled?" No, you go to the gym every day. "But I can't do yoga like the others." Yes, it's okay that you're not feeling good now, but you are not disabled.
I mean, it seemed completely true from the inside of that brain chemical that had gotten triggered and was telling me its story. In retrospect I can see that I was kind of lonely there and it brought up deep feelings, and I got sick in the usual way to distract me...
So I'm saying that even though it feels as though you are ill again, it's just a sort of trance and you should radically dispute it (like in the way someone was suggesting above, which is laid out in Authentic Happiness by Seligman, or Byron Katie's work, or something like that). Soon you'll be well again and you'll laugh at how seriously you took this.
Karen
Yes - I'm having to hold stronger boundaries than ever these days. The cruelest thing one can do is stop someone else from having their own bottoming out.
xx
Love is the answer, whatever the question |
| carbar |
Posted - 04/02/2007 : 19:21:24
quote:
Originally posted by dwinsor52
So now what should I do with my beautiful new business cards? Should I avoid discussing TMS with my clients? I am angry at the TMS boogey man that stands on my shoulder! Today what I am dealing with is the insistance of the pain, despite my understanding of what is going on. I feel like yelling at my brain is not helping, It seems that the more I fight it, the worse it is! Any suggestions? I am thinking it might be best to just accept it and be calm with it. I keep forgetting that I overcame it before. I have fear that it is back for good. It's like I am a kid saying "I don't like this and I won't ever not appreciate being pain free again" - Wow! kind of like saying "I will be good now" What does THAT say,,,,,,,I can tell the fear is perpetuating this. I can't seem to stop the fearful thoughts.
Hey Dwinsor,
I really appreciate the discussion coming from this thread. Wow! I guess my question is, what kind of techniques do you use as a therapist to talk about issues with clients that are also a trigger for you? I am a teacher, and I know there are certain behaviors in my kids that really ring a lot of bells from my past painful experiences and I always have to work really hard to stay objective and logical in dealing with them. (Doesn't always work, which makes me feel guilty and unconfident) I'm thinking they train you a bit more than me in this sort of thing. Is there any crossover to the TMS trigger or not? Is it different because it's a physical reaction versus an emotional one?
CB |
| Kristin |
Posted - 04/02/2007 : 10:19:06
This comes down to what many have said here before, it's a personal responsibility issue. I have encouraged my husband to read the books and suggesting ideas of TMS to my daughter without much success. This thread is making something very clear, I have had to make my own truth and claim my own story of TMS. As much as anyone elses stories might trigger a memory or realization, the healing only starts with me.
I have to closely examine what I think I'm trying to accomplish by sharing this helpful knowledge with my family members. I think I am projecting myself on them. I have good intentions but you know what they say about those! HA! Maybe it's more goodist and perfectionist coming out and even a bit controlling on my part. Thanks for this discussion because I think these are things I need to deal with. A lot of anxiety and repressed feelings exist under those tendencies for me. |
| Singer_Artist |
Posted - 04/02/2007 : 09:57:32
wrldtrv,
Thanx for sharing that disputation method with me, that is very creative and helpful! Isn't it just amazing the lengths our bodies go to...well really our brains...to distract us from feeling what we don't want to feel! yikes!
dwinsor,
I so understand what you are dealing with..I started a whole thread about fear..The more I think about it, I think fear is the worse component of TMS, even worse then the repressed rage...It starts the whole vicious cycle and keeps it going if we allow it to...My advice is don't avoid discussing this with your clients...and keep in mind the principle of "what you resist persists.." I think of that whenever I get into the mode of "I can't take this pain anymore...go away!!!!" I am kind of there right now, in fact..Dealing with pain in the neck, left hands etc...It is maddening..
Wavy Soul,
Boy can I relate when you say "I am not responsible for anyone elses choices or results!" It doesn't just remind me of when I worked in your field but also reminds me of two very close people in my life that I am trying to help on a daily basis...I love them both so dearly..they are very important to me..one is family, the other isn't..Both are simultaneously at one of the worst bottoms of their lives! One is dealing with alcoholism and resistent to go inpatient which, in my view, is necessary..The other is dealing w/ physical and financial challenges that remind me alot of myself..some similiar symptoms, neck, back, etc...I even sent the Scott Brady video for this person to view in the hopes it might help...But I have to think of Me too! I am always helping others so much in my world that I forget about what I need...
And the frustration involved when you spend literally hours every day trying to talk sense into someone and yet they do not take your advice and continue the same destructive path is enough to drive one crazy...There are other family dynamics that make it even worse..At this point, my health is also being negatively affected by their stress they are dumping on me..and yet..I continue to allow it because of how much I love them...
Hugs and God bless,
Karen |
| dwinsor52 |
Posted - 04/02/2007 : 05:09:41
So now what should I do with my beautiful new business cards? Should I avoid discussing TMS with my clients? I am angry at the TMS boogey man that stands on my shoulder! Today what I am dealing with is the insistance of the pain, despite my understanding of what is going on. I feel like yelling at my brain is not helping, It seems that the more I fight it, the worse it is! Any suggestions? I am thinking it might be best to just accept it and be calm with it. I keep forgetting that I overcame it before. I have fear that it is back for good. It's like I am a kid saying "I don't like this and I won't ever not appreciate being pain free again" - Wow! kind of like saying "I will be good now" What does THAT say,,,,,,,I can tell the fear is perpetuating this. I can't seem to stop the fearful thoughts. |
| Wavy Soul |
Posted - 04/02/2007 : 00:24:33
WOW!
Just popped back on the forum, and this thread is for me, bros and sistas!
I am also a therapist (and seminar leader) and since a near-miraculous Sarnozian recovery (or at least improvement) I have been TMSing all over everyone.
In the last week I have had a client with severe panic attacks supposedly (but not really) about her weird symptoms which have been fully checked out by a zillion docs. She knows it's TMS, and is coming to me for support in going for the underlying issues. It's all working, but I am realizing from reading the above that the whole thing has created a big pressure for me.
I am being real with her and others about where I am at with the whole thing, and about the fact that it's an ongoing process and TMS can (and does with me) recur. However, I am now realizing how much pressure there is for me in this. I'm not responsible for anyone else's results or choices. But that doesn't mean I don't feel pressure at an unconscious level. And conscious, too, in the last week.
Thanks for your helpful pts.
xx
Love is the answer, whatever the question |
| wrldtrv |
Posted - 04/01/2007 : 22:57:56
Thanks for the kind words, TT and Karen. As for the PSA test, TT, I know it is very flawed. One doctor told me he would never get one himself. Another doc told a friend of mine that he does not offer PSA's to his patients unless they insist on them and he would certainly never get one himself.
The return of the symptoms I mentioned have the marks of TMS all over them. Not only did they begin right after I scheduled the PSA test, but there is that other big stressor I talked about coming up in the next couple of months. Further suspicious evidence: I had had significant thoracic (upper back) pain for the past 2-3 months that literally vanished when these new (new old symptoms) started. A couple of months ago I finally made a PT appt for the shoulder pain I had had for 6 months that had been getting a lot worse and treating it like TMS hadn't seemed to work. Literally as soon as I made the appt the problem was probably 80% better.
A couple of points about these new old symptoms. First, I think these are more likely to return again and again because they are much scarier than the other stuff I've gotten. They will therefore be excellent distractors, keeping me focused on the BODY better than anything else! Second, they have an interesting pattern. This time and last, symptoms seem to worsen through the afternoon, but by night, gone...until the next day when the cycle repeats itself.
Karen, you asked about the cognitive disputation method I use. There are slightly different versions of it, but the one I use is this, an "A,B,C,D,E" method. A is (can't recall word it stands for) the situation that is bothering you, eg a physical symptom. B equals your beliefs about it, eg "I've know I've got cancer". C is the consequences of holding this belief, such as the fear and worry and wasted time. D is your disputation of B, your beliefs. You basically look for all the errors in those beliefs, eg how do you know you have cancer? Do you have evidence for that belief? And so on. Finally, E = your "effective new belief", which might be something like, "Well, after looking at the evidence it seems very unlikely that I have cancer..."
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| Singer_Artist |
Posted - 04/01/2007 : 18:38:25
Wrldtrv,
I can so relate to how you are feeling..especially the hypochondriasis issue...I was just talking about that in the thread I wrote on fear...If it's not TMS pain, I am dealing with some physical worry..A mole that looks funny, a strange chest pain, etc. etc. ad nauseum..This preoccupation with sensations in my body is maddening..I was wondering if it is another manifestation of TMS actually...And all this worry/fear about the future, etc..doesn't help...I may try that exercise you described where you write down the fears and challenge them..Can you elaborate on that a little..
I hope you feel much better very soon! Your replies have always helped me so much!
God bless and hugs!
Karen |
| dwinsor52 |
Posted - 04/01/2007 : 05:39:51
I really appreciate hearing others' experience. I am thinking about how PROGRAMMING works so insidiously that we don't know it's happening. Like Pavlov's bell, we are conditioned in TMS mode even when we think it's all over. What I am realizing is that the bell can go off even after several years!!!!! So for me, when I started to get pain in my foot, and experienced DOUBT and FEAR, the bell went off and presto I am in a full TMS attack, which perpetuates itself because of the fear and doubt. I think it's a matter of both repressed emotions and that programming going on. AND despite, the fact that a week ago I had two major, major events in which I knew I had repressed rage, I want to blame my pain on my antidepressant!!!! It's almost like I can talk the talk, but not walk the walk. I was telling others about the power of the unconscious but not myself. So now I am not sure whether I am dealing with the unconscious rage or the programming or both! |
| tennis tom |
Posted - 04/01/2007 : 00:15:23
quote:
Originally posted by wrldtrv
... These current symptoms started gradually a few days ago right after I arranged to do something that I have been dreading for 1 1/2 yrs--get a PSA (prostate)test. This sounds silly, I know, but since getting a reading last time that was a hair above the normal range my hypochondriacal imagination went wild. As long as I delayed the next test I was okay, but now that I'm actually scheduled to do it, I'm stressed. Almost the day I made the appt, the symptoms that I hadn't had for at least a year started to return (shakiness, various pains, stiffness...).
I wouldn't worry about the PSA exam too much, I had to get one recently otherwise the doc wouldn't renew my rx for Flomax (these uros literally got us by the b****).
I heard a year or so ago, that the doc who invented the PSA test, now disavows it and says it isn't accurate. So I wouldn't worry if it is a hair or two off. If you google PSA, the latest study info should come up. Good luck.
Cheers,
tt
some of my favorite excerpts from 'TDM' : http://www.tmshelp.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2605
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| wrldtrv |
Posted - 03/31/2007 : 20:44:32
What a timely topic! First, I too have been "selling" TMS to others lately because I felt I had resolved my physical symptoms from last year and felt sharing the wealth. A couple of those seemed receptive at first and even read TDM, but the jury is still out on whether it helped. Others, the defensive ones, I didn't dare do more than hint around at Sarno ideas.
Meanwhile, sharing Sarno feels like a heavy burden because I continue to have my own doubts and don't want the responsibility of someone else's pain and fear. Doubt creeps in every time I have a setback.
The past few days I seem to be relapsing. It's scary and depressing to have old symptoms return, especially when one had thought they were gone for good. On the other hand, the TMS connection seems quite strong. These current symptoms started gradually a few days ago right after I arranged to do something that I have been dreading for 1 1/2 yrs--get a PSA (prostate)test. This sounds silly, I know, but since getting a reading last time that was a hair above the normal range my hypochondriacal imagination went wild. As long as I delayed the next test I was okay, but now that I'm actually scheduled to do it, I'm stressed. Almost the day I made the appt, the symptoms that I hadn't had for at least a year started to return (shakiness, various pains, stiffness...).
There is another very stressful event happening in the next couple of months too. Because of the timing of these symptoms, the TMS connection seems logical. The problem is convincing my anxious brain of that. I'm a journaler. Every day I write about stresses, fears, anything I can think of. I think I have a pretty good handle on all of that unless I'm missing something. I even do a cognitive exercise (on paper), where I basically list the fear and then dispute it to find the errors in the beliefs. These current symptoms can easily and logically be dismissed using this method. Still, there is something deeper than conscious belief that prevents me from buying it. There is always that deeper voice that says, "well maybe, but I'll hedge my bets by ____" |
| Singer_Artist |
Posted - 03/31/2007 : 19:26:59
Hi Dwinsor,
When I first got out of college I worked as a counsellor for a couple of years b4 going on the road singing..It was hard not to take on some of the pain of my clients..I empathize with you..I don't know how Dr. Sarno feels about the whole antidepressant issue..but I do know that Don Dubin is a wonderful therapist...I have seen him in person and had several phone sessions...He is great! Very insightful about TMS and very kind...
Blessings to you,
Karen |
| Curiosity18 |
Posted - 03/31/2007 : 19:15:29
I have also experienced this phenomenon! As a psychologist I had started to incorporate TMS as an area of my practice (upon referral from TMS physicians). I actually have needed to discontinue this as a sub-specialty because my own issues/symptoms were being triggered. I am now back in psychotherapy (as well as journaling for the first time). Obviously, I am needing to resolve some deeper issues before I can successfully help others with this. As I mentioned in an earlier post, even journaling has exacerbated my symptoms (facing the deep stuff).
I think it's so fascinating (and frustrating) how the gremlin can just morph from one area to another as a way of distracting us from the deeper issues.
dwinsor,
For what it's worth, I have seen some clients with TMS actually improve with antidepressants when they continue to do the deeper work, such as depth journaling and self talk. It seems to allow for a break in the fearful, obsessive thoughts so that more attention can be directed toward the unconscious stuff. However, some people report that they feel emotionally numb while they are on them, so I'm not sure if antidepressants would be indicated for them. I would suggest that you try not to worry about it, and just get back to the reading, journaling, and self talk. You may also want to give Don Dubin, a Los Angeles based TMS psychotherapist a try. He does phone sessions.
I wish you the best!
Curiosity |
| chicago |
Posted - 03/31/2007 : 16:42:11
Great response from the Doc. When you mentioned telling your husband you were pain free and then the pain came back that rang a bell with me. That same situation has happened to me many times. Its like I pinch myself and say wow no pain, it must be gone, then I get fearful, is it really gone, the next thing is that I become aware of any little pain and bang its back. What a process.
Chicago |
| dwinsor52 |
Posted - 03/31/2007 : 16:25:57
Wow! This feedback is really helping me. I had assumed that, since I was pain free, that I would be safe telling the world about it. I remember something else! I almost wrote a book about my recovery from so-called "Fibromyalgia" for the fibro folks. As soon as I started writing it, my pain returned. This is another thing - I have been mostly doing another kind of work the past few years (adoption work with couples) so branching out to include TMS meant getting new business cards made that did not say "Adoption Specialist". Well, my pain was very intense since I ordered the cards. Okay, so maybe I better use those cards just for regular counseling! I guess what's happening is the nocebo effect.
Debby |
| drziggles |
Posted - 03/31/2007 : 15:44:09
As a neurologist, I find one of my major TMS stressors to be using the theories with my own patients. Doing this raises a host of issues for me (which should be familiar to most TMS sufferers), including fear of rejection and, especially, perfectionism/fear of inadequacy (the need to "fix" everyone, leading to inevitable failure). I think there is also the little thought in the back of our minds that if other people don't believe it, maybe we are wrong.
Sometimes there is a clear, direct correlation. For example, I had one memorable moment when, during my introductory TMS spiel to one back pain sufferer, I felt a sudden "pop" in my head and instantly developed a visual migraine aura, followed by a headache. On another occasion, I developed back pain immediately after I learned a friend of mine (for whom I had, unsolicited, purchased Healing Back Pain), went for back surgery.
I think it's not at all a suprise that starting to use TMS with your clients would bring up many of these same issues. It reminds me of being a door-to-door salesman or telemarketer--I'm selling something (TMS) to people that they don't know about and usually don't want! As someone with thin skin (again like many TMSers), I take the rejection very personally, though I know I shouldn't. You shouldn't either! |
| dwinsor52 |
Posted - 03/31/2007 : 15:26:04
I think you are right. Why now, when I am talking to some friends with chronic pain about Sarno and my own healing, and now when I am taking the risk to try to educate people both personally and professionally, is the pain back? It seems more than coincidental and I am all of a sudden remembering one time when I had been free of pain for a while, and then telling my husband, and it was back that night. The unconscious is so powerful! I still feel totally confident about the TMS diagnosis, but my brain wants to blame the antidepressants and their possibly blocking my unconscious. Howevever, I am only too aware of my intrapsychic conflicts or whatever he says. Because after I sent my post I listed all my self imposed pressures and they were pretty numerous. Mostly everything! |
| chicago |
Posted - 03/31/2007 : 14:57:50
I know for me its less about talking about TMS. However the only one I really talk to about it is my wife who is ver supportive. Perhaps if I was thinking of including TMS theroy as part of counseling others it would trigger pain. I might think that I have to be totally over my pain and issues before helping others. Just that type of pressure might trigger it for me. I know being around my dad who has cancer and neuropathy triggers pain for me. If I was his therapist I might also feel his physical pain. Maybe the key when counseling others is to try to remain detached from their pain and recognize both your physical pain and theirs is part of the TMS process. I certainly don't have all the answers. It would be interesting to hear what others think.
Chicago
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