| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| JohnO |
Posted - 02/13/2007 : 16:26:55
A few days ago, I mentioned on these posts that I was seeing Dr. Sopher and was asked to let people know about the visit. Here goes........
Dr. Sopher operates a family practice in a neat little New Hampshire town called Exeter. His office is professioanl but not at all assuming. As I drove the hour drive from where I live to Exeter, I was near breakdown point. 45 minutes with Dr. Sopher turned that all around. I have so much respect and admiration for that man, I only hope I can articualte how so properly.
I have long understood TMS and Sarno and all but had slipped in recent weeka and been struggling mightily with levator syndrome misery. It has been so awful that I was thinking about going on work disablity. Dr. Sopher was quick to tell me to nix all that becaause that was what the brain wanted, to win the battle and prevail by having the pain distract me so much that I would do stupid things like thinking that way. He reminded me that TMS is not a quick fix and that to win the battle you must have a constant dialogue with your brain reminding it that you know what it is trying to do and weren't going to capitulate.
There has been a lot of conjecture on these posts about whether to believe 100% that problems are psychological versus physical. Let me tell you with no hesitation, he belives that you must absolutely believe that TMS is 100% psychological. No ifs ands or buts but whether you agree or not, that is his approach to TMS "cures" and I will take his advice as gospel, thank you very much.
In a nutshell, he is awesome. I wish yuo could all see him. I drove up in misery, home in euphoria that I saw this wonderful man who got me back on track to end the misery I have been enduring.
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| 20 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| tennis tom |
Posted - 02/26/2007 : 12:50:39
quote:
Originally posted by jcharley
TT said:
"BUT that is not saying that EVERY injury or condition IS TMS--just a great many. From reading the books, I guess-timate very generaly 80% TMS / 20% legitimate."
TT;
I am not sure I would define it as either TMS or legitimate.
All pain is legitimate ... emotional or physical based.
jch
--------------------------------------------------------------
I appreciate your reply. I'm just using the terminology found in TMS books to differentiate between pain who's onset is caused by a mindbody mechanism (psychosomatic, or psychogenic) versus trauma.
TMS pain is definitely real pain, with an infinite number of autonomic bodily mechanisms causing it. It is not usualy harmful or degenerative, (let's not go into auto-immune things like cancer or arthritis in this thread or we will really muddy the gray matter waters).
I use the term legitmate or structural to mean relatively the same thing: injury due to a traumatic "real world' origin like being run-over by a bus and breaking bones and crushing organs. In my terms (and I believe also Dr. Sarno's) that would be termed "legitimate" or "structural".
That being said, your bones and organs fully heal from the bus incident, but you still have lingering, un-dx'able pain from having a bad day or a bad life. The pain that was legitimate/structrual, may have morphed into TMS chronic pain. Now the question, "what possible in-attention placed the unfortuante person in front of that bus?", would be more of a psychological/philosophical one. Is anythng in life really an accident?
The language of TMS is not always precise and a TMS dx can be more of an art than a science these days. I hope that wasn't too pedantic or academic an answer. Feel free if you have any follow-up questions, that's what the board is primarily here for (IMHO), he, he.
Welcome to the board JC, and don't let me scare you off. I'm just a loveable pacifistic/anarchist. Gotta' run now and load-up my 84 year-old dad and his wheel-chair into the Landcruiser and take him to the Indian casino to push some slots. |
| jcharley |
Posted - 02/26/2007 : 05:03:37
TT said:
"BUT that is not saying that EVERY injury or condition IS TMS--just a great many. From reading the books, I guess-timate very generaly 80% TMS / 20% legitimate."
TT;
I am not sure I would define it as either TMS or legitimate.
All pain is legitimate ... emotional or physical based.
jch |
| tennis tom |
Posted - 02/25/2007 : 21:46:03
Hi Chris,
You need to understand the context of Alexis's quote. She was dropping nocebos (the opposite of placebos) left and right around the board creating doubts for people who needed reasurrance. Doubt is the enemy of "healing" from TMS. Frankly, I didn't understand what she was talking about most of the time since it was couched in such pedantic elitist gibberish--or maybe she's right, I'm just an imbecile and an idiot. She also has not read Dr. Sarno's latest book THE DIVIDED MIND, which would have answered her doubts.
That having been said, Dr. Sarno and all the TMS doctor's in his latest book THE DIVIDED MIND, agree that in regard to getting "cured" from TMS psychosomatic "dis-ease" you must believe 100% that there is nothing structuraly wrong with you in a serious degenerative way. TMS is FUNDAMENTLAIST in that aspect. In order to overcome the Pavlovian conditioning in the mind it is necessary to believe in TMS theory. Any doubt and it doesn't work.
BUT that is not saying that EVERY injury or condition IS TMS--just a great many. From reading the books, I guess-timate very generaly 80% TMS / 20% legitimate.
The best thing to do is read, read, read, the TMS books, especially TDM. If it resonates give it a try. Get checked out by a TMS doctor if you can find one or by the doctor of your choice to rule out anything serious like a tumor. If the tests come back clean, it's a good chance it may be TMS. The amount of time it takes to get "cured" from TMS is the amount of time it takes for your mind to wrap itself around the theory.
Good Luck,
tt
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| chrisb89 |
Posted - 02/25/2007 : 20:01:56
quote:
Originally posted by alexis
Which gets me back to the comment in another topic about how I am tiring of the TMS scene. We moderates rarely have the endurance and energy that comes with fundamentalist fervor. Sometimes that's good, sometimes bad. I have tried to stick around to add a balance on the board, and I have explained why more than once. I hope not many people like me are scared off, because I nearly was and I would have missed out on what I have gained from this board. But no, I don't have your energy or stamina for this. I am almost entirely cured and have other interests to pursue that don't throw this kind of repetitive and tiring barrier in front of me every time I open my mouth.
Well I for one hope you stay. I think it's best to hear from as many people as possible to get the best advice. As someone who has had back pain for three months and really hope this is the cure I want to hear from all sides of the spectrum (even ones where it didn't work).
But I hope Tom and everyone else stays too. It's all about getting over this effing back and neck pain which has taken over my life... |
| alix |
Posted - 02/16/2007 : 22:04:54
Bliss,
Thank you for the correction. English is not my mother tongue.
TT,
Look, in the past after unsuccessfully going from one doctor to another, I found a doctor that said he knew exactly what my problem was and he knew how to treat it. In retrospect, he was a complete quack but after hearing that wonderful news I had a pain free week. I attribute it to the sudden moral boost it gave me. It was of course short lived.
I also see on this board messages like "I visited with Dr.X, he diagnosed me with TMS and I am much better" but I am not sure it lasts.
On the other end, I saw Schechter and it had the opposite effect on me as I posted earlier.
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| tennis tom |
Posted - 02/16/2007 : 19:31:21
quoting Alix:
"I still am a bit puzzled by people who go see TMS doctors and report great results. Usually when you follow them, a few weeks later, they are back to their not so good baseline."
Gotta' call you on that one Alix. That's 180' off from all the clinical evidence done by all TMS doctors, and all the people who have posted here who have seen TMS doctors. What evidence do you have for that statement?
I think the exact oppposite is true. People go to traditional doctors, get surgery for back-pain, feel good for a while and then their pain returns and are told the surgery failed and need more surgery. |
| Bliss |
Posted - 02/16/2007 : 16:15:59
I almost see a parallel with those guys cured by televangelists that throw away their crotches and start to walk. Isn't it some adrenaline rush that eventually fades away?
[/quote]
I couldn't resist injecting some humour...."throw away their CROTCHES?"  
Bliss |
| alix |
Posted - 02/16/2007 : 13:30:38
quote:
Originally posted by JohnO
Alix, I had been failed by conventional medicine with surgeries, procedures, pills and other torture and no relief. I was told I had levator syndrome and nothing has worked. They tossed pills at me and basically told me to get lost. So, when all conventional medical failed, I turned back to TMS which helped me so much for neck pain 8 years ago. I already knew Sarno's teachings so it was easy but I needed the sit-down with Dr. Sopher to really put it all together.
Dr. Sopher convinced me to think 100% psychological and all the other Sarno teachings and I am sooooooooo much better after 2 days. It is amazing, Alix.
If you want to e-mail me directly with more questions specific to these kinds of problems, I'd be happy to tell you more.
John,
Thanks I will take you on your offer and I am excited for you.
I still am a bit puzzled by people who go see TMS doctors and report great results. Usually when you follow them, a few weeks later, they are back to their not so good baseline.
I almost see a parallel with those guys cured by televangelists that throw away their crutches and start to walk. Isn't it some adrenaline rush that eventually fades away? |
| tennis tom |
Posted - 02/15/2007 : 23:48:46
quote:
Originally posted by Stryder
Why has JohnO's good thread on the good Dr. Sopher been hijacked?
New threads are free. If you would, kindly move this over to an appropriate flame-o-thread. Thanks, -Stryder
Splendid idea Stryder. I'll start a new thread. This is a good example of the irrational nature of TMS and it's non-linearity.
JohnO, no worries, we're all rootin' for ya'! Thanks for sharing your success story and keep up the good work!
Cheers,
tt  |
| wrldtrv |
Posted - 02/15/2007 : 23:23:54
Alexis,
In answer to your question (why some choose a rigid, unquestioning belief), I think it comes down to personality type. Whether actually religious or not (TT says he is not and I'll take his word for it), there are people who NEED to believe 100%--whether TMS, relgion, a political leader--because they need the black and white guarantee to quiet their anxieties and give them a feeling of security. The reason for the religious references on this thread is because, typically, this "true believer" personality implies a religiously dogmatic person, but it need not be. |
| alexis |
Posted - 02/15/2007 : 22:26:03
Hi Karen,
I think the key to what you're experiencing is that it works for you and that you have recognized what works for your brain and what you need to do to work most efficiently on recovery.
And I'm willing to believe that it is possible, even likely, that believing 100% might be required for over 50% of patients, which would make it a reasonable thing for the doctors to be pushing (again, these are primarily practicing physicians, not scientists, so they are saying what they believe will make most patients get well).
What I don't understand is why some people are unwilling to accept that this type of faith might not be necessary for everyone. And further, that since some of us aren't ever going to be capable of jumping in and believing something like this 100%, that we should be told not even to discuss our methods of dealing with this. That is what has seemed unfair in some of the conversation that came before.
It's as though some folks want to believe that we all have to be exactly like them. It reminds me of those who when I tell them I am a determinist say "Oh, no, you can't be. No one could function like that." What, I'm lying? I don't believe in free will, and I function just fine. I didn't believe 100% in TMS and I got better. Am I hurting someone by saying this? Should not those of us who function mentally a little differently be also allowed to partake and learn from what Sarno has to offer?
Alexis |
| Singer_Artist |
Posted - 02/15/2007 : 22:19:45
You are right, Stryder...I did wait awhile to throw my two cents in because I didn't want to take away from JohnO's joy..Forgive me...
I did congratulate him on his progress earlier in the thread..I have had many of my posts get hyjacked..That is a great adjective to describe what sometimes naturally happens..No one means any harm, however..
Take care,
Karen |
| Stryder |
Posted - 02/15/2007 : 22:12:19
Why has JohnO's good thread on the good Dr. Sopher been hijacked?
New threads are free. If you would, kindly move this over to an appropriate flame-o-thread. Thanks, -Stryder |
| Singer_Artist |
Posted - 02/15/2007 : 21:37:46
Hi Alexis,
I just want to say that I have a hard time, sometimes, believing that my neck situation is all TMS..Sometimes I really wonder if it is partly physical...I really wish I never questioned it because it seems that the likelihood of Sarno's theories working is higher when you accept the diagnosis 100 percent...I have had improvement even while partly believing the diagnosis..but I still struggle and have relapses...Probably because the stress in my life remains and has even gotten more intense of late..So, i find comfort in your saying that I can still get well even if I have some doubts..
There are other things out there that help people, no doubt..But, Sarno's theories have helped a whole lot of people with TMS..My brain is both right and left dominated..I analyze way too much, and I am very creative in my thinking being an artist and musician..
Faith is a fascinating subject to me...I have alot of Faith for example as a practicing Christian ( A Jew for Jesus, actually)...(watch me get attacked about that..i did in the past..) in any case..Although I have alot of faith in Yeshua, there are times that I have doubts...I even have doubts about whether this reality is actually REAL...Now I sound like I am on acid, lol..but seriously..there are soooo many unexplained things in this world..Quantum Physics is utterly fasinating to me as many other things like UFO's, remote viewing, etc..interest me..So I am what you would call an open minded Christian..I also don't try to push my beliefs on others and I am tolerant of other's beliefs as long as no one gets hurt..WHew...what a tangent! Must be the meds, lol again...Anyway...bottom line...A Leap of Faith sure couldn't hurt..I think if you put 100 percent Faith in the Sarno method or even just the power of your own mind to heal your body..both will work..The key is to have Faith! For me, Faith first in God, everything else is secondary...(Hope I don't get yelled at by anyone...Be gentle about my religious beliefs please, it is relevant to what I am expressing..)..the acute attack to my neck is still a reality, and I don't want to add stress to myself from anyone on here..I am just venting and sharing with Alexis and the rest of my friends on here..
Hugs and God bless,
Karen |
| alexis |
Posted - 02/15/2007 : 21:34:36
TT,
I was actually referring to a woman. She also drove a Hummer when in the military, but was none to crazy about that either if that makes you feel better. This is, btw, so amazingly far from being my area you've no idea. |
| alexis |
Posted - 02/15/2007 : 21:24:19
Hi wrldtrv, Thanks for joining in. I knew I couldn't be totally alone in seeing the weird religiosity going on. It's just like knocking my head against a wall. I've explained that I mostly support Sarno more times than I can count, and as far as I can remember the only issue I've taken with the practice he suggests is saying that you don't have to believe the diagnosis 100% to get better. Since there are several of us here who have got better without believing 100%, it is utterly beyond me how anyone is getting upset with me saying this...except that I've faced the same thing from fundamentalist religious folk, so I'm not that surprised.
I've also explained several times, that while I support critique of Sarno's ideas, I am not myself trying to raise the criticisms precisely because I, personally, am not interested in interferring with those who are helped by this "faith" type experience. I only bring up the fact that I have doubts to let others, like myself, know that they can benefit without believing every detail. I just want people to give this a chance.
Can you help tell me if I am somehow not being clear, because these folk seem to be completely incapable of understanding what seems to be very clear language. Have I explained something wrong or is it just not possible to explain these things to people who actively want to be unquestioning religious fundamentalists? |
| tennis tom |
Posted - 02/15/2007 : 21:01:16
quoting Alexis:
"The only person I know with a Jeep is by no means 100% satisfied. But if the board you are on is as fanatical as you imply, I'll be staying away from those boards."
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It's cool you have a friend with a Jeep, you've come up a notch in my book for that. Does he wheel it or is it a mallcrawler?
Could you please get him on the board, I'd like to talk to him about his heep and find out what problems he's having. Maybe I could help him solve them.
You're right the Heep boards are not a fit place for women and children, it's a guy thing, but there are a few gals who hang out there. |
| tennis tom |
Posted - 02/15/2007 : 20:41:09
I don't know where all this God talk, cult, religion crap is coming from, certainly NOT from me! It's all about following the Good Doctor's instructions.
When your doctor gives you a prescription for meds or a course of physical therapy for a structural injury, do you go out of the office and say to yourself, "I think he's just half right so I will only take half the dosage" or do half the prescribed physical therapy. On rx bottles it always says to take the full course of the medication even if you are feeling better.
Dr. Sarno says "TMS knowledge" is the "penicillin" required to cure TMS. Why, in Dr. Sarno's case, do you take only the portion of the "knowledge medication" that YOU decide, rather than the full dosage?
This has nothing to do with religion, cultism or reverence. It just has to do with following directions. All this religion stuff is in YOUR heads, not mine. I am one of the least religiouly observant of people's on the planet.
Regards,
tt
From Fallon, Nevada (a pleasant 55') |
| wrldtrv |
Posted - 02/15/2007 : 19:55:48
Alexis,
I couldn't agree with you more. The way I see it, if the TMS theory, or we as believers in this theory, are not open to questioning it, it is not worth much. I doubt even Sarno would be so cultish about it.
Candace Pert, who is mentioned often on this board and admired, even by TT, refers favorably to Sarno in her new book, but that doesn't stop her from also saying good things about other practices that might even conflict with TMS, such as chiropractic. I figure if a scientist of the stature of Pert can be open-minded about these things, so can I.
A couple of points:
1--Sarno is NOT God.
2--TMS is not a religion (or shouldn't be).
I'm here because the TMS ideas have worked for me. I'll continue to study and practice these ideas precisely because they have been helpful for me, but I will also freely partake of any other ideas or practices that I find interesting or helpful. Whatever works. If I wanted to practice "born-again TMS-ism" maybe I would get saved instead. |
| alexis |
Posted - 02/15/2007 : 14:55:59
Warning: Sensitive souls who might, as has been implied, have their psyches crushed by hearing that not everyone thinks every aspect of Sarno is 100% accurate should not read on.
For the record, I didn't start this twist in this thread. mizlorinj started this subject by saying it was "Sad so many doubters post here" and then citing as example at least one case of something I had recently posted. Once someone states on a thread that it is sad that someone like me is posting, I think it is open for me to respond to that statement. And also, for the record, I consider myself a Sarno fan for the greatest part. Anything to the contrary comes from a gross misreading of my posts.
quote:
Originally posted by h2oskier25
I can't help but wonder how JohnO must feel right now. He has a great visit with Sopher, feels better already, wants to sing it from the rooftops to his fellow TMS sufferers --- and along comes somebody to say we should all be debating weather or not Sarno's principles work.
I can only assume you are talking about me here since I'm the only one not down on my knees in prayer. But where did I ever suggest that I wanted to debate whether his principles work? I do think there is a place for that, but if you look back over the last few months I have never said I didn't think the basic methods worked, nor have I engaged in trying to call Sarno a quack. I, myself, raised the question more than once of separating this into a help board and a more intellectual discussion board, and many people assured me that the two subjects could live together--something I have doubted from the beginning.
quote:
Originally posted by h2oskier25
This board is (or should be) about helping people to APPLY SARNO'S PRINCIPLES to their particular pain and suffering. The people with pain and suffering need it.
...I, too, feel a "Sarno..Truth or quackery" board should be started by those wishing to debate Sarno philosophies.
Again, last time this came up people didn't seem to like the idea of a support only board. I was, in fact, criticized just for calling this a "support board". Folks seemed to think they could handle discussion. Apparently, this isn't true.
quote:
Originally posted by Tennis Tom
Welcome to the real world Alexis. Life is NOT FAIR!
I don't even know what this is about.
quote:
Originally posted by Tennis Tom
I don't feel I know anything about you, accept you're quite a deep thinker and statistician. Unfotunately TMS by defintion doesn't lend itself to your kind of thinking.
Are you saying that only irrational people who abandon logic and statistics can understand TMS? I would love you to quote this to Dr. Sarno.
quote:
Originally posted by Tennis Tom
Alexis, sorry to hear you are cutting and running...Most of what leads to success in life is just showing up.
"Cut and run"? I said I was going to taper off my posting, as this was tiring, and frankly getting a little boring. You said you were also going to taper off ("I will be tapering-off from posting here"). Yet I'm accused of "cutting and running"? Something odd (or obvious) going on here in the way you are representing each of us?
quote:
Originally posted by Tennis Tom
You are wrong about your stat's on what goes on at Jeep board. They are not 55%-45% Jeep vs Hummer. They are 100% Jeep.
First of all, I'm not sure from your comment if you understood me. I didn't mean the posts were 55% Jeep, and 45% hummer. I meant some people on the board had bought a Jeep even though they were only 55% in favor of the decision. I was working on your analogy. I have no real insight on the mentality that makes one buy either of these vehicles. Pick whatever closest competitor you like and fill in the blank. The only person I know with a Jeep is by no means 100% satisfied. But if the board you are on is as fanatical as you imply, I'll be staying away from those boards.
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