| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Victoria008 |
Posted - 02/07/2007 : 16:02:03
My pain started 3 years ago. At the time it really freaked me out (it still does sometimes). I am a bit of a hypochondriac and am very sensitive to any feeling my body has. I have also suffered from panic disorder since I was 18. So I have always had a lot of strange symptoms, they would scare me until I figured out they were just "nerves". I had all kinds of crazy symptoms, a long list. But there was never pain. I did hurt my back years ago and every so often it would go "out", but I wasn't scared cuz if I just stretched and took it easy for a few days, it would return to normal. Anyway, I noticed my legs felt "funny" sort of achy and shaky. Then I got a pain in the middle of my upper back, like a kink. My lower back started bothering me, I became achy etc. But what really scared me a pain around my chest area. It was hard to pinpoint where the pain was, lower, like in my sternum or ribs. Then it would travel around to my upper back. It would come and go and feel differently, sometimes a pressure like gas, sometimes like a band around my body squeezing me, sometimes sharp, sometimes dull. It was hard to explain to the Dr. I also had periods of my heart pounding. Very uncomfortable and scary. I ended up at the ER twice. I went to the Dr. many times and was told different things and had several tests and ended up with a diagnosis of fibromyalgia. My legs bothered me a lot too, it seemed to affect my walking, they would feel heavy and ache, and then I would feel off balance and became afraid. I still have a hard time, like going to the mall, etc. This was an extremely scary time for me. I have read two of Dr Sarno's books and I will write more later about my progress. I am grateful for this forum and for the support.
Victoria
Victoria |
| 20 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| alexis |
Posted - 03/04/2007 : 09:53:36
Very nicely put Dave. I agree with everything you say -- except maybe small parts of the second to last paragraph. And even there the details are unimportant.
Yes, a more detailed story is good for some people, and we should all pick and choose what parts are important for us to get it to work. I think everyone excepts incomplete stories all the time, and without them the human species would not function. That's why outside of a research context I see no need to hash out too often the details of various holes or inaccuracies some may feel exist in any part of the theories.
"Belief" is a fuzzy word, but I'm not sure that you get away from the problem by using "accept". I think we just have to "accept" that our "belief" relationships to Sarno's theories may differ, and that varying approaches are working for different people. Those who relate to the postings of one recovered person can read those postings, and those who relate to another can read those. That's what I did in using this board as an aid to my recovery. |
| Dave |
Posted - 03/04/2007 : 09:20:28
When it comes to treating TMS, it is important to accept that the symptoms are psychogenic.
As for "belief" and "faith" -- everyone seems to have their own definitions of those words, so I don't like to use them, especially since for some people they take on a religious or spiritual meaning.
You do not have to "believe" in the details of Dr. Sarno's theory. He is postulating theories as to the inner workings of TMS based on extensive clinical experience. But those details are mostly irrelevant.
Is it really oxygen deprivation? Reduced blood flow? Or maybe something far more complicated that we cannot yet comprehend?
Is it really our "unconscious" mind producing the symptoms? This is really just a metaphor. We don't really have two minds.
These explanations serve to "prove" TMS to our rational, intellectual and analytical selves. Most people (especially those with advanced medical training) will not accept that there are some things we just don't understand fully. Dr. Sarno's theory would be far less effective if he said "TMS symptoms are psychogenic but we really have no idea how or why."
But the fact is, if you are willing to accept that last statement, it is good enough. How TMS works is irrelevant. Why symptoms occur is critical. We simply must accept that the pain is psychogenic, caused by inner emotional conflicts of which we are consciously unaware. The primitive part of our brain is trying to protect us from feeling "dangerous" emotions.
Our bodies often produce symptoms as a protective, yet unnecessary action. TMS is just another example of that. But because it cannot be proven in a lab or explained by a rational well-understood process, many are unwilling to accept it. Dr. Sarno's theory paints a picture that makes TMS easier to understand, even if there are holes or inaccuracies in that theory, which is likely, since it would be arrogant of us to believe that we truly know exactly what goes on inside our bodies. |
| alexis |
Posted - 03/03/2007 : 19:19:52
quote:
Originally posted by shawnsmith
quote:
Originally posted by art
[quote]Originally posted by alexis
I'd say my faith in TMS has never been higher than around 50 percent, and yet I've had very good success..
That above statement is riddled with contradictions.
Hi Shawn, could you edit your comment above so it is clear which of us made the statement you are referring to? The way it is quoted it actually looks as though I made the 50% statement when it was actually Art. I have, in fact, believed over half of Sarno's theories (depending on how you calculate it) with a belief level up around 80-90% (varies depending on the particular part of the theories) -- although I have no objections whatsoever to Art's level of belief and his success. If it works at 50% for him, that's great and I wish him well.
Sorry to nit-pick...I just would like who said what and what you are objecting to to be clear if you folks are going to hash this all out again. |
| shawnsmith |
Posted - 03/03/2007 : 13:58:10
quote:
Originally posted by art
[quote]Originally posted by alexis
I'd say my faith in TMS has never been higher than around 50 percent, and yet I've had very good success..
That above statement is riddled with contradictions.
*************
Sarno-ize it!
************* |
| art |
Posted - 02/11/2007 : 13:17:18
quote:
Originally posted by alexis
I have never believed 100% and neither have quite a lot of the people here. We don't have a scientific analysis comparing success rates to percent beleif, but it is certainly possible to recover without 100% belief, and moreso without 100% belief at the outset. I'm going to guess you might want to target something over 50%, though, and the amount of belief needed will be different for different people.
This is quite right...I don't believe in anything 100 percent, much less an unproven theory that posits all sort of unseen and unseeable processes....
I'd say my faith in TMS has never been higher than around 50 percent, and yet I've had very good success.. |
| tennis tom |
Posted - 02/10/2007 : 18:06:15
quote:
Originally posted by Victoria008
A couple of times he told me "Mark my words, you will know what this feels like" He left in June and don't you know by November 2004, I was afraid to stand in the voting line! Coincidence? Hmmmm.
Victoria
Possibly an excellent example of the power of suggestion on the unconscious mind. |
| Victoria008 |
Posted - 02/10/2007 : 13:36:40
Wow, what a lot of great advice! This is very helpful. I really related to not wanting to tell the Dr all symptoms cuz there were so many. I do exactly that! I have been going about once a month (and this is without insurance, a community health center) and each time I bring up something different! I feel so foolish! I go there and wonder, what symptom will I have this time and should I bring it up!! Fear, fear, fear. Seems to be such a common thread, it has certainly played a huge part in my life.
I wanted to mention an interesting part to my story: Three years ago when this all started I was breaking up with my fiance of 9 years. He had spent the previous 3 years with an unexplained "illness" that the Drs could not diagnose and left him with terrible pain. I could not understand what he was going through and although I tried to be supportive it hurt our relationship as he spent most of his time in bed and became addicted to heavy pain pills. As we were breaking up he said it was because I could not deal with what he was going through, that I did not believe in his pain. Many of my friends thought it was an excuse to take pills and withdraw from life. A couple of times he told me "Mark my words, you will know what this feels like" He left in June and don't you know by November 2004, I was afraid to stand in the voting line! Coincidence? Hmmmm.
Victoria |
| armchairlinguist |
Posted - 02/10/2007 : 13:27:00
Kelvin, great post. I never thought about that distinction but I think it is accurate. Accepting means you don't try to think it is anything else or take any other kind of actions for it. It's related to the idea that working at the belief is important. If you doubt mentally, but then you go and journal and keep on with your activities, and try to banish the doubt back, then you accept that it's TMS regardless of the little disbeliefs your mind will keep throwing up (probably as a defense mechanism).
--
Wherever you go, there you are. |
| JohnO |
Posted - 02/10/2007 : 12:45:22
Thanks for all the encouraging posts. What I really want Dr. Sopher's opinion on is how to determine whether the lower GI stuff is structural or psychological. In Divided Mind there is a chapter on this and the distinguishment is not always easy. The medical people can try injections (Botox, believe it or not) for the misery (this is more misery than pain, I wish it was just pain)but I have held off becaause if it is really TMS, I must "repudiate the physical" as we all know so well so why I had improvement for 6 weeks and it has regressed to abject misery is beyond me but I am looking forward to my consult with Dr. Sopher and will let you all know after my Wednesday appointment if there are interesting things to share form the experiencs. |
| Littlebird |
Posted - 02/10/2007 : 11:27:27
Wow, Kelvin, that's a great post. I think the cigarette analogy works well for pointing out the difference between believing and accepting.
I've been thinking lately about the process of re-training the unconscious mind. I've been comparing it to driving, to help myself realize that I can change my unconscious reactions as well as my conscious ones, because when we start out driving we think about each situation and action, but with repetition the unconscious mind begins to take over. When I ride with my son and find myself suddenly trying to mash on an imaginary brake, even though I'm not consciously thinking of driving, it makes me feel confident that I can change my thoughts and reactions in both parts of my brain, just like I learned to drive.
JohnO, I hope you'll let us know how your doctor visit goes and how you progress with your TMS efforts. Hope things are better for you soon. |
| tennis tom |
Posted - 02/10/2007 : 10:14:43
JohnO, If you're seeing Dr. Sopher next week you ARE doing everything that you can do that I would recommend. He has done numerous marathons and is a tennis player like me. In my TMS book he would be the difinitive source for a TMS answer. I wish I could see him and maybe I will.
One thing that I note is that you exhibit a great sense of impatience and frustration, understandabley. If you have TMS, that is a TMS personality trait. I would take some comfort in that you are going to see one of the foremost experts on TMS on the planet who practices what he preaches in the physical relm to the extreme.
I think he will be able to give you an accurate dx. I am not a doctor and I have my own issues with TMS and my hip. I would not look to me for your answer. I'm not a doctor, don't know anything about your psyche or physiology. Only a fool would dx such a potentialy complex "dis-ease" as TMS over what is essentialy a TV screen.
Good Luck to you at the Good Doctor Sopher's next week and I am (semi) anxiously awaiting what he has to tell you. PLEASE let us know what happens thouroughly.
Regards,
tt |
| JohnO |
Posted - 02/10/2007 : 09:55:13
But Tennis Tom, I AM doing all the normal things I have always done fighting this like there is no tomorrow and the misery continues. Today I ran 8 miles in agony mostly but I won't surrender. I keep telling myslef its 100% psychological. I had neck pain and lower GI pain. The neck pain is gone but the GI continues. Tom, how do I get rid of this? I see Dr. Sopher next week becaause I live in the northeast and he is nearby. I so belive in Sarno but this isn't going away, if anything its worse, and I have this small reservation that thinks it may be physcial because the doctor explained it that way. |
| tennis tom |
Posted - 02/09/2007 : 19:35:47
Quoting JohnO:
" But how can you get your mind to believe 100% that it is TMS? I have tried so hard over and over telling myslef that and am not getting better. I think my brain won't let go of that tiny little reservation of it being physical because that was what I was told so long before I re-discovered Sarno's theories. How exactly do you get to the 100% thinking? It is frustrating."
----------------------------------------------------------------
What you do is return to normal activity and do the things you were afraid to do before you learned about TMS. When you do those activities, you will gain the confidence to believe that TMS theory is correct.---------------------------------------------------------------------
From Dr. John Sarno's THE DIVIDED MIND:
Chapter 10: "A Family Doctor's Experience With Mindbody Medicine"
by Marc Soper, M.D.
Page 347:
"Why do some people, who agree they have TMS, get better more quickly, others more slowly?...
...Why do some people feel better after just reading my book or one of Dr. Sarno's books?
I have puzzled over this and concluded that the "rapid" healers are somehow better able to put aside what they have been told in the past and fully integrate the TMS information. They can undo the conditioning that is part of mainstream thought and replace it with this new understanding of how the workings of the unconscious can affect the body and physical sensation."
Dr. Sopher's website is: www.themindbodysyndrome.com |
| h2oskier25 |
Posted - 02/09/2007 : 15:13:14
Victoria,
About believing 100%. It's a process, not an event. Remember, the lower parts of your brain are trying real hard to persist with the whole distraction mechanism.
Don't be obsessive about believing 100%. Just focus on the PROCESS of telling yourself over and over that it's 100% TMS, and you will win out. Sarno has referred to it as the battle of the wills. Your conscience will overrides the unc will with repitition, so just keep it up.
Regards,
Beth |
| alexis |
Posted - 02/09/2007 : 14:19:05
quote:
Originally posted by armchairlinguist
Do we ever believe anything 100%?
A few doubts are normal. We all wonder at the outset "Will this work?"
I think some people maybe do believe things 100%. I don't think I do, but I don't want to doubt those who say they do.
John--As for what Sarno says, I think he's a smart guy, but I don't think we need to treat what he says as "biblical truth". Sure the doctors saying you have to believe 100%, and I know that there's a large faction here who want to believe Sarno and all are above the failings of other physicians. But can't you see how this possibly a-little-less-than-truth works to their (and sometimes the patients') benefit?
It is not necessarily the case that everything they say is true, or that they believe everything they say.
By the way, I think Einstein was pretty smart, but I also think God may well play dice. Smart folks who make contributions can be very wrong. Just look at all the neuroscientists who thought the brain could never grow new cells. Aristotle couldn't even count teeth.
We've gone through this before. I'm just not likely to ever be a Sarno purist. I guess I don't really do pure. |
| armchairlinguist |
Posted - 02/09/2007 : 13:22:15
Do we ever believe anything 100%?
A few doubts are normal. We all wonder at the outset "Will this work?"
Working to overcome them, rather than indulging them and letting them feed on each other and us, is probably what's essential.
--
Wherever you go, there you are. |
| JohnO |
Posted - 02/09/2007 : 12:11:50
I don't know, Alexis. Sarno seesm pretty clear that it must be 100% and I have an e-mail from Dr. Sopher who I will be seeeing soon that reads it must be 100%. I just don't know. Maybe this is good for a separate topic. |
| Littlebird |
Posted - 02/09/2007 : 11:55:19
Victoria,
You asked about multiple symptoms; I've had so many symptoms that I found it embarrassing to list them all for doctors, because I knew they'd think I was nuts. I had a book on Fibro which listed over a hundred symptoms that are supposedly associated, and I had over 90. That was before I started having neurological type symptoms, which were thought to possibly be Multiple Sclerosis. As Tom has suggested, I think of Fibro as TMS now, but it was an easy change for me to make because when I first got sick I was under tremendous physical and emotional stress. As I said, I believed it was psychosomatic all along, but I used to fear that my stress was damaging my immune system or some such thing and causing the physical symptoms. When I was first told of CFS and later of Fibro, it made me feel like I was being validated as having real symptoms, rather than imagined ones, but it also created that fear that my emotions were damaging my body, so learning about TMS has been the most reassuring thing. I know that stress/fear/anger does affect the body, because of the effects of stress chemicals, but now I don't have that fear that it's causing me severe, irreversible damage.
Since I learned of TMS, some of the symptoms that cleared up quickly were severe pain in my hands and arms that I'd been told was tendonitis, neurological pain and numbness and parasthesia (wierd sensations) from the waist to the feet, including leg weakness severe enough that I used a cane. The neuro type stuff also affected my balance, which is much better now. I do still experience aching in my feet and legs when I'm up for a while, like shopping, so I'm still controlling that with pain medication until I make more progress. But I now think of this pain as TMS, not Fibro, and possibly somewhat due to the deconditioning of my muscles from being inactive for so long (19 years). I do sometimes tell people who have no knowledge of TMS that I have Fibro, because it's a word they know is associated with pain, but I don't think of it that way myself. I also have stopped having frequent chest pain. It occasionally comes back, but I can track it to a psychological event when it does. That's not to say I would tell someone not to be concerned by chest pain, but if you've been checked out thoroughly and you can track it to psychological events, it's more likely to be TMS. I also stopped having a chronic tooth ache that I'd had for over two years and jaw pain that radiates, like TMJ. That still flares up occasionally, but I immediately think of it as a psychosomatic reaction and it goes away quickly, in minutes usually.
One of the big keys for me has been to learn to do that psychological thinking, rather than thinking about possible physical causes of symptoms. I've learned to ask myself, what could be bothering me and why. Sometimes I have to keep going with the "why's" to really get to the source. For example, I have recently been wondering why it is that I feel a strong need to suppress emotions that result from empathy when I see people suffering somehow, even on television. Each time a reason would come, then I'd ask again, why, what's behind this reason. I finally got down to the true source--the fact that my mother was very emotional and as a child I did not want to be like her. It was a surprise, because I'd long ago forgotten about that feeling on a conscious level, but it was still at work in my unconscious. This switch in thinking is also helping my depression and anxiety to not be as severe. One of the challenges for me is to remember that I can acknowledge emotions without necessarily changing my personality or situation. I tell myself that, and I tell other people that, but I still find my thinking reverting to old ways at times.
Give yourself time to overcome your fears, but don't give up on the TMS concept. Take care, Corey |
| alexis |
Posted - 02/09/2007 : 11:14:51
I have never believed 100% and neither have quite a lot of the people here. We don't have a scientific analysis comparing success rates to percent beleif, but it is certainly possible to recover without 100% belief, and moreso without 100% belief at the outset. I'm going to guess you might want to target something over 50%, though, and the amount of belief needed will be different for different people. |
| JohnO |
Posted - 02/09/2007 : 08:54:12
But how can you get your mind to believe 100% that it is TMS? I have tried so hard over and over telling myslef that and am not getting better. I think my brain won't let go of that tiny little reservation of it being physical because that was what I was told so long before I re-discovered Sarno's theories. How exactly do you get to the 100% thinking? It is frustrating. |
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