| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| holly |
Posted - 11/20/2006 : 08:23:57
I told him about my neuroma situation. Over the phone he say's it's a tendon. A tendon inflammed by TMS. Called my neuroma "nonsense". Asked if I had a MRI that showed one. You know I didn't have a MRI. Would that conferm it then???????????????? Dr. sarno practically before even hearing what I am going to tell him always decides it is TMS. Seems to me I need a MRI to conferm his point for my on minds sake. then I will truly know what's what right and my mind would be convienced. I didn't even know that a MRI would show a neuroma ! He swears it's a tendon over the phone in 2 seconds. The MRI would be a good test for his theory wouldn't it??????? Wouldn't it!!! |
| 20 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| holly |
Posted - 11/23/2006 : 19:31:25
ok tt. I will try to make some more time to read the new book. maybe, hopefully I will get somewhere.(because this is nowhere!) |
| tennis tom |
Posted - 11/23/2006 : 09:19:26
Thanks for the thouough explanation Holly. For every procedure that is invasive to the body there may be downsides. Cryo sounds like point specific frost-bite. Sarno says your pain is TMS/tendon, the podiatrist says it's a nerve. You've got a difference of opinion there. Which is it? Which doc is right? Is it a tendon or is it a nerve? A good car mechanic can come up with a better dx than that.
A new procedure, huh? Because it's new it must be good?--bad idea. People keep throwing articles at me about two inch hip-replacement incisions. Now another hip procedure, "resurfacing" the acetabulum rather than amputating the ball of the femur. This procedure has just been approved by the FDA and the English doc from Birmingham who developed it has performed over 2000. If I weren't a TMS'er, I would be sold on this procedure after reading the glowing article I was handed. He's the doc I would want IF I would ever think of doing anything surgical.
That nerve in your foot was put there by the celestial archetect for a reason and you want to freeze it to death so you can wear high-heels. It seems thats's takeing a big risk for very little functioning in return; what if you get gangrene?--and your foot has to be amputated, that wouldn't be very attractive.
Dr. Sarno does not say everything is TMS! About 80% of what people are in the waiting room for is TMS. The Good Doctor is one of the few docs on the planet who has the years of clinical experience to separate the wheat from the chaff.
Holly, have the negative things that can happen from the cryo been explained to you? If so what are they?
Don't look for support for surgery here, this is the TMS board.
Happy Thanksgiving,
tt
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| holly |
Posted - 11/23/2006 : 06:44:13
tt remember that I am the one asking for the MRI not some podiatrist. It became my idea only after Sarno asked me if I had one done determining that I have a neuroma. Since I didn't have anything besides what the first podiatrist diagnosed Sarno on the phone immediatly dismissed it as TMS. I could of called Sarno with anything and it would of been dismissed as TMS. I think just about any past patient that calls him he would say "TMS"! That's his job to say that to a TMS prone patient. The only procedure that I might consider is this new in office cryotherapy where they actually freeze the nerve. It is suppose to work very well. I would never go thru surgery for this. I did see a 2nd. podiatrist who is the only one around here trained to preform Cryo who actually told me to wait, that it might just go away because it was from one time trama. So I would wait either way. It seems that this is a common problem that once the neuroma is removed or now even better frozen the pain goes awzy for good. Things can possibly happen, even to us TMS inflicted ones!
PS: for Kevin.. I guess you have given me something to be thankfull for today! Things could always be alot worse I guess! lol
Happy Thanksgiving all
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| tennis tom |
Posted - 11/22/2006 : 19:09:29
So, if the MRI comes back and the doctor says, "I recommend surgery otherwise you will always have foot pain", you will forego the surgery? |
| kevin t |
Posted - 11/22/2006 : 12:02:10
Holly.... can I trade my bilateral, constant, stinging, burning, muscle twitching, molten fire, scratchy glass in legs, pins and needles, shooting pain in penis, cramps in calves, stinging in my arse........for your foot neuroma? I promise I will go and play football,basketball,go surfing,and skydiving all in one day. PLEASE???? |
| holly |
Posted - 11/22/2006 : 11:26:17
tt I don't plan on foot surgery. don't/didn't want it. looks like i probably won't get the ins. co. to go for the MRI. Didn't get the final "No" yet but it doesn't look promising. I am not getting worse either and would certianly give it some more time anyway to see how it goes. |
| tennis tom |
Posted - 11/22/2006 : 09:34:11
Well it's seems your well on your way to foot surgery. You are ignoring one of the fundamentals of TMS, imaging, x-rays, mri's ct's all turn up normal anomalies. Nobody on the planet has a perfect skeleton. No doubt your foot doctor will point out a "bumpy cloudy thingy". If he's hungry he will recommend surgery. If not, and your pain persists, you will seek out more foot doctor opinions until one surgicaly resonates.
All I can tell you is the people I've known who've had foot surgery go around for a very long time wearing very unattractive post-surgical ortho-footies and bandages for weeks. They have a very long post surgical recovery and are in much visible pain. The funny thing is that before their foot surgery I would NEVER have known they had any foot pain. They were in much more visible pain after their surgery.
I've known several foot doctors over the years including one who was a professor at a foot college, that I visited. I never thought of them as real docs, more like chiros.
You've already got a history of surgery, putting breast plants in then taking them out. This foot thing is all connected to your desire to wear hi-heels. I would certainly not put myself through all the possible negative outcomes of undergoing the knife for something so un-important, staph infections, severed nerves, drop-foot. Before you go through the surgical approach you better carefully review all the negative outcomes that could occur.
If this puts a dampner on a surgical solution--I SURE HOPE SO. This is the TMS board, what would anyone expect? What I can't fathom is you have been a patient of Dr. Sarno's and once the Good Doctor takes you on, he takes responsiblity for you for life, inviting and encouraging calls for any new symptoms. Why don't you see him first rather than last? A lot of us here would be thrilled to have him as our primary celestial doctor. |
| Dave |
Posted - 11/22/2006 : 08:13:49
quote:
Originally posted by holly
My gut instinct is it is a small neuroma. Hopefully I am wrong.
OK, so what will you differently if the MRI shows it is a neuroma? Stretching? Physical therapy? Anti-inflammatories? Ice? Heat?
What is it about the word neuroma that is so scary? Why is it that if an MRI shows a little something that it has to cause pain?
Anyway, I think I made my point. TMS-prone people need to spend their lives being careful not to feed the gremlin. |
| holly |
Posted - 11/22/2006 : 07:18:33
Here's my theory: I think I have a real injury that may have some Tquote:
Originally posted by wrldtrv
This is an interesting topic for me; the question of how to differentiate TMS from a "real" injury. I think that in making this choice we are on highly speculative ground, especially for conditions that SEEM so physical and fit all the symptoms of a physical condition. MS components to keep it alive. This middle view feels comfortable to me because it is logical and flexible. Neither view by itself makes sense, but together they do.
We are on the same page for sure. You know when I don't irritate the spot (wearing anything that presses there or more than sneakers ) it's starts subsiding, not gone but subsiding. Could very well be I am just being impatient and not giving it enough time for sure to get better. There main reason for the MRI is just a test to help see for myself what's if anything is even there or not . Unfortunitly from a forum like this for neuromas inflicted people they don't just usually go away just like that. That is what is getting me worried. If I know it can eventually just go away (and it might) then I would be calmer.
I will try not to let the train run away just yet though!!
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| wrldtrv |
Posted - 11/21/2006 : 23:18:08
This is an interesting topic for me; the question of how to differentiate TMS from a "real" injury. I think that in making this choice we are on highly speculative ground, especially for conditions that SEEM so physical and fit all the symptoms of a physical condition.
I was just thinking about it today re: the shoulder pain I have had for the past several months. I had the same thing two yrs ago and after 4-5 months it went away. Then, I assumed it was a rotator cuff injury and got appropriate care (PT, exercises...). But when I reinjured it a few months ago I tried to view it instead as TMS. Well, while serving to calm my anxiety about it, this strategy hasn't done much for ridding me of the problem. So now I'm thinking, maybe this is a REAL injury. It has all the hallmarks of real. If I look at the symptoms of rotator cuff injury, they're all there. And I know it tends to flare up a day or so after lifting wts. If I don't lift, the problem fades away. Conditioning? Maybe. Somehow I don't think so.
Here's my theory: I think I have a real injury that may have some TMS components to keep it alive. This middle view feels comfortable to me because it is logical and flexible. Neither view by itself makes sense, but together they do. |
| armchairlinguist |
Posted - 11/21/2006 : 11:08:34
quote:
why not the other foot?
That's exactly the kind of question that has been really key to my recovery. Why is our pain asymmetrical when there's nothing hugely asymmetrical about what we do? Why is the pain one place and not another? Most TMS pain truly doesn't make much sense when you think about it.
Holly, I really am not clear why you're so concerned about the neuroma. One common treatment path for a neuroma is to not irritate it and hope it goes away on its own:
quote:
From the Mayo Clinic site:
Your doctor will likely recommend trying conservative approaches first. This may include resting your foot, changing to better-fitting shoes and taking over-the-counter medications to reduce inflammation and relieve pain.
If that's the case, trying TMS theory on it can't hurt. Your level of concern is quite severe given that this is something normally treated with things you're already doing. It makes me suspect the gremlin.
--
Wherever you go, there you are. |
| redskater |
Posted - 11/21/2006 : 08:53:28
Hi Holly, just because you had never heard of foot neuroma doesn't mean you can't develop a pain there. I'd never heard of anyone having tailbone pain and I developed it. It too was TMS. I think there are just places in the body that are good trigger points for pain. I've got a nerve on the top of one foot that is causing me intermittent pain, I'm in skating boots a good part of the day, why not the other foot? I had a bout a couple of weeks ago where it felt like knives in my ribs, transfered back and forth. Our brain just finds spots. I've quit trying to figure out the why and the where and do the work.
I hope for your sake it isn't anything serious. Hopefully the MRI will give you peace of mind whatever it is. I don't believe that you can just expect everything that happens to us to be TMS but boy the likelyhood seems pretty high is TMS prone people. Our brains are really smart at it.
Good luck.
Gaye |
| tennis tom |
Posted - 11/21/2006 : 08:33:49
A common trait of those haveing foot TMS is NO sense of humor.
What have your feet done to you to enrage you so much that you put them through such torture, cramming them into such an unnatural postition all in the name of vanity?
quote:
Originally posted by holly
[quote]Originally posted by tennis tom
I bet on your tombstone it's gonna' say :
"Here Lies Holly, Died With Her Four Inch Heels On"
Boy.... can't help but wonder what women out there has you so enraged????? Are you related to Sienfeld's "kramer"???
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| holly |
Posted - 11/21/2006 : 08:17:05
Dave I was only diagnosed over the phone by Sarno. (I saw him about 10 years ago with my back which is now fine). He only made the diagnosis based on my history not a physical exam in his office. He asked me if I got an MRI. I told him no. (It didn't even occur to me about getting an MRI). So The MRI if anything would help differienciate now if there is actually even something in that spot or indeed it is tendernitis caused by TMS. My gut instinct is it is a small neuroma. Hopefully I am wrong. |
| Dave |
Posted - 11/21/2006 : 07:52:54
quote:
Originally posted by holly
if there is a neuroma detected by MRI in the exact spot where my pain is then that would explain everything pretty much as far as I am concerned here.
OK, but then you are forgetting about the finer points of TMS, that symptoms appear at the exact spot of an "abnormality" in order to be most convincing.
quote:
Then I could rest easier.
At least until the gremlin gets you again.
I don't mean to completely dismiss what you are saying. I just find it interesting that you went through the trouble and great expense of getting diagnosed by Dr. Sarno himself, yet it doesn't seem as if you really trust his diagnosis and continue to go down the road of structural explanations for your pain. |
| holly |
Posted - 11/21/2006 : 06:08:44
[quote]Originally posted by tennis tom
I bet on your tombstone it's gonna' say :
"Here Lies Holly, Died With Her Four Inch Heels On"
Boy.... can't help but wonder what women out there has you so enraged????? Are you related to Sienfeld's "kramer"???
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| Nor |
Posted - 11/20/2006 : 21:16:19
Hi Holly,
I had a Morton's neuroma about12 years ago. I was in a cast for a long time and the consensus was that the pressure on the bones of the foot for so long cause irritation of the nerve...not sure why he said "tendon" but anyway....I believe it was a neuroma caused by the cast. However, I was treated w/steroid injections 2X or so and it kept coming back. This, I believe was TMS. Unbeknownst to me at the time. Anyway, it eventually went away and recently came back for about 2 days after trying on a new pair of high boots. Now I wear the boots and I don't get the pain.
To make a long story short, your diagnosis could be legit but if its becoming chronic, then maybe its TMS.
Nor |
| tennis tom |
Posted - 11/20/2006 : 20:57:50
I bet on your tombstone it's gonna' say :
"Here Lies Holly, Died With Her Four Inch Heels On"
 |
| holly |
Posted - 11/20/2006 : 19:51:46
if there is a neuroma detected by MRI in the exact spot where my pain is then that would explain everything pretty much as far as I am concerned here. After Sarno questioned me "did you have a MRI conferming a neuroma?" I googled "Neuroma MRI Diagnosis" and came up with THE ROLE OF MRI IN DIAGNOSIS OF MORTON NEUROMA an in depth study/article. Very interesting and informitive. I feel confident that if they do find this it would explain my radiating pain in this area. I found this most interesting and I quote "The type of shoes worn by women is thought to be the cause of the female predominance. It's commonly seen in the age group (40-60year old). "The most common presentation is pain radiating from the middle part of the foot to the tip of the toes with localized tenderness over the lesion. Morton Neuroma is also presented with numbness of the distal part of the foot".
This is exacty what I have in the exact area it would be in and I never ever heard of mortons neuroma before or new it's symptoms let alone a location of one. So if one is truly now present there on my foot in this case I think that would just explain it. If nothing is there at all well then I guess I have TMS that is presenting itself exactly like mortons neuroma. I hope truly Tennis tom wins his bet! Then I could rest easier. |
| tennis tom |
Posted - 11/20/2006 : 16:58:24
"As Tom said, what looks like a neuroma on an MRI can be a benign, normal change in the body that does not cause pain, much like a herniated disc does not cause pain."
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Gotta' give DrZiggles credit for the above, I think he said it, not me, but with my verbose verbiage, I've probably said everything by now and then some.
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