| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| Hillbilly |
Posted - 10/17/2006 : 09:51:32
Gone! |
| 20 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| miehnesor |
Posted - 07/01/2007 : 22:27:50
Just on curiosity it seems like the first page of this thread is missing. Why is that? |
| PeterW |
Posted - 11/03/2006 : 13:32:52
quote:
I feel there are many modalities that are pure b.s. as well as many that are ligitimate and compatible with TMS. Nobody has a monopoly on the truth.
I couldn't agree more with that Tom. It's been quite a path for me coming to realize how much stuff in both mainstream and alternative medicine really isn't all its cracked up to be. And some is just plain b.s. But I've also found occasional diamonds in both. I've learned to try to keep my mind open while also trusting my own insticts and common sense. Not always an easy balancing act.
Also, that was a really good somatics explanation/comparison Patrick.
Sounds like it could be another angle to help address the conditioning aspect of the problem. |
| tennis tom |
Posted - 11/02/2006 : 15:56:01
I am very happy for Hillbilly's recovery and wished him the best early on in this thread. I am a TMS deovtee and feel it can cure many ills. Dr. Sarno acknowledges "ligitimate" injuries and does not say everything is TMS. During his exams he dx's physical injuries as well as TMS.
I feel there are many modalities that are pure b.s. as well as many that are ligitimate and compatible with TMS. Nobody has a monopoly on the truth.
I would be curious to ask Hillbilly, if he has experienced any emotional/psychological improvements in the life "pressures" area as Dr. Sarno would call it?
In other words, has his psychological well-being improved along with his phyical improvement? |
| FlyByNight |
Posted - 11/02/2006 : 14:11:14
My pleasure Hilary |
| HilaryN |
Posted - 11/02/2006 : 14:06:13
Many thanks, Patrick.
Hilary N |
| FlyByNight |
Posted - 11/01/2006 : 16:38:08
Hilary
Somatics does not address the emotional-physical pain of the mindbody system. It does address the mental picture one has of himself. It is called proprioception. It is simply another dimension of the mindbody. We all have a mental representation of our own body that we construct through our life. This mental picture will, for instance, defines what sequence of muscles are activated to do a particular movement. Such a sequence can be right or it can be wrong depending if you conditionned yourself to move because of fear of injury for example. It is closely related to the conditioning that Sarno is talking about.
This simple ..
TMS deals with the repressed emotions and their impact on the mindbody.
Somatics deals more with the alteration of this body mental picture that can happen when we condition ourlseves to move a certain way....
Somatics is purely learning to decondition yourself....it does not adress the emotional aspect of mindbody disorders in any way. period.
P. |
| HilaryN |
Posted - 11/01/2006 : 16:23:02
I think you've misunderstood, Sean. Nobody's saying Somatics doesn't work. I'm happy that Hillbilly has done us the favour of telling us about it and I'll certainly be passing it on to people as another option to try.
As far as I'm concerned the debate is just about the connection with TMS.
I'm still waiting for an answer to my question as to where repressed emotions fit in with Somatics and I'd be interested to know from someone who's read the book. (I've got too many other books to read at the moment.)
Hilary N |
| Sean |
Posted - 11/01/2006 : 11:31:17
Wow, I'm surprised by these responses. I believe Sarno's biggest hurdle is a closed mind, whether it be from patients or the medical community. Poor Hillbilly mentions something that worked for him and gets all these close minded responses from the "hard-core" TMS'ers. I guess Sarno's right, it is hard to get people to open their minds to new ways of thinking.
I know this is a TMS forum, but I think everyone's goal is to get better. |
| PeterW |
Posted - 11/01/2006 : 10:21:12
quote:
Should somatics be added to this forum ? I guess that depends on whether this forum is purely for TMS or purely for pain relief.
Ive made good progress with sarnos methods but personaly, i see TMS theory as part of a wider picture that includes yoga, tai chi, any other form of excercise, positive thinking, somatics and anything else that may help.
It's been clearly established that this forum is for TMS and emotionally based mindbody symptoms, and not for the more general concept of 'pain relief'. So there's little chance somatics or any other method will be added to the scope of official discussion topics.
But I'll add this: There's an assumption built into TMS theory that basically ALL chronic pain and physical/emotional symptoms that are unexplained by standard medical tests or given certain labels fall under the TMS umbrella. Therefore they are all treatable by TMS approaches, and TMS approaches only. Certainly this is true for a whole lot of people, but whether it is completely true for all is a matter of unresolvable debate. The many that it works magic for obviously will agree but they may hold different opinions than those who struggle or see limited symptom relief.
I'd be willing to bet that had Hillbilly consulted a TMS doctor 6 months ago he would have been diagnosed with TMS. But he responded much better to the somatics approach. That doesn't prove much in the big picture, but it is suggestive that there may be more to the chronic back pain picture for some. But I'm making my own assumption here and as I said, it's an unresolvable debate at present.
Bottom line: If some approach really truely feels right to you, then chances are it will be right for you. |
| armchairlinguist |
Posted - 10/31/2006 : 14:57:23
I'd really like to know more about what Hanna and Somatics say about RSI and CFS. Hillbilly never really answered this for me. (And no, I don't want to go buy and read the book -- unless it has something new and interesting to say. My shelves are already full of books that are useless in light of Sarno.) In the online material, they acknowledge the diagnoses, but this may be only because that will help people identify that this method could help them with what they think they have. If the method doesn't say that these are real diagnoses, or that RSI, etc. are caused by structural or mechanical (ie from activity) problems, then I would be much more interested in this stuff as potentially compatible with Sarno. On the other hand, what Hillbilly said about poor posture being a cause of pain is exactly the opposite of Sarno.
--
Wherever you go, there you are. |
| HilaryN |
Posted - 10/31/2006 : 11:37:32
What does the Somatics book say about the role of emotions?
"Mindbody" is a very wide term.
Although TMS has been changed from Tension Myositis Syndrome to The Mindbody Syndrome, I see TMS as being more specifically about repressed emotions causing pain and other mental and physical conditions. (Not relected in either term.)
The Alexander Technique is "mindbody", but the role of repressed emotions hardly gets a mention, so I see it as being very different from TMS.
Unless Somatics addresses repressed emotions then likewise I can't see the connection with TMS other than sharing the term "mindbody".
Edited:
On the other hand I would see The Journey by Brandon Bayes, for example, as being compatible with TMS because it is a way of accessing hidden emotions and resolving them.
Hilary N |
| neilo |
Posted - 10/31/2006 : 08:42:46
I have read sarnos MBP and divided mind. Im now half way through hannas somatics book thanks to to hillbillys suggestion.
So far i think somatics is compatible with sarno.
Hanna takes a mindbody approach and rejects the structural defect approach of conventional medicine. So far im confortable in adding
somatics to sarnos methods.
Should somatics be added to this forum ? I guess that depends on whether this forum is purely for TMS or purely for pain relief.
Ive made good progress with sarnos methods but personaly, i see TMS theory as part of a wider picture that includes yoga, tai chi, any other form of excercise, positive thinking, somatics and anything else that may help.
nm |
| floorten |
Posted - 10/31/2006 : 04:26:01
quote:
Originally posted by Dave
You are right, I have not read Somatics. I am responding strictly to the messages on this thread, and my feeling that any program that involves "physical movement patterns" and a daily exercise routine is contradictory to TMS.
It's not an exercise regime as you would normally understand it. There's no "working out" of muscles. The movements are very small and done slowly and without any effort at all. The desired outcome is not to tone or improve muscles by movement, but to regain the sense of that part of the body, which is in effect a deficiency of the nervous system.
If you're going to take that kind of anti-exercise stance, you might as well be anti-sarno, as he encourages as a big part of recovery for patients to restart physical activities that caused them pain in the past!
Of course the activity itself is moot - it's a means to an end - to reprogram the mind into letting go of symptoms. This is exactly what occurs with Somatics too. I fail to see the difference.
--
"What the Thinker thinks, the Prover proves."
Robert Anton Wilson |
| HilaryN |
Posted - 10/30/2006 : 17:22:37
quote:
If the mind can affect the body in ways such as in Sarno's books by defusing pain signals the brain holds for blood flow, why then can't the body be used to affect the mind?
You make a very good point there, Hillbilly, and I have seen that happen with the Alexander Technique: as people get physical release they sometimes also get emotional release. In fact that's the reason I was able to accept Sarno's theories when I read his book.
Physical and emotional patterns do seem to be tied in together. (Hence the term "mindbody", and the impossibility of separating the two.)
Hilary N |
| Dave |
Posted - 10/30/2006 : 16:28:45
You are right, I have not read Somatics. I am responding strictly to the messages on this thread, and my feeling that any program that involves "physical movement patterns" and a daily exercise routine is contradictory to TMS.
This certainly does not mean that a daily exercise program is a bad thing. Quite the opposite. It is important to live a healthy life and that includes physical exercise. It's one thing to exercise, but another to believe that specific exercises can "control subconscious tension habits."
Anyway, I wish you luck and hope that the Somatics program continues to work for you. |
| Hillbilly |
Posted - 10/30/2006 : 11:37:02
Hope everyone gets better.... |
| Dave |
Posted - 10/30/2006 : 10:55:27
quote:
Originally posted by wrldtrv
From what I have gathered of Somatics, I don't see it as competition with TMS. I think those who simplify it by seeing it as basically a set of exercises to relieve pain are missing a larger point. I don't have any pain. I'm interested in what it can do for my stiffness, my posture that has become each year more rigid, my gait which has become more constrained.
I'm afraid that many people don't get this very important point about treating TMS.
It is essential to get as close to 100% belief as you can regarding the psychogenic nature of the symptoms. There is no room for doubt. If you sew the seeds of doubt, the unconscious mind will sieze the opportunity to give you symptoms that are most likely to be perceived as a structural problem.
If you believe bad posture is the cause of muscle stiffness, and seek out physical remedies, the stiffness will remain and possibly intensify, because it grabs your attention and is perceived as a physical problem.
The unconscious mind will do whatever it can to keep you from believing that the physical symptoms have a psychological origin, and from attempting to feel the "forbidden" feelings that are buried inside.
Consistency is important. You can't say "the pain is TMS but the stiffness is bad posture." It undermines the entire TMS treatment. |
| Fox |
Posted - 10/30/2006 : 07:17:37
Thanks,Dave. I agree that any system that presupposes that our bodies are so weak, so subject to structural damage from benign interactions with the environment, and can only be "corrected" by physical exercise is incompatible with TMS and would only distract folks from putting their full concentration and effort into Sarno's program. |
| wrldtrv |
Posted - 10/29/2006 : 01:14:44
From what I have gathered of Somatics, I don't see it as competition with TMS. I think those who simplify it by seeing it as basically a set of exercises to relieve pain are missing a larger point. I don't have any pain. I'm interested in what it can do for my stiffness, my posture that has become each year more rigid, my gait which has become more constrained. Hanna points out that the old age stoop, the dowager's hump--the classic signs of an old person may be artificially imposed by psychological processes (or previous injuries) rather than the years. Viewed in this way, I don't see any conflict with TMS. I see them as concerned with different aspects of mind-body disorders. I think that anyone who attempts to give an opinion of Somatics without having at least read the book can be ignored.
PS--I wrote Sarno to ask if he was familiar with Somatics, and if so, what was his opinion of it. I'll let you know if I get a response.
|
| HilaryN |
Posted - 10/28/2006 : 18:28:50
quote:
If you want to talk about exercises, please find another forum. This one is about TMS.
But I thought this was a very interesting discussion about TMS. Please don't squash it, Dave! If you made the forum too restrictive it would be a very boring place.
I can't see any connection between Somatics and repressed emotions, which is what causes TMS.
I agree with ACL and Dave that sitting at a computer shouldn't cause pain. I used to believe that it should. It seemed logical that bad posture and using the body in a way it's not designed to be used could cause pain.
But I once saw a program about women who deform their bodies so that they can have an hourglass figure. They wear corsets and lace in their waists. One of them said she couldn't eat large meals because of her organs being deformed - she could only eat small meals and had to eat more frequently. I was horrified and thought these women must be storing up some horrible health problems for themselves later in life with their bodies and organs being deformed. But, apparently, scientists said that there were no known bad health effects from doing this.
I was stunned. The conclusion I drew was that the human body has a miraculous ability to adapt.
So we can slump in front of our computers as much as we want. We'll end up with rounded shoulders and hunch backs, but it shouldn't cause pain.
The comparison between holding a dumbbell at the wrong angle and slumping in front of a computer isn't a fair comparison. I slump I front of a computer every day, so my muscles are trained to do it. Sitting with correct posture and at the right height, angle, etc. didn't help my RSI. If I held a dumbbell at an awkward angle every day, my muscles would soon strengthen and I would be able to do it without pain. Again, I might end up a funny shape, but I don't think I would get pain.
I'm not saying TMS is the answer to everything, or that Somatics is rubbish - obviously it isn't, because you've got better from it. I like what Floorten said:
quote:
Maybe some people have purely TMS-type back pain, others have Somatics-type back pain, and a further group have a condition containing elements of both.
This third group may be open to healing from either or both treatments. They could be two sides of the same coin - TMS representing the emotional side and Hanna representing the physical/neurological side of what's happening in the sufferer. If there is any kind of feedback loop between the two, it's quite feasible that breaking the vicious circle with either of these tools will be enough to initiate healing.
Hilary N |
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