| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| jeffRCarlson |
Posted - 08/08/2006 : 10:22:27
I have been reading through the posts and it looks like many treat any/every pain as a symptom of TMS and not a real injury.
How do you tell the difference?
While suffering from severe RSI of the arms I developed a knee problem while running to relieve stress. Following much of what I read about Sarno I should have ignored it (which I tried to do for 2 years). Finally I pushed the doctor for an MRI and discovered I had a meniscus tear. After surgery my knee is now pain free.
If I had followed Sarno's advice I would still be suffering from knee pain.
So again what is the criteria if any for determining if it's stress, subconscious mind, etc... causing the problem versus something real?
Certainly in the case of my knee all the signs/symptoms to claim it was my mind and the associated stress of possibly losing my job from my RSI in the arms that was causing the problem. I had what I believe with a classic symptoms to point to a mind not body issue yet ultimately the problem is real and had nothing to do with the mind.
Thanks jrc
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| 20 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| HilaryN |
Posted - 08/11/2006 : 17:01:27
Hey, fellow Dragon-user,
You’re making me feel all nostalgic because I miss my Dragon (I was dependent on it for years).
But I don’t miss my RSI.
Hilary N |
| armchairlinguist |
Posted - 08/11/2006 : 11:34:59
BBPete,
That's correct, my trigger points are latent. However, they are not defined by the pain they cause. They are defined by tenderness on pressure in certain areas (that's how I know I have them -- I can feel the tenderness if I press down). The Trigger Point Therapy Workbook states that it's important to keep working on latent trigger points until they are gone, or else any slight strain will bring back the pain. I have found this to be false in my case. My trigger points seem to be only activated by my brain to cause TMS pain.
--
Wherever you go, there you are. |
| Dave |
Posted - 08/10/2006 : 20:44:36
quote:
Originally posted by jeffRCarlson
I find it extremely hard to believe that these problems didn't exist. One thing you are not taking into account his back then there was no Internet for these people to connect together. There were not three televisions in every home so that people could become aware that others with the same problem.
...so that the unconscious could not learn what conditions were in vogue and likely to be taken seriously by the sufferer.
quote:
Anyone who has been an athlete knows that if you overtrain for anything you end up with an injury.
Of course. But there's a difference between an athelete getting injured performing a physically demanding task, or overtraining as you say, and RSI. Of course, if you type at a computer keyboard all day, your fingers will probably hurt. But do you really think our bodies are so fragile that we can't handle typing at a computer? You believe our bodies are not so remarkably adaptive such that they can handle this task? How about all the secretaries in the old days who used manual typewriters? Why was their no epidemic of RSI back then?
Your train of thought is exactly what keeps the pain going. You are completely convinced there is a rational structural explanation for the pain. Your unconscious mind is achieving its goal.
I have no problem with debates on this forum. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and you do not have to agree with the TMS theory. The problem is, you are debating in a vaccuum. You do not know anything about the TMS theory because you have not read the book. How can you disagree with something you do not understand?
Please, read the book before debating any further. If afterwards you still want to debate TMS, this forum will still be here. |
| bigbadpete |
Posted - 08/10/2006 : 18:13:35
quote:
Originally posted by armchairlinguist
I still have trigger points and muscle tightness, but I don't have pain anymore.
ACL, how can you have trigger points, but no pain? I thought trigger points were almost entirely defined by the pain they cause. If you don't have any pain, then you probably don't have trigger points, or they're all latent. |
| armchairlinguist |
Posted - 08/10/2006 : 15:46:23
Jeff,
You definitely need to read the book and assess how it fits with your personality and profile, and also check out Nate's site. The bottom line is that RSI being an actual injury doesn't fit with a lot of facts. For me, the prime fact is just my own and others' recovery. If I had had a 'real injury', I couldn't have gone from severely injured, unable to type without pain for more than 5 min, no therapy working to bring me back to functional levels, to being fully active and typing 8 hours a day in a matter of weeks, when the typical profile for "recovery" from "severe RSI" is a return to modified duty (no all-day typing) in six months or more.
It's hard to question the physical-cause indoctrination that we're given, because it all sounds kind of sensible -- that excess repetitive motion is bad, that we must have suddenly started sitting funny or typing more to start it off. But the more I thought about it the less logic I saw. Why do some people who do all the 'bad' things in their typing never get RSI? Why do some people get it only a little, and others badly, when they do the same amount of typing? Why does everyone have different activities that trigger it? Why does everyone have different symptoms? Why does so much tightness in other parts of the body often accompany RSI? Why is the pain not always the worst in the tightest or most-used spots? Why do some treatments work for some people but not others? Why do some people fail to be helped by any treatment?
I heard similar justifications for my knee and foot pain (also gone now). My bones were aligned funny, my thighs were too weak, I had Morton's foot, I had hurt my foot by walking on worn-out shoes. Just as many questions there -- my Morton's foot was mild, so why was the pain severe? Why was the pain worse in one foot than the other? Why did walking with shoes on hurt, but not being barefoot or jogging? The answer turned out to be that the alleged 'causes' weren't causing the pain.
I don't doubt that muscle tightness can be a mechanism and/or contributing factor in RSI. That's basically the theory I used to subscribe to, under the specific name "trigger points". But I don't think it's the cause. I still have trigger points and muscle tightness, but I don't have pain anymore.
--
Wherever you go, there you are. |
| drziggles |
Posted - 08/10/2006 : 11:22:04
Read the book and see what you think. Most people on this forum are skeptical about the RSI concept, and believe it is a manifestation of TMS.
Some things to think about re: RSI:
- It often occurs when there has been no specific change in routine.
- People with RSI often have other problems that can be symptoms of TMS.
- RSI may not improve with decrease of the offending activity.
- Why was there no RSI when people were typing on manual typewriters for 8 hours a day? If it is really related to overwork of the muscles, that should have been a far more common problem then...
You have to decide for yourself whether you believe it or not, but Sarno's is the general approach of this forum. I would agree with checking out the aforementioned RSI sites, as well as Sarno's books. |
| jeffRCarlson |
Posted - 08/10/2006 : 10:45:29
quote:
Originally posted by sonora sky
[quote]
People have been doing repetitive tasks for hundreds of years, certainly since the industrial revolution. All of a sudden there is an epidemic of RSIs, but not because people are doing any more repetitive tasks than before. Think of the horrible sweatshop/assembly line conditions in the 19th century--why didn't these people develop CTS? Or the unfortunate conditions in which some people live and work today in '3rd world' countries. Why isn't there an epedemic of CTS in China?
I find it extremely hard to believe that these problems didn't exist. One thing you are not taking into account his back then there was no Internet for these people to connect together. There were not three televisions in every home so that people could become aware that others with the same problem.
Anyone who has been an athlete knows that if you overtrain for anything you end up with an injury. The body takes a certain amount time to recover and adapt when overworked. If you do not allow sufficient recovery time you continue to break down the muscles and tendons and tissues faster than they can repair and rebuild themselves.
This is why so many professional athletes used steroids. It allows their body to recover and repair faster so that they can get more workouts in the same period of time.
So given this is a well-known fact about athletics which involves repetitive tasks and muscle/tissue repair and recovery why is it so hard to believe that doing something simple and light repetitively can eventually break down the tissues faster than they can recover over an extended period of time?
As a weight lifter if I stick 80 pounds on the barbell and do 15 reps before my arms cannot do it anymore or a stick 10 pounds on and do it 300 times or 2 1bs and do it 3000 times in all cases I eventually completely fatigue the muscles.
If you did this every day you would end up with an injury because the reason muscles are fatigued as they have been overworked and they need time to recover. If you allow sufficient recovery time than you would build endurance and be able to perform it for long periods of time without injury.
However determining where you crossed the threshold from building and strengthening to breaking down and damaging is probably more difficult to determine when doing easy tasks thousands of times compared to heavy tasks a few times.
Thanks jrc
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| Dave |
Posted - 08/10/2006 : 08:41:43
quote:
Originally posted by jeffRCarlson
However I do not believe the conditioning/pain/RSI comes from some subconscious fear, anger, or other emotional distress unless I'm living some kind of subconscious life I am completely unaware of. In my conscious life I would find it difficult for things to be much better.
Please READ THE BOOK.
We are all living "some kind of subconscious life [we are] completely unaware of." It's part of being human. |
| sonora sky |
Posted - 08/09/2006 : 21:16:35
quote:
What I believe is that it is a negative side effect of doing any task repetitively.
I think some people like me who suffer from repetitive stress injuries often have trained the muscles to do the wrong thing and it happens subconsciously rather than consciously. I don't however believe it comes from fear or any other emotional reason. I believe it's just like the athlete do you train the body to do something only not correctly so it causes injury.
I guess I better pick up a copy of his book and get a better understanding of his theories.
Hi JRC, if you truly believe that your pain is a "negative side effect of doing any task repetitively," that thinking is running counter to your undertanding and acceptance of Sarno's theories about TMS. People have been doing repetitive tasks for hundreds of years, certainly since the industrial revolution. All of a sudden there is an epidemic of RSIs, but not because people are doing any more repetitive tasks than before. Think of the horrible sweatshop/assembly line conditions in the 19th century--why didn't these people develop CTS? Or the unfortunate conditions in which some people live and work today in '3rd world' countries. Why isn't there an epedemic of CTS in China? In both of these cases, people work(ed) for longer hours than we do today. Why is it that 20-30 years ago, there was no such thing as RSI, but now, almost every checkout person at the grocery store is wearing a wrist bandage? Sarno talks about TMS taking the form of injuries that are 'in fashion' and ones that can be easily explained away (though not well) by physical means.
I wonder if your personality traits fit the profile of the typical TMSer. In your postings you have thoroughly discussed your physical symptoms but you have said very little about your emotional life, personality, stressors, etc. I am interested to know whether you will "see yourself" in the pages of Sarno's books like many of us have.
Best,
SS |
| flyefisher |
Posted - 08/09/2006 : 20:18:50
The answer??
Well, Sarno says right up front you need diagnostics to determine the presence of real injury. Your MRI should have been done in the beginning.
For those of us who have had all the diagnostics under the sun and still no problem is inferred, then it may be TMS.
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| art |
Posted - 08/09/2006 : 19:09:09
quote:
guess I better pick up a copy of his book and get a better understanding of his theories
This is the very best way to start. |
| jeffRCarlson |
Posted - 08/09/2006 : 18:57:26
While I find it quite believable that unconscious conditioning can contribute to things that can be harmful to your body. For example in the case of my RSI from typing I believe I had subconsciously trained my arm muscles to remain tense and at the ready from 10 to 12 hours a day on the computer six days a week. So even when at rest the muscles were still tense and not able to relax and recover.
Biofeedback sessions that I did showed that the arm muscles were far more tense than normal even when I thought I was relaxing.
Even to this date I believe it's easy for me to fall back into the subconscious pattern of tensing up the arm muscles unnecessarily when I switch back to a lot of typing. I just have to stop and think about what I'm doing in between typing and mousing to realize that my muscles are tensed when they don't need to be.
However I do not believe the conditioning/pain/RSI comes from some subconscious fear, anger, or other emotional distress unless I'm living some kind of subconscious life I am completely unaware of. In my conscious life I would find it difficult for things to be much better.
What I believe is that it is a negative side effect of doing any task repetitively.
Just think about how athletes become extremely skilled at any task like shooting a basketball hitting a baseball etc. They practice the task until the mind can subconsciously control the muscles to it. I believe that sometimes referred to as muscle memory but is really just the subconscious kicking in and controlling the muscles somewhat like breathing. You can choose to do it when you want to however it happens without even thinking about it.
I think some people like me who suffer from repetitive stress injuries often have trained the muscles to do the wrong thing and it happens subconsciously rather than consciously. I don't however believe it comes from fear or any other emotional reason. I believe it's just like the athlete do you train the body to do something only not correctly so it causes injury.
I guess I better pick up a copy of his book and get a better understanding of his theories.
Thanks jrc
This message was created using Dragon NaturallySpeaking.
Please pardon Any 'speakos' that may have gone unnoticed In this message.
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| bigbadpete |
Posted - 08/09/2006 : 18:57:05
quote:
Originally posted by sonora sky
In your case, I see the development of a learned response--you are hesitant and/or fearful to use your hands in certain activities during which you have experienced pain in the past, because you fear (maybe expect) that the pain will return. Your mind knows this, so your hands/wrists/arms are a perfect TMS outlet. TMS thrives on fear.
I agree with this heartily. Once I became confident of the diagnosis of TMS, I was able to stop worrying and getting scared when I felt any symptoms coming on. Once you can cut off that emotional reaction to the pain, you can then start gradually increasing your activity level. If and when you feel pain, don't panic, just finish what you were doing if you can, then take a break. For instance, I used to have to drive by barely squeezing the steering wheel to avoid aggravating my forearms. Once I was certain it was TMS, though, I just said the heck with it, and held the wheel normally throughout my (fortunately short) drive to and from work. Yeah, it was painful, but not so much that I couldn't do what I had to do. Eventually, I didn't feel any pain anymore, and not because I was better at ignoring it, because there wasn't any. |
| Tunza |
Posted - 08/09/2006 : 15:03:33
I agree with Dr Ziggles. Some TMS doctors refer to this as "white coat syndrome".
I had an interesting experience recently with a cold. I was fighting off a throat/ear infection or something similar (half my workmates were ill with similar things). My glands were up and down and morning and evening my throat and sometimes ears would be sore. It wasn't bad enough to take time off work but I go sick of feeling this way after a week and a half. So off to the doctor so he could take a look in my ears and just check that everything was ok.
He gave me the once over and said he thought I was just taking some time to fight off whatever was hitting my workmates. He said he suspected my immune system was stronger than theirs but that I would just need to be patient while my body fought this thing off.
Well, I felt quite chuffed about what he said about my immune system being strong and went away feeling happy. Lo and behold, the next morning my symptoms were gone. Either the confidence he gave me allowed upped my immune system somehow OR my sickness was TMS and the raised glands etc were just another distraction (I have been having problems with my "wanting to be liked no matter what" affecting my ability to be effective at work).
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| Tunza |
Posted - 08/09/2006 : 15:02:25
I agree with Dr Ziggles. Some TMS doctors refer to this as "white coat syndrome".
I had an interesting experience recently with a cold. I was fighting off a throat/ear infection or something similar (half my workmates were ill with similar things). My glands were up and down and morning and evening my throat and sometimes ears would be sore. It wasn't bad enough to take time off work but I go sick of feeling this way after a week and a half. So off to the doctor so he could take a look in my ears and just check that everything was ok.
He gave me the once over and said he thought I was just taking some time to fight off whatever was hitting my workmates. He said he suspected my immune system was stronger than theirs but that I would just need to be patient while my body fought this thing off.
Well, I felt quite chuffed about what he said about my immune system being strong and went away feeling happy. Lo and behold, the next morning my symptoms were gone. Either the confidence he gave me allowed upped my immune system somehow OR my sickness was TMS and the raised glands etc were just another distraction (I have been having problems with my "wanting to be liked no matter what" affecting my ability to be effective at work).
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| drziggles |
Posted - 08/09/2006 : 13:31:00
Don't know if anyone else mentioned this already, but just because there was a meniscus tear on MRI, and just because it got better from surgery, that doesn't mean that the knee pain was not TMS! Surgery can have a huge placebo effect, and it's not uncommon for TMS symptoms to improve after surgery, though they usually come back either in the same location or somewhere else. |
| armchairlinguist |
Posted - 08/09/2006 : 12:10:58
Jeff,
I would join Beth in recommending Nate's site at conquerrsi.com for excellent information on how to deal with RSI in the context of Sarno's theory. His was the site that allowed me to get control over my RSI. I experience no symptoms now, and I type all day for work as well as working on a journal and website at home sometimes. You can find my story (and HilaryN's, which is really excellent) by searching on the forum for "SuccessStory RSI". I had RSI for three years; Hilary had it for 10. Both of us are completely recovered.
To me, it sounds like you have TMS in the form of RSI. You say that it started while you were under stress. You've reduced the stress and changed your lifestyle, and you don't have symptoms now. That's typical TMS behavior (it's more or less what happened to me). The symptoms go away with stress reduction because reduced stress means reduced rage. They also go away with behavioral restriction, because the behavioral restriction does the job of distracting you in the same way that the pain does.
The reason the symptoms come back when you type is conditioning, and to continue keeping you distracted by limiting your activity. You are conditioned to experience pain on typing, and you also believe it will happen, so it does. Just "ignoring the symptoms" will not help if you don't change your beliefs and attitude about them; the pain will come back both from conditioning and from needing to distract you since the behavioral restriction is no longer present. To deal with your mind's need to distract you, you will likely need to do some of the typical Sarno things, like journaling and other emotional work. Again, Nate's site, as well as Rachel's at http://podolsky.everybody.org/rsi/, are extremely helpful in describing this process.
I hope that these ideas help you and you are able to improve and eventually recover completely.
Edited to add: if you have not read a Sarno book, or have not read one in a while, that's even more important than Nate's site. But Nate's site is a great companion and confirmation.
--
Wherever you go, there you are. |
| sonora sky |
Posted - 08/09/2006 : 11:44:03
Hi JRC,
First off, I would recommend beginning to read Sarno immediately, so you can get a better grasp on his concepts, right from the source. I think many here would agree that Sarno has a way of explaining things so simply and clearly, that his ideas really 'click' in your mind while reading. I would recommend beginning with The MindBody Prescription, but others on this forum might have a different suggestion.
Battling TMS in your mind differs for each of us, as our situations are all unique. However, from what I've read on this forum and what I have personally experienced, ignoring the pain is NOT usually effective. Especially if the pain is excruciating, you'd have to be a Zen master to convince your mind that the pain does not exist. And furthermore, the pain IS real, so ignoring it (pretending it isn't there) doesn't really get to the root of the problem. I've found that getting angry/frustrated at the pain often makes it worse, so I try not to go that route, either. On a recent thread, someone mentioned the act of acceptance of the pain, or of being mindful of the way you are feeling (body and mind) as a method of interrupting the mind-body pathway of TMS. I think part of the process is 'un-learning' the physical responses you have become accustomed to. In your case, I see the development of a learned response--you are hesitant and/or fearful to use your hands in certain activities during which you have experienced pain in the past, because you fear (maybe expect) that the pain will return. Your mind knows this, so your hands/wrists/arms are a perfect TMS outlet. TMS thrives on fear.
Part of stopping the mind-to-physical-pain cycle is the recognition that the pain response is only TMS. There are a list of statments that Sarno gives in Healing Back Pain (they might be in MBP, too) that you must accept 100% in order to break the TMS cycle. These include believing that the pain is TMS and not some underlying structural problem; because it is TMS, there is nothing to fear; because there is nothing to fear, you must resume all normal physical activity; no harm can come from this activity, because TMS is harmless; you must always think psychological (emotional), not physical, and so on. . . These are important concepts to learn if you choose to follow Sarno's mindbody prescription.
Best of luck!
ss |
| Dave |
Posted - 08/09/2006 : 11:43:52
quote:
Originally posted by jeffRCarlson
So I would think if my RSI condition was TMS related that in my current state they should be able to go back to typing eight hours a day without having problems. However as I mentioned earlier it only takes a day or two of backing away from the voice-recognition and/or an evening of playing Xbox with the kids to remind me that I am now more susceptible than I used be.
To me this is an indication that my repetitive stress injury was real and not a mind body issue. Does this sound like a reasonable conclusion to those of you who have experienced similar situations?
No, this conclusion is completely inaccurate. You need to read Dr. Sarno's book for a full explanation.
In a nutshell, it's all about conditioning. You are conditioned to feel the RSI symptoms whenever you perform an activity that is supposed to cause them. The symptoms are carefully orchestrated by the unconscious mind to mimic a physical problem in a convincing way.
By the way, you can't ignore the symptoms and see a physical therapist at the same time. That's a contradiction.
Bottom line: read the book before making any more conclusions. It has to be the first step.
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| ndb |
Posted - 08/09/2006 : 11:39:08
jrc,
the fact that you are not back to typing 8 hours a day tells me that you have not dealt with your TMS! NOT that your RSI is not TMS related. I do not believe there is such a thing as "real" RSI. You are not 'more susceptible' than before, you still have TMS symptoms, maybe less severe, maybe you've conditioned yourself differently now to think it gets better with rest, but I believe its TMS symptoms. No repetitive actions can have such a lasting physical effect.
Also, the mind-body approach is NOT (!!!!!!) just to ignore your symptoms.
best,
ndb |
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