| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| hsb |
Posted - 07/29/2006 : 05:05:59
Hi All. Been awhile since I've posted. I have been doing alot of miles lately and have been somewhat injury free. I had a scare with some calf strain but it went away without me having to take any time off from running.
I ran 10 miles on Sunday and in the last 3 minutes of the run I started feeling achilles pain. I chose to ignore it. I ran on Tuesday and Thursday and it is not so great. So I haven't run since Thursday - took Friday and today off. I want to run on Friday but alas I am scared. I always seem to have the inner battle - is it TMS or a real achilles thing? How does one discern this? To run or not to run? Will I make it worse? I know I have been obsessing about it. The battle rages within me. If I do run, maybe it will get worse, if I don't run I'm giving in to it.
I suppose I could take a week off from running to see if there is some improvement - if not, then i know it is TMS?
It's funny when I had the bout of calf pain, I didn't really make a big deal out of it and it went away quickly. For some reason, I am very scared with the achilles pain and I'm thinking I need treatment, PT. Achilles tendonitis is a rough injury for runners - it can debilitate them for months and months.
Any suggestions.
Thanks
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| 20 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| art |
Posted - 08/03/2006 : 03:13:35
quote:
Originally posted by wrldtrv
Yes, I do indeed have a terrible struggle accepting anything because I CAN see all sides. My tendency is to be very skeptical, accepting things only tentatively until some other piece of evidence comes along to contradict it. And though I have seen the liklihood of TMS operating in my own life, I STILL have a tough time believing it 100%, but I'm making progress.
THat's reall nice to hear wrld..I know it's been a long, hard struggle for you. I didn't get this stuff over night either. |
| wrldtrv |
Posted - 08/02/2006 : 23:35:34
Art--guess what? I couldn't believe it I woke up this morning and my shoulder was back to normal! It was as though yesterday never happened. All I did was take some ibuprofin after the incident and went to bed. I was very sure that like the last two times, this "injury" would take at least weeks to heal.
Of course you're right; people don't get shoulder injuries from just sitting and doing nothing. This episode seems very clearly a case of TMS--or whatever else you want to call it. Especially because this time it disappeared so quickly. The first time took several months so I assumed it was a real injury all along. Even so, I was always suspicious that that time too, all I was doing before the injury was sitting at a desk and talking to someone. The part that ties the two episodes together is that each time, I was under stress.
As always, Art, you are very insightful in your comments. Yes, I do indeed have a terrible struggle accepting anything because I CAN see all sides. My tendency is to be very skeptical, accepting things only tentatively until some other piece of evidence comes along to contradict it. And though I have seen the liklihood of TMS operating in my own life, I STILL have a tough time believing it 100%, but I'm making progress. |
| art |
Posted - 08/02/2006 : 11:20:18
In my non-medical opinion, you can't injure your shoulder just sitting at your desk talking with someone...
Popping noises are often associated with new TMS symptoms from what I've read...
Shoulders are weird. Before I knew about TMS I'd been having much trouble with my right shoulder when playing golf. One day the pain got so bad I figured I was done for the season..Since it was late summer already I figured I wouldn't play again till the following spring, so I might as well play one more hole as it didn't matter much if I hurt myself a little more...Granted that's kind of dumb thinking, but the result was that for the first time in weeks I was no longer afraid...I just felt like no matter what I did it wasn't going to matter...
So I teed off one more time, and really let it rip. Amazingly, the pain was gone, vanished, poof. Just like that. As I said, I didn't know about TMS in those days, but clearly that's what I had. As soon as I lost the fear, the pain went away. I played the rst of the season pain free..
It's almost as if for me the engine that drives this whole thing is not rage so much as fear...It's not easy not to be afraid, especially since as you guys point out, we've got so much invested in running, but the good news is you don't have to be perfect...For me, just "acting as if" I'm not afraid has been enough, at least so far..
wrld...I know you're quite an intelligent guy...intelligent people are sometimes quite skeptical, and have a hard time buying into any one thing because they can see all sides of an issue...but sometimes things are just so obvious it might pay to take a step back and try to be objective...you're sitting at your desk, you have stress and anger, the two big emotional components of TMS in my view anyway, and suddenly for no reason your shoulder goes "pop." If I told you such a tale, what would you tell me you thought it was? |
| wrldtrv |
Posted - 08/01/2006 : 23:01:34
I find this thread very interesting. The whole question of how does one know when something is TMS or not.
Just today--a few hours ago--at work I had something happen that makes me very suspicious. During a meeting (I hate meetings and I was a combo of tense and irritated) as I leaned over the paper I was looking at, I heard a popping sound and then felt a sharp pain in my left shoulder. Well, I mentioned a similar pain just one month ago that occurred while I was making some very slight stretching movement while lifting very light wts. That "injury" had just about healed when it happened again tonight. Okay, the really bizarre thing is this exact injury, same location, happened for the first time two years ago. What that time had in common with today was that then too, I remember I was sitting in an office at work talking to someone and was experiencing some sort of tension, anger--something when the sharp pain occurred. Then, it was so painful I thought I dislocated my shoulder. I even went into the restroom and took off my shirt to see. I assumed I had a rotator cuff injury and even went through months of P.T. Took probably 6 months to fully heal.
Okay, I can see how vigorous physical activity could maybe cause this type of injury, but how in the hell can simply sitting at a table talking to someone (twice) cause this severe acute pain and then months of recuperation? It's simply baffling!
TMS? Sure sounds like it, except that I heard a popping sound this latest time along with the fact that it has always occurred in the same shoulder. And each time the shoulder eventually heals completely and even lifting very heavy wts doesn't bother it. |
| weatherman |
Posted - 08/01/2006 : 16:28:33
Just to clarify - I never stretch the achilles before exercise, I actually do it late in the evening on most days. And never to the point of pain. I do know that I have about 10 degrees more range of front-and-back motion in my ankles now than before I began doing this, which would seem to make a sudden tear less likely. Again, I don't view the stretching thing as pain prevention since that truly does originates in the mind - but I do believe a flexible achilles is better than a stiff one.
I did pick up The Divided Mind a month ago and while it didn't have any achilles stories per se, one of the contributors noted that achilles problems have become much more common lately, kind of like carpal tunnel.
Weatherman |
| hsb |
Posted - 08/01/2006 : 14:20:10
Art said: "I just don't think there's much that's as destructive to our health and well-being as obsessive worry and fear.."
In a nutshell. |
| art |
Posted - 08/01/2006 : 12:37:11
quote:
I've consistently worked on keeping mine stretched,
Different paths for different folks, but I would not recommend stretching the Achilles...It's a tendon, and not only are you not helping it in my opinion, you can even damage it by stretching it...
Stretching before a run has been largely shown to be a net negative...What works for me, and what I believe has general applicability to the Achilles tendon, is to build up steam slowly...
Baseball players routinely tear their Achilles because they go from a dead stop to full out running in an instant...This clearly is not good...
hsb, if you've got a history of injuries that don't heal in the usual time, that to me would make them suspicious...Yes, runners do get hurt, but not nearly as often as we're led to believe..
One thing that might encourage you..I had fairly intense, intractable foot pain for months...I finally decided "screw it" this is TMS, there's nothing wrong with my foot...I ran in pain for weeks, but gradually it went away...It tok a long time, but once I saw that I could run without my foot falling off or anything, I became quite confident that nothing bad was going to happen...
If you're prone to TMS, then I think a reasonable assumption with most things that come your way is TMS..
Edit...I do agree with that hs...We TMS'ers obsess an d worry about evry little thing....I think it's part and parcel of the disorder..IN order for us to heal, we need to lose our fear...It's an ongoing struggle for me I can tell you that, but I can also attest to the fact that one can definitely make substantial progress..I just don't think there's much that's as destructive to our health and well-being as obsessive worry and fear.. |
| hsb |
Posted - 08/01/2006 : 12:36:46
Ok. This might be a stretch but here goes. I kind of think that when my other running friends get some sort of injury (and I do feel it is inevitable if you run big miles) they have a different reaction to injuries and pain than I do, one with the TMS personality. I feel that they don't obsess and take it as it comes and are okay that it might take time for it to heal. I know for myself a a TMS'er that as soon as I get a pain, that I panic because I don't want this to be another one of those chronic "no one can cure" injuries after treatment after treatment.
My friends seem to be okay with the injury and with the pain - they don't have the TMS personality. And their pain goes away in the general "normal" time frame to heal. It is us TMS'ers that get the chronicity.
Do you guys think I'm off base here?
Thanks |
| weatherman |
Posted - 08/01/2006 : 10:45:13
Achilles pain is a subject near and dear to my heart as my first bout happened back in 1984. I'm happy to say that I've gained a real handle on it over the last 2-1/2 years (knock on wood) now that I'm about to turn 50. Like you I was concerned about whether it was a "real" injury - it is never discussed in any great detail in the TMS books as far as success stories etc. My passion is hiking and skiing up mountains which conventional medical types will tell you strains the achilles.
I've known a few people that have torn them - all playing basketball -and it looks like the most miserable injury you could have. For this reason I've consistently worked on keeping mine stretched, but I DON'T think about it in terms of pain prevention, only injury prevention. Make no mistake, a tear is a real injury.
Since I started doing my part for injury prevention, I've pretty much disregarded the pain aspect with good success. A good case in point is that a couple of weeks ago my left achilles had been nagging me to the point where I noticed it during daily walks of ~3 miles on mostly flat ground. My solution: the following weekend I did an off-trail hike involving 5,000 feet of vertical. And guess what - the achilles never bothered me. This kind of apporach has worked several times, where in the past I could have made myself crazy for weeks or months resting a supposed "injury."
Some purists may disagree with me on this, but my advice would be to do your part by keeping it stretched, but beyond that don't worry about it. The conventional advice about achilles treatment will only make you crazy and depressed - it is some of the most hopeless sounding stuff you'll ever read. I think I have a kinship with runners, in that REST is the foulest 4-letter word I know. If I had rested 6 weeks every time I felt discomfort in my achilles I'd be a complete couch potato and probably weigh 300 pounds.
Hope this helps - I believe I have all of the TMS books, but I'm still waiting to see one with an achilles "tendonitis" anecdote. I am convinced that the achilles stuff is TMS and I do have the personality traits in spades.
Weatherman |
| hsb |
Posted - 08/01/2006 : 03:31:08
I find the hardest thing for me is to discern whether the pain is a real injury or TMS. I have read Monte's book as well as Dr. Sopher's. The biggest hurdle for me is deciding to stop running or to continue to run with the pain. I guess I don't understand TMS because I still believe that runners do get injured. Even world class runners have to stop with injuries.
I am wondering if chronicity is the way to discern. If a pain lasts longer than the supposed time period for something to heal? That is why I battle running or not running through my current pain in my foot.
i look back over my running career and in my history I have had so many "injuries" but they never ever healed with the usual time period.. And that is after trying every treatment imaginable. That is the reason I don't want to stop running. If you go by my past history, a week off won't do anything.
I am trying not to obsess. Most runners can understand this dilemma. We don't want to stop even for a week!!!!
It is funny how 2 weeks ago after my 15 miler I had calf pains and they went away pretty quickly. This foot pain is kind of different. It hurts by teh achilles and on top of the foot. I haven't been able to get rid of this pain. I did get very scared with the calf pain but it went away. Because I have had this pain for over a week, I get scared.
My rant for today!!!
Hsb
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| wrldtrv |
Posted - 07/31/2006 : 23:39:28
I agree with you, Art and hsb, about long runs. I prefer them too and will probably return to them when I decide to end this daily running experiment. I definitely crave the feeling of being wiped out after a long run, especially on a very hot day, the hotter the better (I grew up in AZ so it's in my blood). But I can get the same effect on a shorter run simply by running faster.
I don't know what you guys think, but I find running gives me a good feeling better than any other exercise. I don't get the same feeling after a bike ride, lifting wts, or hike. Water sports might be the exception. I love anything around water. Swimming gives me the same high that running does.
The great thing about running, and probably the reason I've done it so long, is that I can do it anywhere, anytime, w/out special equipment or expense. It's simple and basic. I hope to be doing it at some level for the rest of my life. |
| hsb |
Posted - 07/31/2006 : 11:32:59
Hey Art-
Good for you. I am with you regarding the long runs. I get the "runner's high" that's for sure. It will be 100 degrees here tomorrow (Northern Virginia) and I can't wait to sweat as well. But now I am trying really hard not to obsess about these pains. Assessing after the 10 miler yesterday I definitely did not have any pain that stopped me in my tracks but the pains are definitely there.
Again the dilemma - running injury or TMS. I tend to obsess about the aches and pains because running means so much to me and for years and years of all of my "running injuries" which I feel were TMS, I don't want to blow a great thing - ONE YEAR OF NON-STOP RUNNING. 2006 - so far a complete log book!!! I had my share of niggles this year but I was able to get through them. I am not sure why this one isn't going away. I am not going on the internet (which i normally do) and I am not going to go to a dr. who will recommend PT. That's baloney.
I might have to just take some time off which I am battling.
Thanks Art.
hsb
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| art |
Posted - 07/31/2006 : 07:06:07
hey wrld,
I'd love to run every day, and I suppose if I cut my mileage to 2 or 3 per day I could..which might not be a bad thing...But on the other hand I'd miss those longer runs...Now for me these days a longer run might be 7 miles, but it still feels long, and that's the point I guess..I just love that feeling of being wiped out at the end...Like a drug, only legal....
Wednesday it's supposed to be 99 and humid around here...I can't wait..,,,It's a sickness I suppose, but not a bad one I don't think...
At 55 I've seen a lot of changes...for the very first time in my life I've put on a little weight...I've also lost speed...That's ok though....changes are inevitable, it's how we deal with them that counts...My goal is to get whatever I can out of this old bod, right up to the limit of what's possible for me...I never get there of course, but I'll never give up trying.
Happy trails..
A.
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| wrldtrv |
Posted - 07/30/2006 : 23:03:28
Art--I always thought the same thing...that runners should take at least a couple of days off per week. I've always taken a lot more than that. But this experiment is quite interesting in that I really do feel better than if I run only occasionally. The hamstring tendonitis that I have had chronically for years hasn't been bothering me at all for the past several weeks with daily running. I admit that I'm running low miles, an average of 3/day though sometimes more. And I have been very careful to be gentle with the stretching. I know the latest studies debunk stretching, but I actually enjoy it. And since I have always been extremely stiff, I enjoy the challenge of trying to increase my flexibility over time.
As for age (I'm 52), I can't say I see much difference for me. I'm the same weight I was 30 yrs ago and I really feel the same, just as energetic, etc. I know someday that will change, but I'm in no rush.
This experiment is making me think that the way I've always handled running; going from no running to marathon training instantly, is probably not as healthy as more regular running. And every single day is no problem as long as the mileage is low.
Another welcome surprise is that I think the daily running is helping my mood. Not a huge difference, but at least a mild antidepressant effect. |
| art |
Posted - 07/30/2006 : 17:00:35
quote:
Originally posted by hsb
Guys, sorry if I wasn't clear - I only run 4 days week. Not sure how you got 6. I'd love to run 6 days a week .... but I know my body couldn't take it. I run three six milers and a ten on Sundays for a total of 28 miles per week.
Today I ran my ten miler. I am not sure it is achilles pain now. Seems like it is the inside of the leg and over the ankle and into the foot. Shinsplint??? I ran the 10 miles trying not to focus on it. The pain wasn't bad enough to stop me in my tracks. But I am feeling it now. Soooooooo ..... not sure what to do now. I won't run again until Tuesday. I really tried not to focus on the pain at all but it was there. Maybe I can run through this and tell the gremlin that you aren't fooling me.
Will report back how i'm doing.
THis sounds like your absolutely typical, wandering, vague TMS stuff....I have rogue pains (let's call them) all the time...they come and go, now in this place, now in that, waxing and waning in intensity in a way that seems quite random...For the most part I've learned to ignore them...
Friday I played golf and for the entire round my ankle hurt..It twinged with nearly every step...In the past I would have worried..Now I'm able to just blow this stuff off...I knew it would be gone in an hour, or a day, or maybe two at the most, and I was right..Next morning, nothing.. |
| hsb |
Posted - 07/30/2006 : 12:40:08
Guys, sorry if I wasn't clear - I only run 4 days week. Not sure how you got 6. I'd love to run 6 days a week .... but I know my body couldn't take it. I run three six milers and a ten on Sundays for a total of 28 miles per week.
Today I ran my ten miler. I am not sure it is achilles pain now. Seems like it is the inside of the leg and over the ankle and into the foot. Shinsplint??? I ran the 10 miles trying not to focus on it. The pain wasn't bad enough to stop me in my tracks. But I am feeling it now. Soooooooo ..... not sure what to do now. I won't run again until Tuesday. I really tried not to focus on the pain at all but it was there. Maybe I can run through this and tell the gremlin that you aren't fooling me.
Will report back how i'm doing.
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| flyefisher |
Posted - 07/30/2006 : 07:12:33
In my cycling training I rode 6 days per week. However, at most 2 of those could be "hard" days, i.e. long mileage and/or rigorous. Two days were extremely light - barely working up a sweat. On the bike it's easy to pedal real gently and coast a lot. The body needs more time to adapt to the high-end training than the high end training. It really works for advancing performance and endurance. Many go hard all the time thinking they'll naturally get better because they did so much work. But in the end they end up overtrained and not performing well.
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| art |
Posted - 07/30/2006 : 04:40:30
hs,
Don't know your age, but 6 days a week is a lot of running....I used to do that in my 20's and early 30's, but even for that age I think it was a lot..
I think the runner's body needs to rest a couple of days a week...
wrld, that's quite interesting. As I'm 55 now, I've been taking two days off between runs....I cross train on my days off generally...Yesterday I decided to take only one day off. It was in the mid-90's which I just love, so I couldn't pass it up...I was actually surprised how well I ran...
So maybe there's a middle-ground I need to explore..
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| hsb |
Posted - 07/30/2006 : 03:57:54
Wrld Trv.
I have been running the same mileage for months --- tues thurs sat i would run between 6 and 8 miles and sundays i would run 10. been doing that for about 8 months. just recently i increased my sunday runs 11, 13 and 15 because i was thinking of doing half marathon.
according to monte - we associate the running with the pain. i guess i find i hard not to as this is basically all i've been doing. i am battling this alot. i have had this pain for a week. perhaps monte and dr. sarno mean "chronic pain", i.e. pain that lasts longer than the usual course of an "injiury". so if this doesn't go away in a few weeks, then i know it is TMS???
great job on your month running streak.
i am going to try the 10 miler today. if it really bothers me - i will take the advice you and art gave me -- to rest a week.
in the past most of my injuries lasted months and months and that is why i knew it was TMS - they didn't respond to rest and treatments. i honestly don't want to start that all over again ........ in the past, rest and treatments never helped.
i will report back after the run this morning.
thanks for your opinion.
hsb |
| wrldtrv |
Posted - 07/29/2006 : 21:31:16
hsb--I've been running for almost as long as Art, but don't think I have ever had an achilles problem. I've had a lot of the other common runner stuff, but not that.
The fact that you had the problem in the left leg first and then the right leg (all in the same week) seems to make it suspicious for TMS. Still, I don't see any harm in at first taking the conservative route (resting a few days) just in case. And then when you run again, start with lower mileage for a week or so. Even though you are not training for anything at present, sounds like you are doing fairly long runs (10,15 miles at a time). Do you do this kind of mileage every day or just once or twice a week?
I recently started a running experiment: For most of my 28 yrs of running I have run VERY irregularly. I might not run a step for a few weeks and then abruptly start training for a marathon. Even when marathon training, I typically haven't run more than 2-3 days a week. And I have had chronic injuries of one sort or the other for most of my running years (hamstring tendonitis, I-T Band, Plantar Fascitis...). Well, last month I decided to try an experiment. What if I ran every single day? Believe it or not, I don't think I have ever run more than 3-4 days in a row. Well, this is my 24th day of daily running and my legs feel much better than they do with only occasional running. It's true that my daily mileage has been very low, but I think there might also be something about the daily workout that toughens the muscles and tendons that sporadic running doesn't--even though the total mileage might be the same. I wonder what others think about this. |
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