| T O P I C R E V I E W |
| wrldtrv |
Posted - 03/24/2006 : 22:49:33
For the past several days I have been bothered by a familiar symptom: tightness in my left shoulder. The last time that happened (two yrs ago) there was also sharp pain if I raised my arm in a certain way. The doc assumed rotator cuff and sent me to PT for a few months. Eventually it went away.
Well, the tightness is very familiar, and the occasional popping sound if I move in a certain way, but no pain. Two yrs ago I never questioned that I had a real physical problem, but now I do. I know that Sarno lists RC problems as TMS, for one thing. Also, this time and last, I don't remember any injury that would have caused this. At this point it's fairly mild but it comes after a steady stream of other symptoms of various kinds over the past 6 mo. The most troublesome thing for me about any of these symptoms is the MEANING I give them. For me, a symptom automatically conjures up in my imagination the worst case scenario. And because I cannot disprove that scenario beyond the shadow of doubt, it has power over me. What I have been working on (and getting better at, I think) these last few months is trying to rationally debunk the automatic thought. It is not hard to come up with reasonable alternatives; the real trick is to REALLY believe them instead of the unreasonable or wacky scenario. |
| 14 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
| Baseball65 |
Posted - 03/28/2006 : 17:13:12
I don't know about the details of conditioning...only the models I've read about and witinessed in my own life,good and bad.
There is a paradox in Batting...The more aggressive you are,the less likely you are to get drilled.Charlie Lau the great Hitting coach was the first to address the issue,but the fact is that anybody who ever has walked to the plate,deep down fears being hit by the ball.It's 'printed' in your subconscious.Anybody who says otherwise is a liar.
...and anybody who plays baseball for more than say...a month? probably has been drilled a number of times.It might only happen every 100 at bats,but it dominates the hitters mind in all of the other 99.A lot like out TMS fear conditioning.
Fear of being hit is what causes tension at the plate,tension at the plate causes a low batting average and low power numbers which equals more tension (shAME/FEAR)...sooo
I fell into this trap at one point and my batting avg plummeted.It was the exact experience in the above quote...:quote:
Originally posted by wrldtrv
Unfortunately, from what I've read, once the fear reaction becomes conditioned, it takes less and less stimulus each time to get the same or greater response. More depressing, is that the fear reaction bypasses the thinking brain (prefrontal cortex) and goes immediately to the amagydla, the fear center of the brain. While a lifesaver, if a tiger is chasing you it is absolutely the wrong reaction for us. It seems that one can counter this conditioning by cognitive reprogramming; constantly watching for the errors in logic.
Than I read a book called 'Head Games' By a sports psychologist
( Walter Herbison) ...He gives a 'zen' crash course in how to shut off the thinking part of your mind.I was hitting about a buck eighty,so I was desperate enough to try anything.
I learned how to 'dumb down' right before I stepped into the batters box.I had the best season of my life.
The first at-bat I had right after reading the book was the scariest pitcher in my league.He was still throwing in the 90's and had just left professional baseball.I was TERRIFIED to face him,and was 0-2 in two at bats against him(2 pop-ups) ...He had no business being in my 'old man' league,and I dreaded facing him..
I drove to the game 'dumbing down' and as luck would have it,I faced him in the first inning.
He launched a heater right down the middle and I waved at it like a girl....Humiliating.In the past,I would stress out and get angry,tighten up and get worse.This time,I 'got stupid' and nodded myself into the 'dumb zone'
I drilled the next pitch into right field for a 2 RBI single.
I'm not sure I've permanently broke my fear of being hit,though I'm certain that there are tools in the human mind to break virtually any conditioned fear if we find the right ones.
I have Herbisons book in the 'keeper' rack,right next to 'pitch like a pro' 'the art of hitting .300' and the foundation stone of all of them "Healing Back Pain" By Sarno.
None of the others would have been relevant if I hadn't read the first.
-BB65
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| n/a |
Posted - 03/28/2006 : 10:15:47
went to a lecture last night. The person speaking broke her leg several weeks ago. That is a real injury. But you know what? She is now walking with no crutches and no pain. Now we, who have zero injuries have all this pain, it does not make any sense unless one understands the work of Dr. Saro. |
| wrldtrv |
Posted - 03/27/2006 : 20:30:40
Art--It's curious that you would be more fearful of hamstring injury than knee injury. After all, hamstrings are only tissue--muscle and tendon--whereas, knees involve bone and cartilage, something that does not grow back once degenerated.
But I do recognize the conditioned fear response that has built up. In me it looks like this: hamstring pain (or any other chronic pain)=
fear reaction = memory of previous pain = greater fear and dread; memory of how depressing that was, how it kept me from running... = more fear and dread = rumination; TRYING TO FIGURE IT OUT, which NEVER works, which only serves to increase the anxiety.
Unfortunately, from what I've read, once the fear reaction becomes conditioned, it takes less and less stimulus each time to get the same or greater response. More depressing, is that the fear reaction bypasses the thinking brain (prefrontal cortex) and goes immediately to the amagydla, the fear center of the brain. While a lifesaver, if a tiger is chasing you it is absolutely the wrong reaction for us. It seems that one can counter this conditioning by cognitive reprogramming; constantly watching for the errors in logic.
By the way, I definitely know what you mean by exercise being key for you, something you would hate to lose. I think about that a lot. Months ago (and even now) when I had the neuro fears, that's exactly what scared me most about it. Imagining myself in a wheelchair or in any way not able to get out in exercise scared the crap out of me, almost a PTSD reaction! |
| hsb |
Posted - 03/27/2006 : 16:02:34
art-
seems like you and me and the other runners on this board go through the same cycle of thinking - will stopping the action that we think causes the pain, i.e. running? as you said, it becomes an obsession.
i have posted recently about my neck pain = been going on for about 6 months. i chose to basically ignore it. i stopped swimming and lifting weights but continued to run and increase my miles. i had an mri last week and it showed "mild degenerative disc disease". surprise surprise. of course the doctor made it seem not so good - "you have multi-level issues" - basically very mild herniations and some closing in of the spaces between the discs. he is a runner and he said on the record running isn't so good, but off the record, he would run though the pain might not go away and the degeneration might increase.
here i am connecting the increase in miles to the neck pain not getting better in 6 months (that is the only constant - no other exercise save running more miles).
and as we all go through ---- do i stop running and see if the pain goes away. i can't seem to get away from that question.
i know this is thinking physically but i think this is my sticking point. |
| art |
Posted - 03/27/2006 : 14:53:13
It's a reasonable idea, wrld...Here's the thing though...A year ago my hamstring was in much worse shape than it is now...I kept running, and then, in open defiance of all conventional wisdom, took up the kickbike, a device known to involve the hammies even more than runnning...This took a bit of guts if I do say so, but I was thrilled when not only did it not get worse, it actually went away...
But now it's back. I've continued to ignore it (that is continued with my normal activities) but this time it's gone downhill..Nothing terrible, but worse is worse...
If this was my knee, or my ankle, or my heel, I'd not be nearly as worried about it...But there's something about both achilles and hammies that scare me..
Anyway, I went on a walk today (yuk), tomorrow will take that gentle run (at my age they're pretty much all "gentle" anyway)...We'll see how she responds and go from there...
My deal is that, given all the chronic illness I'm slowly recovering from these days, exercise is key for me...I have lots of anxiety around the prospect of that being curtailed in any significant way...At the same time, I'm keenly away that I simply cannot afford the kind of obsessive worry that I've been so prone to (to my great detriment and harm over the years)...
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| wrldtrv |
Posted - 03/27/2006 : 12:40:53
Art--By the top, you mean near the buttock, right? Mine is always at the back of the knee. In any case, both top and bottom are the tendons, which are more of a problem (poor blood supply). Of course, this is assuming a physical cause rather than TMS.
Why don't you try this experiment: You said the kickbike is very hard on the hamstring. So why not, for a month or so, not use it? See if the problem gets better with just gentle running. |
| Plantweed |
Posted - 03/27/2006 : 07:25:19
I just want to thank Baseball for his great posts here, they're funny and really helpful. |
| art |
Posted - 03/27/2006 : 05:37:03
It always bothers me at the top, which is sposed to be the worst place. One thing I never do anymore is look this crap up on the 'net as I always make myself crazy.
I've been active 5 or 6 days a week for months now, so I decided that 4 or 5 days off every 3 or 4 months is probably a good idea in any case...
After that I'll start running again, with the plan to start kickbiking again next week...
I wish I could recall reading about hamstrings in HBP or seeing more about them on the forum...It's one of those lonely, scary injuries..Still, my sense is I owe it to myself to move forward into the fear unless and until such time as it becomes worse... |
| wrldtrv |
Posted - 03/27/2006 : 00:05:31
Art--What part of your hamstring bothers you? The insertion into the knee, origin at buttock, or somewhere in the middle?
I went for my long run today (17 miles) despite my hamstring bothering me considerably more than usual. Of course, after a few miles of warming up plus the adrenalin, it no longer bothered me. Tomorrow, or more likely the next day, may be a different story.
I don't get it. Because it had been bothering me quite a bit lately I only ran one day last week, hoping it would heal. I iced it, took ibuprofen, didn't stretch it. Instead of getting better it seemed to get worse with inactivity. The conventional wisdom of giving it a break hasn't worked so maybe I wouldn't have anything to lose by doing the opposite (within reason). |
| art |
Posted - 03/26/2006 : 00:57:04
The only two injuries that frighten me these days are hamstrings and achilles.
Everything else I've had no problem completey blowing off.
Edit:kickbike is a scooter/bike hybrid...I highly recommend as cross training...great fun too....look on 'net |
| wrldtrv |
Posted - 03/25/2006 : 22:30:55
Of course your method makes perfect sense, Baseball. It's pretty well known in psychology nowadays that running from or avoiding a fear is the best way to increase it. So, yes, attacking it head on is the only way to go. Not easy, of course. But since obsessing and worrying has never worked for me, never disappeared a symptom or a fear, maybe I'll get serious about using your method.
Art, what's a kickbike? By the way, I can relate to your hamstring fear. The chronic hamstring tendonitis that I've had in the leg with the 20 y.o. partial rupture I talked about a month ago has also been bothering me the past week. Yes, I'm in the middle of marathon training, but the TIMING OF THE FLAREUPS DOES NOT ALWAYS MATCH THE TRAINING. That's the interesting thing.
I can understand your reluctance to "plunge back into" activity as I too tell myself, "well, maybe I ought to ice it, take ibuprofen, give it a few days." Add to that the fact that the hamstring is notoriously hard to heal and very easy to reinjure (a PT told me that), and it's not an easy decision. |
| art |
Posted - 03/25/2006 : 19:23:24
aargggh! (attempting to approximate the sound of a TMS'er in distress)
I do this baseball, this exact thing. In my case, it's almost counter-phobic. Walking into the fear seems better to me than enduring all that terrible obsessive anxiety and worry...So far it's worked every time...
Now, for the distress...I've had a hamstring relapse. As usual with my symptoms, it makes perfect sense as I've really been going at the runs/bike rides etc. extra hard. I took a ten mile kickbike ride which is hard on the hammies anyway...I'd had some hamstring soreness a week or so before that, and had been successfully ignoring it, until that last kickbike ride...then the next day had pain during my run and for tghe first time I became seriously worried...This time I thought I'd better take a couple of days off and that's what I've done..
But now I've had two full days rest and I've got a decision to make...Should I plunge back in? Should I take more time off? It's sometimes so very difficult to shake off the fear...
I know no one can answer this for me....Can be scary, no question about it,..I liked though, what you said about the human body being nearly limitless in its abilities and powers...
As I said at the beginning of this post...
Arrrrrggh! |
| Baseball65 |
Posted - 03/25/2006 : 06:11:58
Disclaimer...This advice would only scare someone who wasn't fairly well schooled in "Sarno-isms"
I think it was Stryder ???...way back posted a link to a group who had come up with an effective therapy to abort panic attacks.It was called 'the Miami Protocol' or something like that.
A clinic had instructed their patients (all panic attack sufferers) that when they felt an attack coming on,rather than try to fight it or treat it,instead to encourage it....to taunt the symptoms and their implications.
The next time I felt a panic attack coming on,I remembered what was written on that web page...I said to myself "Oh yeah...I'm really going to freak out now...I hope I end up babbling to myself locked in a padded room somewhere..or maybe my hearts going to stop..I'm going to help it out right now by running across the parking lot ..."
It worked! In fact it happened again right before Xmas this year..I was in Lowes(I work in construction)..I was with a very TMS instigating slow,lolli-gagging co-worker...It's all very easy to see now,though at the time I was clueless as to how anxious his relaxed demeanor towards work was making me!He was the slowest man on earth...I am like a rabbit..twitchy and fast.
So...I ended up sprinting into the parking lot and roaring at the top of my lungs.Perhaps the dramatics might not be as appropriate with your occupation,but it was quite effective.I kept telling myself: "I want to go to the emergency room and waste 5 hours for nothing...I want to blow it and make a complete ass of myself(which I probably was)"
..so I have transfered this same sort of idea to mystery aches and pains as well.
quote:
And because I cannot disprove that scenario beyond the shadow of doubt, it has power over me.
This might help you disprove it...People with shoulder problems can't do push-ups,or Box,or do military presses...Maybe help crack the veneer.
..so if I had a shoulder 'flare' the first thing I would do is roll out of bed and do 30 push-ups.I'd say "Yeah baby...tore my rotator cuff...I want to make sure that when they're doing that Tommy John Surgery that it's good and torn,so I'm going to really F-it up ..and GOOD!"..Than I might life some weights,but mostly focus on excercises that stress the shoulder.
Now,this is not altogether too much different from what I did when I first recovered from the majority of my symptoms back in '99...I had been told (never mind my OWN paranoia) that I risked paralysis if I ever even jogged again.I was walking thru the park in Agony when it occured to me that I never walked through the park until I had been 'injured'...I never 'took it easy'...so I broke into a sprint.The pain didn't go away,but it didn't get worse,which they had forecasted!
I 'challenged the notion of injury' I didn't actually taunt it or get cocky...rather,I proceeded and ignored it.This more dramatic method that is fundamentally the same idea, is sort of a 'Zen' instantaneously abortive method of the same concept....However,once again,I'd only recommend it to someone with a history of getting and recovering from TMS symptoms.
anyways..hope that helps.I've found it to be very effective,particularly the earlier in the symptomology....it sort of 'shames and ridicules' the symptoms away
-bb65pm |
| wrldtrv |
Posted - 03/24/2006 : 22:55:20
Forgot to mention...for me, in the above example (shoulder tightness), the worst case scenario is not rotator cuff problem, but neuro problem. Because of previous scares in that regard (see older posts) I am paranoid that any new bodily symptom that can't immediately be attributed to something else is neuro-related. That, despite all the tests, all the assurances in the past that there is no evidence of ANYTHING. |
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