| T O P I C R E V I E W |
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Posted - 03/14/2006 : 15:09:57
Is it true? Can you absolutely know it's true?
Thinking about the source of pain (written by Peter McKay- March 14, 2006)
I think many times I blindly accept my thoughts instead of questioning them to see whether they are true or not.
Thought appears-------------> I can either accept it as being true or examine it to see if it is true for me or not.
In Byron Katie's experience, after examining every thought she had, she found every one of them to be untrue for her without exception. She is the author of "Loving What Is." This being the case, I ask the question "is this true also for my thoughts?" Are the thoughts I think true for me? Let's look at this more closely:
Thought appears: "The pain is due to a physical problem you have and certain movements will induce more pain." So, let me inquire about this thought asking four questions:
1) Is it true? Is it true that "The pain is due to a physical problem you have and certain movements will induce more pain." On the surface of it it seems to be true as there appears to be a correspondence between certain movements and the onset of pain.
2) Is it really true? Can you absolutely know that it is true? When the question is asked more strongly it forces me to inquire more deeply before answering. I have to say that no, I cannot know for sure that my pain is due to a physical cause or that certain movements will induce more pain.
3) How do I re-act when I think the thought that "The pain is due to a physical problem you have and certain movements will induce more pain." The answer to that question is obvious. When I think the thought that "The pain is due to a physical problem you have and certain movements will induce more pain," I act accordingly. Every time I do something to avoid pain I am telling myself that I believe the thought that "The pain is due to a physical problem you have and certain movements will induce more pain." In other words, I buy into what my thoughts are telling me instead of questioning and ultimately challenging them through inquiry to see if they are really true.
4) Who would I be without the thought that "The pain is due to a physical problem you have and certain movements will induce more pain?" Well, I would do anything without restrictions, without any fear and would not give my movements a second thought.
That's right!!! Any anything I do to avoid pain- such as avoidance of certain movements- as I stated previously, is sending a message to myself that I believe that "The pain is due to a physical problem you have and certain movements will induce more pain." I am acting on thoughts that are not even true!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Now, let me do the turn around statement to see if it is as true or truer than they original statement that "The pain is due to a physical problem you have and certain movements will induce more pain." Turned around reads:
- My pain is not due to a physical problem or to certain movements
- My pain is due to my thinking the thought that "The pain is due to a physical problem you have and certain movements will induce more pain."
Is that as true or even truer than my original statement?
Sometimes we live in the hell of our own thoughts and accept them blindly instead of subjecting them to inquiry. These four questions above and the turn arounds can be used on any thought or circumstance you encounter in life....
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| 20 L A T E S T R E P L I E S (Newest First) |
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Posted - 03/22/2006 : 08:13:31
That is a good way of putting it John. You understand Byron Katie's work very well. It is when we indentify with our thoughts without question and resist or argue with reality (what is) that we expend a lot of energy and create for ourselves a personal hell. It all begins in the mind. I would guess that every thought we ever had in our lives was in fact untrue. When Byron Katie did the work on herself she found this to be the case for her. She actually clearly states that suffering is optional.
One good thing about this process is that it gets us to focus on our thoughts and away from the physical, which is a core treatment strategy for recovering from TMS. |
| gevorgyan |
Posted - 03/22/2006 : 00:23:41
Thank you Peter and John!
So, all you have written, step by step, falls into place. We are "elaborating" this of our minds (double/divided, as you wish) which firstly, generated anger, the second, stored it, as a reason of our physical symptoms. Using the Healthy Mind we work on the Problematic one. And the use of these four questions is excellent idea to do it!
And now journaling has sense for me, at last!
We must improve the wrong perception of world, done by our Problematic Mind. We must become a psychotherapist of our weaker mind.
M
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| JohnD |
Posted - 03/21/2006 : 17:42:07
Adding to what Peter said in the last post about the hypothetical thought "my parents were never proud of me"
After you identify that the statement isn't completely true, you can ask what is closer to the truth.
My thought process goes something like this
Old thought "my parents were never proud of me"
"is this really true, no i don't think so....so what is closer to the truth?"
"i think its closer to the truth that sometimes my parents were proud of me and sometimes they weren't"
then after coming up with a statement that is closer to the truth, its important to face the worst possible scenario. so by facing up the fact that my parents may not have been proud of me allows me to stop fretting over it because I am in the process of coming to terms with the worst outcome
"ok even though my parents may not be proud of me doesn't mean its the end of the world. they are allowed to have their own opinions just as I am allowed to have mine, and I can still be proud of me"
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Posted - 03/21/2006 : 12:39:00
Monica
All of us have thoughts that enter our minds. It is when we become identified with those thoughts and accept them without question is where our suffering lies. All suffering begins in our minds.
For example, let me take the thought "my parents were never proud of me." One can choose to believe that which will bring about an associated reaction or we can question that thought through the four questions.
Thought appears-"my parents were never proud of me."
Is it true? Is it true that "my parents were never proud of me."
Can I absolutely know that it is true that "my parents were never proud of me?"
How do I re-act when I think the thought that "my parents were never proud of me?"
Who would I be without the thought that "my parents were never proud of me?" And can you think of one peaceful reason to hold unto the thought that "my parents were never proud of me?"
Now, after answering those questions honestly to yourself, you might want to consider an opposite statement from your original statement to see if that is as true or truer for you.
For example, "my parents were never proud of me" could become:
My parents were proud of me
or
I was never proud of me
or
My thinking was ever proud of me.
The point Monica is to question your thoughts and do not accept them blindly. Don't automatically identify with what your mind is telling you. |
| gevorgyan |
Posted - 03/21/2006 : 02:50:15
Peter,
I am thinking about all of this more and more, and of course maybe my lack of fluency in English impedes me to catch all of meaning.
BUT…
Should not we, let me say, “virtue” (analyzing of true and assurance of though)
the though that we identified as a source of our rage. Is that what you meant?
i.e. Is it true that my parents were never proud of me. e.t.c.
only this make sense for me, and it should be comparatively easy to deny each of though associated with our anger, disappointment, rage, whatever as we call it.
PETER was it your point from the beginning?
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| AriG00 |
Posted - 03/20/2006 : 17:13:47
I read her books about a year ago, and they were very helpful.
I think it's a great idea to combine the treatment part of this
condition with her work, it makes perfect sense, in fact just
for today I did it, and I feel a lot better, I will definitely
include it into my daily journaling and routine. I think a lot
of "self help" books are very similar, but from my experience
the most simple ones make the most sense, nothing is
really that complicated, but it can definitely appear so.
quote:
Originally posted by PeterMcKay
Is it true? Can you absolutely know it's true?
Thinking about the source of pain (written by Peter McKay- March 14, 2006)
I think many times I blindly accept my thoughts instead of questioning them to see whether they are true or not.
Thought appears-------------> I can either accept it as being true or examine it to see if it is true for me or not.
In Byron Katie's experience, after examining every thought she had, she found every one of them to be untrue for her without exception. She is the author of "Loving What Is." This being the case, I ask the question "is this true also for my thoughts?" Are the thoughts I think true for me? Let's look at this more closely:
Thought appears: "The pain is due to a physical problem you have and certain movements will induce more pain." So, let me inquire about this thought asking four questions:
1) Is it true? Is it true that "The pain is due to a physical problem you have and certain movements will induce more pain." On the surface of it it seems to be true as there appears to be a correspondence between certain movements and the onset of pain.
2) Is it really true? Can you absolutely know that it is true? When the question is asked more strongly it forces me to inquire more deeply before answering. I have to say that no, I cannot know for sure that my pain is due to a physical cause or that certain movements will induce more pain.
3) How do I re-act when I think the thought that "The pain is due to a physical problem you have and certain movements will induce more pain." The answer to that question is obvious. When I think the thought that "The pain is due to a physical problem you have and certain movements will induce more pain," I act accordingly. Every time I do something to avoid pain I am telling myself that I believe the thought that "The pain is due to a physical problem you have and certain movements will induce more pain." In other words, I buy into what my thoughts are telling me instead of questioning and ultimately challenging them through inquiry to see if they are really true.
4) Who would I be without the thought that "The pain is due to a physical problem you have and certain movements will induce more pain?" Well, I would do anything without restrictions, without any fear and would not give my movements a second thought.
That's right!!! Any anything I do to avoid pain- such as avoidance of certain movements- as I stated previously, is sending a message to myself that I believe that "The pain is due to a physical problem you have and certain movements will induce more pain." I am acting on thoughts that are not even true!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Now, let me do the turn around statement to see if it is as true or truer than they original statement that "The pain is due to a physical problem you have and certain movements will induce more pain." Turned around reads:
- My pain is not due to a physical problem or to certain movements
- My pain is due to my thinking the thought that "The pain is due to a physical problem you have and certain movements will induce more pain."
Is that as true or even truer than my original statement?
Sometimes we live in the hell of our own thoughts and accept them blindly instead of subjecting them to inquiry. These four questions above and the turn arounds can be used on any thought or circumstance you encounter in life....
G |
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Posted - 03/20/2006 : 14:35:23
Compulsive Identification With Thinking
Excerpt From Monte Hueftle's book "Get Rid Of The Pain In Your Butt Now." (pages 72-74)
.....almost everyone is suffering from some kind of compulsive
identification with thinking. We judge, we like, we
dislike, we become angry and have an outburst, we
try to control. We resist our life as it is now and go
searching for something or someone to save us. This
is the disease. We use our mind to go back into our
past and dig up some hurt and then seek revenge.
We resist what is happening now so we judge and
use our mind to go into the future where the perfect
job is waiting for us. Our mind creates endless
conflicts and problems and then provides us with
compulsive thought processes and activities to get
rid of them. We resist and try to change what is
happening now in the present moment, instead of
accepting and experiencing what is occurring within
our self.
Observe your mind! See for yourself! Can you
stop thinking? Can you stop judging? Can you stop
the internal dialogue whenever you want? If your
answer is no, then your mind is using you! Have you
ever listened to the dialogue in your mind? The voice
that comments, complains, judges, compares,
dislikes, rewinds to the past, and then fast forwards
to the future. You’re correct that this seems like
normal behavior because almost everyone is doing it.
This is what is causing our pain—insane,
compulsive, unconscious, toxic, repetitive,
energy draining mind activity. We are constantly
directing our energy outwards towards external
things and other people usually in an attempt to
repress our own emotions. So we weaken our
bodymind systems with this outward energy
draining and then we cause havoc throughout our
complex internal communication system by ignoring,
denying, and avoiding our feelings. Our internal
information signals, (energy) become stuck, stored,
blocked and chronically dysfunctional in their ability
to communicate properly throughout our system.
Blood flow becomes restricted, less oxygen is flowing
to our tissue and the result is physical pain,
depression, and a feeling of energy-less-ness. As a
result we become stuck in this compulsive cycle
repeating the same old thought patterns, focusing on
our injured bodies, listening to the past conditioning
on physical dysfunctions and either waiting or
searching for the miracle cure or doctor to fix us.
Does this frighten you? Are you intimidated to
know that your mind is using you? Or is it a relief to
know that this insane, energy draining, unconscious,
toxic mind activity is taking place and you can
reverse it?
Yes it is frightening and yes I think it is a relief to
know that this is happening. How do I free myself
from this energy draining mental activity?
By freeing your self from your mind. By being
“present, aware, and conscious”. By realizing that
you are not your mind. You are not the perfectionist,
judger, controller and ideal role player. These are
thought processes that your mind is using to control
you! Your mind is using you because you are
completely identified with your thoughts, mental
processes, and mind activities. Take some time now
to digest this information. Let it really sink in.
You free yourself from this insane,
unconscious, energy draining, pain causing
madness and heal your body by being
conscious present and aware.
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Posted - 03/20/2006 : 08:21:23
quote:
Originally posted by gevorgyan
So this is all revolve around the affirmation –repeat to believe, repeat and ensure to make it work, repeat to come true.
No, it is not what I had in mind, but if it works for you then please do pursue it. But the question comes back to this:
Is it true that that if you practice "affirmation –repeat to believe, repeat and ensure to make it work, repeat to come true" that this is what it takes to recover?
Can you absolutley know that it is true that if you practice "affirmation –repeat to believe, repeat and ensure to make it work, repeat to come true" that this is what it takes to recover?
How do you re-act when you think the thought that if you practice "affirmation –repeat to believe, repeat and ensure to make it work, repeat to come true" that this is what it takes to recover?
and finally,
Who would you be without the thought that if you practice "affirmation –repeat to believe, repeat and ensure to make it work, repeat to come true" that this is what it takes to recover?
Think about those answers carefully and look inside yourself to see what comes up. Question and challenge your thoughts Monica. Everything single thought that comes into your head subject them to these four questions. |
| gevorgyan |
Posted - 03/20/2006 : 08:03:52
So this is all revolve around the affirmation –repeat to believe, repeat and ensure to make it work, repeat to come true.
Why not?,
This is exactly like a pray.
Thank you for all.
When you are cured you will write the best handbook for people who want to get better.
I did not write“if” I wrote “when”
M
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Posted - 03/20/2006 : 07:51:31
Monica,
That is wonderful that you are willing to continue the discussion. It is also wonderful you have trust in God to help you. The point of our discussion is to move into the psychological realm as per Dr. Sarno's recommendation. How we specifically do that is up to us and I have chosen the work of Byron Katie, but others my find othr books helpful which is fine too.
The reality is that many times thoughts enter our minds and we believe those thoughts without question. But when we subject these thoughts to inquiry (questioning) almost every time they are actually found to be untrue. Read my original post to get a taste of what I am trying to convey. Once we believe those thoughts we tend to act accordingly and we place ourselves in a prison or personal hell. Again, questioning these thoughts and challenging them seems to be only way out of this personal prison. |
| n/a |
Posted - 03/20/2006 : 07:42:02
JohnD
I have broken a lot of barriers in my road to recovery. Still a way to go yet though:)
Thanks for asking |
| JohnD |
Posted - 03/19/2006 : 14:13:47
Peter,
how is your recovery going? I like the article you wrote and actually used a similar process to aid me in my recovery from tms |
| gevorgyan |
Posted - 03/19/2006 : 04:45:20
Peter,
I have slept on all you had written and I think I am now little bid closer of what you meant.
Also I want to apology all of you here for being maybe too aggressive.
What I found is that I more believe in tomorrow pain than that it is TMS and can simply go by, or than I can be cured by God.
So, this is not about 100% of being sure but about in what we really want to believe (and why?).
Peter I am interested in going deeper with you. I will make my email address available or we can make our consideration as previously. I will be delighted.
M
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| n/a |
Posted - 03/17/2006 : 15:06:45
Sandy
Your insightful statement that "feeling like you have to think correctly can only make you more nuts," is an important one. The stories we tell ourselves about what we must do or think in order to recover can actually be a hinderence to our recovery. It will be good to subject these assumptions to inquiry (questioning) to see how true they really are. The point is we can be a victim of our own thinking and lead a life of hell, or we can begin to question and confront our thinking. When you do this you will be very suprised at what you will find.
I am personally willing to go through this process when anyone on this forum using the four questions.
Peter
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| ssjs |
Posted - 03/17/2006 : 14:56:27
from what I see There is no need to express your anger "correctly" The main thing is knowing that there isn't anything wrong with your body.
The knowledge that there isn't anything structually wrong is the crux of the matter.
Of course it is good to know what is making you mad, but whether you can express it or not is not the whole answer.
I think psycho therapy is important at least for me...but feeling like you have to do think correctly can only make you more nuts.
Sandy |
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Posted - 03/17/2006 : 13:03:04
Thanks for sharing Monika. I would like to go deeper with you if you are interested.... |
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Posted - 03/17/2006 : 06:42:25
Atg,
Whew, you gave me a lot to think about and I would like to proceed further. The purpose here is to get you thinking about your thoughts, how you buy into them and begin the process of questioning to see whether they are true or not. I will not cover all over your points, but only your last paragraph.
You wrote: 1)"I need to find something. Some direction to go. Some way to be proactive.
2 If I'm not being proactive in my healing process, then I won't make progress.
3. If I don't make progress I'll always be in pain because there will be nothing to make me better."
Now I invite you to subject these thoughts to the the four questions separately and see what comes up. Think about them deeply and see how they may contribute to the slow recovery. Again, I am only asking with the view to getting you to think. Your answers not only help you, but all those who read them, including me.
Is it true?
Can you absolutley know it's true?
How do you react when you think that thought?
Who would you be without this thought?
These are important questions as they are challenging the set of assumptions you seem to have in your mind. Remember, it is the thoughts, and our believing them that is the problem, although it may not seem that way right now. But be patient and you will see eventually the wisdom behind this. I recommend you purchase Byron Katie's book "Loving What Is" - especially on CD - as the book will help you understand further what I am trying to do here.
I look foward to your answers. |
| gevorgyan |
Posted - 03/17/2006 : 05:59:43
Peter,
Human life is based on faith or assumptions, as you want.
Before I bundled on Sarno, I was confused and destroyed by going from doctor to doctor. Some of them kissed me off having seen person in my age, some said that they wished to had such a spine like I do, some shrugged their shoulders and tried to invented new names of illness. You can for sure imagine my growing rage, additionally my own parents were talking something about simulation. Soon nobody around was paying attention of what I talk about back pain and feeling faint. It became plain.
I am person far from panic behavior, but I felt that I need help, so I started looking for. There were massages, acupuncture with Tibetan medicine, Filipina healer, lot of medicines, balsams, folk method and herbs. I do not have to add what was the result.
There was even exorcist.
But every time I started to believe in something new, that will help for sure-that mobilization made me stronger.
(And as I look at my life back, I was “aiming” my life. I do not know if there is such a word in English, but I was living from event to event.
My childhood was screw up, I was living from one summer holidays till another, looking for possibility to leave family home for a month or two.)
This efforts were before I have red our favorite MBP. And working with my mind is like the latest link in chain, which I can do for myself on my own. The rest is in the Hands of God.
Achieving 100% of assurance in my assumption is for me as easy like growing my faith in God to the “seed” dimension, because this is enough to move the mountain, to heal myself and others. So, for me is better to focus all my efforts on the second issue.
Peter, if I would like to answer your questions according to my feeling we will for sure refute not only my assumption taken from Sarno, but also whole science at this world. And we will find immense amount of thought which can impede our recovery, progress and success.
And I will have no idea what to do apart from praying. My symptoms probably will be the same but I will leave this forum.
I think that alternative for one assumption should be another assumption but not lack of them.
About 100% sure of TMS-oposite: can anyone be 100% sure that in one’s body doesn’t develop cancer just now? Sorry for being drastic. But this question rules out our “cure”.
I really appreciate all your quest, but people all around the world believe in something that in most of cases has no logical dimension at all.
This forum has no sense, but we are going to enter it from time to time.
We are not dealing here with palpable and instant effects of healing in spite that Sarno said that only moving attention from body to mind should help. We are sharing pieces of information here, we are supporting a new guys. Because we BELIVIE that knowledge is our medicine. Non of us is 100% sure of that. All of us will be confused if you ask them this question.
Once more thank you for your impute. I mostly look for news from you here. Your passion is uncanny and it must lead somewhere.
Monika
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| atg |
Posted - 03/16/2006 : 18:20:27
Peter, I feel like these questions are getting deep, but I can understand them after several reads.
Again I ask the question, Is this true? Can you absolutley 100% know it's true that "Without that belief (that you must accept the diagnosis of TMS 100% in order to bring about a recovery), I wouldn't know where to go from here and I'd feel directionless and more hopeless?"
Again, no, I don't know this 100%. I feel like this is true because sometimes when I feel like I haven't really gotten better, and I hope to, then I need a reason why I haven't and how it's still possible that I can. I know I can't give up, and I need a direction to go. So finding a difference between what I believe and the way that Schechter and Donald Dubin say I have to believe is grounds for a direction.
How do you react when you think the thought that "Without that belief (that you must accept the diagnosis of TMS 100% in order to bring about a recovery), I wouldn't know where to go from here and I'd feel directionless and more hopeless?"
I suppose this thought causes me to hold onto this belief even more, because I'm scared of how lost I might feel if I didn't believe it.
And finally, who would you be without the thought that "Without that belief (that you must accept the diagnosis of TMS 100% in order to bring about a recovery), I wouldn't know where to go from here and I'd feel directionless and more hopeless?"
Wow. That's a lot of double negatives. I just can't wrap my mind around this. I don't know. Out of control maybe?
I need to find something. Some direction to go. Some way to be proactive. If I'm not being proactive in my healing process, then I won't make progress. If I don't make progress I'll always be in pain because there will be nothing to make me better. |
| n/a |
Posted - 03/16/2006 : 16:42:44
atg,
Thanks for responding to my questions.
Your answer confirms that you do not really believe one has to accept the diagnosis of TMS 100% in order to bring about a recovery, and you gave a concrete example. That's a good start.
You also stated that holding or being asked to hold the belief that one has to accept the diagnosis of TMS 100% in order to bring about a recovery makes you "feel bad about myself (by feeling like a failure.)" You also expressed that you were angry over the fact that you "CAN'T believe it 100%, and it makes me feel powerless because I feel helpless to bring that about."
You seem to be stuck, however, despite your first answer, on the belief that you must accept the diagnosis of TMS 100% in order to bring about a recovery and since you don't really believe it 100% you feel trapped and don't know what else to do. It seems to be a self fulfilling prophecy. "I don't believe 100% so I won't or can't recover."
You also hold the belief that you have to "somehow get myself to believe it more" and that "That not believing it enough is the reason I'm not getting better." You admitted that "Without that belief, I suppose I'd be someone who didn't put pressure on myself to always be better or perfect."
Ahhhhh, now here is the heart of the matter. If you did not hold the belief that you must accept the diagnosis of TMS 100% in order to bring about a recovery, then you would be "someone who didn't put pressure on myself to always be better or perfect."
So, it is the thought, and the buying into that thought which becomes a belief that is the problem.
You stated that "Without that belief, I wouldn't know where to go from here and I'd feel directionless and more hopeless."
Again I ask the question, Is this true? Can you absolutley 100% know it's true that "Without that belief (that you must accept the diagnosis of TMS 100% in order to bring about a recovery), I wouldn't know where to go from here and I'd feel directionless and more hopeless?"
How do you react when you think the thought that "Without that belief (that you must accept the diagnosis of TMS 100% in order to bring about a recovery), I wouldn't know where to go from here and I'd feel directionless and more hopeless?"
And finally, who would you be without the thought that "Without that belief (that you must accept the diagnosis of TMS 100% in order to bring about a recovery), I wouldn't know where to go from here and I'd feel directionless and more hopeless?"
I am only asking and your answers will help you and me both. Both of us are on the same path of self discovery. Thanks
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